Market Value Protest?

[Miller]

Yeah, wtf?!?! I need thousands of chalmon, and all yer here doing is chatting on the forum...

Thanks tho What Echo said is what I've been trying to get at. I currently have the resources to get just about anything (findable) at TT. I'm just trying to get other people to do it as a whole. Must of us do it anyhow with our friends, but not with people we don't know, and for good reason too (resellers). So, this thread is more of a 'lets bring all of us together' kinda thing.

~Red

Oh yeah, I have a tiny stash of Chalmon in storage so remind me when I log on next Red

 

[QuintusMagnus]

I like the idea of people veing nice to each other; the problem I have is finding who to be nice to. Let's see, the things I find in my loot a lot are all the oils, naturally; a fair bit of hide and skin, paint, iron, gazz, wools and all those extractors. I currently tt anything below 110% markup because it takes forever standing at Twin trying to offload all the crap. So if anyone wants such items for crafting, at TT-Price, I'd be happy to meet up and swap FL's...

...if anyone knows anyone who needs such stuff and can prove somehow that the someone won't just auction it all, lemme know

Hurrikane

This seems a further expansion upon my point early-no markups lead to a misallocation of resources which no one, from the Soviet Union all the way up through China finally giving up and working themselves towards a free market (with, oddly, their Communist party still in power...I wonder if anybody's told them what a walking hypocrit they've become?) doing it. Heck, there's a spot, take CHINA'S example.

Now, people need food. Lots of people need...lots of food. China has lots of people. China NEEDED lots of food. SO what did Chairman Mao do? Stripped property rights, had people move onto collective farms where, say, one farms corn, one farms rice, one farms chickens, etc...and trades them at no profit amongst themselves in the community. But...there's a problem. There was no free market allowing prices to be pushed up. So, if one farm failed...there was NO incentive for another to grow more to cover that loss. Nor was there an incentive to expand production. After all, if I give you ten ears of corn for a chicken, and I only need 1 chicken a week to eat for myself, well, why should I go and grow more than 10 ears of corn beyond my personal consumption? After all, if I grow 50 ears of corn, well, I can get 5 chickens, but I can't get a house with those chickens. I can't get a shirt. I CAN get...well, 10 ears of corn for each one of them, but then I'm back where I started. And if I, in fact, keep just growing my ten ears of corn extra and keep getting 1 chicken...what happens if the chickens die off? All the sudden I've got ten ears of corn, sure, but I'm not giving them to you! You can't give me a chicken! Get me a chicken and I'll get you your corn-but ya can't. Because they died. Disease just whacked 'em. YOU had a very BAD loot day, and now all the sudden you can't sustain that minimum level you'd been inevitably cruising at since you had no incentive to produce more than you needed back when the chickens were still strutting their stuff.

So all the sudden...you have no chickens and I have too much corn with nothing to do with it. My crops rot in the field unused while you starved.

Welcome to Mao's agricultural China, millions of famine victims, and the future of PE under a TT-only Communistic system that, if somehow implemented on a vast scale, will inevitably lead to the crippling of Entropia.

As nice as it sounds, is wrong. Lowering the markup does not mean at all screwing MA. MA are just host of the system. Lowering the markup screws only players.

Aside from that, I want to see the miner who brings hansidian for TT. Or gold. You say you have enoug materials for 10 fails on m2a, what happens if I want geotrek scorpius and you fail 10 times?

What happens if you loot 1 click of P5a unlimited (same design as (L) item), you'll sell it at same price as P5a(L), given same resources provided? What if you fail?

What you said with chicken vs. corn is flawed. Because not all chickens are the same and there's great deal of variety quality-wise among the various types of corn. Money had a good reason for appearing.

Moving to IRL, if would be service for service, why would anybody go and empty the chesspool or some very hard physical work? If you pay with same goods and same quantity two different levels of effort, what would motivate the one doing the harder effort?

Don't get me wrong, I am convinced that mercantilism was the greatest plague of humankind, but maybe evolution will naturally find a better way.

As in regard to EU, is a system where you know the rules, are there to be seen by all. If you don't like them, don't play. And, as I said, with your initiative, MindArk would only laugh their asses off. The only effect would be a guaranteed streamline of smaller deposits, I don't see how MA would be affected negatively.

Markup is the only guarantee that we won't end broke.

P.S.: what a hunter should do with a looted mod fap if there's no markup?

This was probably a more advanced way of expressing my chicken and corn example above, lol. kudos for sophistication. But good point, although I would point out that MA makes a BIT more on auction from people marking up their goods, but that's really the only kickback they get from it.

A lot of intereting comments trully show the people's inner thoughts.

Miller; I know you fairly well, and I completely understand what yer saying. The same goes for me though as well. If I have a bad run, well, shit happens, I hafta deposit too

Quintus; I'm not a communicst, I'm a hippie, get it straight And, I think MA does play nice, the participants are the ones that are evil.

Hurrikane; I should get you on my FL.

Legion; That's the spirit!

Kerham; What if gave you the bombs to go find Himi, and you came back with belkar? I do this all the time with friends, here's 100 bombs, go find me some <insert rare ore>, they come back with 90 ped of stuff I don't really really need.

Shadow; I really want to understand what yer trying to say, but I'm having a hard time getting the feel of it... could you please try again?

~Red

Communist...hippie...either way you're batting far enough off in left field to really have some ideas which are um...let's call it "economically unpopular."

Either way, as long as you don't hate NAFTA as much as Hillary and Barack are both pretending they do (even though the old serving wench's husband SIGNED the treaty!), you're alright enough. At least in that regard you wont be urging on the demise of capitalism lol.

 

[Legion]

Legion; That's the spirit!



~Red

Ye i know.. i tried for years to get sof to do something like this but sadly they dont like it or dont see the benefit in cooperation in this way, a great soc in any other way though

 

[Hurrikane]

Think it's just nice to imagine a world where profits are the just reward for a service, where mark-ups are legitimately set to reflect this reward, where honesty prevails and fair trading is conducted between good people. Shame the shits have to invade this place too, and make it the same cash-driven free-for-all as RL.

Hurrikane

 

[Harald]

mmm communism in eu

Now wonder he's got Red in his name

 

[B. Raygun Wanda]

Think it's just nice to imagine a world where profits are the just reward for a service, where mark-ups are legitimately set to reflect this reward, where honesty prevails and fair trading is conducted between good people. Shame the shits have to invade this place too, and make it the same cash-driven free-for-all as RL.

Hurrikane

Yes it's a pity, but I guess we just have to accept greed and back-stabbing as a parts of human nature. Virtual life just reflects RL.

Virtuality might even amplify these negative aspects...

 

[Dion Red Strike]

lol...

Quintus; Good post, lost of good points, but the chicken and corn example doesn't work in this universe. You go to make corn, and you get a chicken!

You can mine all day long for himi, and you end up with copper. You go back to that same place the next day for copper, and you get himi!

Legion; We need to meet up in game, and I'll introduce you to my friends.

Hurrikane; Amen brother, yer preaching to choir Definately need to hook with you sometime

Harald; lol (BTW, love the avatar). Red is a long story, but think of it more as the 'That 70's Show' Red

Wanda; I think you are right, the virtuality of it all makes it all too easy for epople to be total asses, and treat their fellow man like dogs. As the saying goes 'For the love of money is the root of all evil.” Timothy, 6:10. (And, I'm not a bible preacher, I just was trying to figure out who said it, and that's what I found.. )

~Red

 

[Harvest]

Think MA has tried really hard in the materials market to stabilize prices so crafters can craft certain low lvl items at almost a set mark up. And yes the mark up changes a bit weekly but not too much.

The other thing think crafters dont take into consideration all the time is this....
If a miner goes out and drops a 100bombs and comes back with 50 ped of lyst, then to him that lyst should be worth about 200% + decay+at least 1ped of profit for his time. In this scenerio MA has it set up so the miners are punching each other in the face too ONLY take a 48ped+decay and the 1 ped for effort LOSE because enough lyst is dropping that the crafters will be able to get it at 1.05.
This happens every day, so I personaly dont have a tear in my eye for crafters.

 

[Hurrikane]

The problem with implementing any system of fairness is that to do so is to deny yourself the greater profits that will come from following the overtly capitalist trends. Not many people subscribe to anything that will leave them poorer, whatever the greater good. No scheme based on generosity has succeeded, as there will always be those willing to sacrifice integrity for a fast dollar; and there will always be more of those people than those who just want to reach the end of each day with a smile on their face.

Or will there?

Trade fair, make regular contacts with those you trust, lose a few ped here and there in the cause of honesty, and ignore the high-priced temptations put there by the greedy to further fuel their driven ascension to be richer than the next guy; if everyone is quite happily skilling up on EWE-40's and Mk III Justifiers, the mega-boosted prices of the decent gear will fall, as demand to "keep up with the joneses" dissappears.

Look to your motives when buying stuff for thousands of dollars... is it truly what you need to maintain and improve your avatar's journey through this virtual universe, or are you just saying your dick's bigger for a year or two before your wild spending and forlorn hope of a return on it cause you to chip out and curse the game that refused to cater to your unrealistic aspirations.....?

Maybe, in time, the idiots will leave to find more rewarding pastimes, leaving the place to those who need no reward other than to play. Then we'll have built a world we can be proud of, one we'd send our kids into willingly, one where the odd bad seed is obvious and unable to operate... it might be worth a go.

Hurrikane

 

[alh]

You're free to sell at whatever price you want.
You can sell at TT+0 or sub-TT if you want, no problem, just yell it out at PA or Twin, I'm sure you will get tons of buyers.

And everyone else is also free to sell at whatever price they want, and the buyers are free to buy at whatever price they feel its worth, or not buy at all.

I don't see what your problem is really...

Its not the "rules of MA", its simply market dynamics...

What you cant expect though, without instituting a control state, with a strong police force, is to make everyone do as you...

 

[Gluepot]

Sounds nice in theory, but I can't do that.
I need to sell all my items for whatever markup I can get for them simply to get close to breaking even (and this is using very eco weapons with low markup).

I too craft things for people who bring me the supplies, I do it at no charge as well. However, I do not want to ignore market price, because that is the only thing that saves me.

When I go mining, I NEVER break even in the TT (based ONLY on bombs/probes used, not decays), I MUST sell for markup to get close to breaking even.

Point is: It's a nice thought, but it wouldn't work.

 

[QuintusMagnus]

Think it's just nice to imagine a world where profits are the just reward for a service, where mark-ups are legitimately set to reflect this reward, where honesty prevails and fair trading is conducted between good people. Shame the shits have to invade this place too, and make it the same cash-driven free-for-all as RL.

Hurrikane

mayhaps this is the "real" in "real cash economy?"

Ignoring the market manipulation (50% jumps in costs of goods from day to day caused by someone auctioning something off at 10,000% and then buying it on their "buddy's" account, etc.) involved, a free market accurately rewards people. If you are given what's perceived to be an unacceptably low return on your investment, well, you move on to an industry that will offer you an acceptable one. Thus, the market reallocates resources to meet the needs of the consumer. It's efficient.

Now wonder he's got Red in his name

In Union of Soviet Socialist Entropians, Game plays Yoouuuuu! lol

lol...

Quintus; Good post, lost of good points, but the chicken and corn example doesn't work in this universe. You go to make corn, and you get a chicken!

You can mine all day long for himi, and you end up with copper. You go back to that same place the next day for copper, and you get himi!

~Red

Yes. Hence you need a market with fluctuating rates of prices so that, when you fail to get himi, you can go to said market and purchase it if your marginal utility is high enough, instead of sitting back and watching as the himi-getting miner trades his himi for whatever crafted product YOU wanted, even though that person doesn't really want or need it (but has nothing else to do with it.)

Or, more generally, you can see this on an industry-wide scale. Call chickens "mining" and call corn "crafting," with the added option to go "hunting." If it's easier for you to get what you want hunting, you'll hunt and everyone else will hunt irregardless of whether those hunters NEED miners to mine to keep supplying the crafters with what's necessary to make the goods to HUNT with.

The markup drives market allocation via incentives.

The problem with implementing any system of fairness is that to do so is to deny yourself the greater profits that will come from following the overtly capitalist trends. Not many people subscribe to anything that will leave them poorer, whatever the greater good. No scheme based on generosity has succeeded, as there will always be those willing to sacrifice integrity for a fast dollar; and there will always be more of those people than those who just want to reach the end of each day with a smile on their face.

Or will there?

Trade fair, make regular contacts with those you trust, lose a few ped here and there in the cause of honesty, and ignore the high-priced temptations put there by the greedy to further fuel their driven ascension to be richer than the next guy; if everyone is quite happily skilling up on EWE-40's and Mk III Justifiers, the mega-boosted prices of the decent gear will fall, as demand to "keep up with the joneses" dissappears.

Look to your motives when buying stuff for thousands of dollars... is it truly what you need to maintain and improve your avatar's journey through this virtual universe, or are you just saying your dick's bigger for a year or two before your wild spending and forlorn hope of a return on it cause you to chip out and curse the game that refused to cater to your unrealistic aspirations.....?

Maybe, in time, the idiots will leave to find more rewarding pastimes, leaving the place to those who need no reward other than to play. Then we'll have built a world we can be proud of, one we'd send our kids into willingly, one where the odd bad seed is obvious and unable to operate... it might be worth a go.

Hurrikane

So you're saying that the...market will make things such that people who buy it because "they're bigger" and get mad and chip out will be phased out? Sounds like the market's already sorting the idiots from the players all by itself...hooray capitalism! =)

I think you're essentially moderating towards free trade vs. fair trade at this point, which is both a political catchword and a slightly different box of cracker jacks. "Fair trade," in essence, is a trade agreement with set tariffs and subsidies both against each other and against the outside world. It's a maintainable thing if you sell enough of your end-products to the outside...in essence, you end up becoming your own little company of miners and crafters. Yet, even then-you rely on a good return in the outside market to make your money, and you still realize the same shared profits as you would have otherwise, just with a slightly different distribution.

You're free to sell at whatever price you want.
You can sell at TT+0 or sub-TT if you want, no problem, just yell it out at PA or Twin, I'm sure you will get tons of buyers.

And everyone else is also free to sell at whatever price they want, and the buyers are free to buy at whatever price they feel its worth, or not buy at all.

I don't see what your problem is really...

Its not the "rules of MA", its simply market dynamics...

What you cant expect though, without instituting a control state, with a strong police force, is to make everyone do as you...

Behold the voice of reason...now Red, strike him down before he lures away your Comrades who don't want competition! =)

 

[Dion Red Strike]

Behold the voice of reason...now Red, strike him down before he lures away your Comrades who don't want competition! =)

Lol, gimme a min here, I still hafta respond to the other thread, and read it too :O

But, I'll try

You're free to sell at whatever price you want.
You can sell at TT+0 or sub-TT if you want, no problem, just yell it out at PA or Twin, I'm sure you will get tons of buyers.

And everyone else is also free to sell at whatever price they want, and the buyers are free to buy at whatever price they feel its worth, or not buy at all.

I don't see what your problem is really...

Its not the "rules of MA", its simply market dynamics...

What you cant expect though, without instituting a control state, with a strong police force, is to make everyone do as you...

Yes, I am free to sell at whatever price I want, and if you're a friend of mine, and of the same mindset as me, you more often than not get 'it' at tt.

And, no, I completely understand (if you read my posts, you'd know) that no one has to do the same as me, it is a free/fair market (semantics Quintus, really, I agree).

now onto this quote;

Think MA has tried really hard in the materials market to stabilize prices so crafters can craft certain low lvl items at almost a set mark up. And yes the mark up changes a bit weekly but not too much.

The other thing think crafters dont take into consideration all the time is this....
If a miner goes out and drops a 100bombs and comes back with 50 ped of lyst, then to him that lyst should be worth about 200% + decay+at least 1ped of profit for his time. In this scenerio MA has it set up so the miners are punching each other in the face too ONLY take a 48ped+decay and the 1 ped for effort LOSE because enough lyst is dropping that the crafters will be able to get it at 1.05.
This happens every day, so I personaly dont have a tear in my eye for crafters.

You are indeed correct. Shit happens some days... Did you ever try crafting an h49 at 99 ped per click (yes, trully, 99 ped per click)? Try doing it about 10 times, and only have 2 successes. Then, expect the 'market' to pay you %500 to cover your expenses, when the market is only willing to pay %200.

I'm sorry that sometimes (more often than not) you lose while mining, really, I am. But, I lose at crafting too, probably to a greater extent, because you are not losing markup on your bombs, while I'm losing markup on my materials.


Now, next quote (and I'm gonna hafta hurry, dinner is almost done)

I need to sell all my items for whatever markup I can get for them simply to get close to breaking even (and this is using very eco weapons with low markup).

I completely understand. But, would you be 'breaking even' if you were paying $20/month to play another game? I personally find a $20 loss in a month VERY acceptable. But, I break even or profit, as long as markup isn't involved..
---
Now, back to Quintus,

I understand your need to play devils advocate here, or 'rational' person as you may see it, but, to me, the rationality behind charging people markup just doesn't make sense to my karma. I know that if I 'do unto others as I would have done unto myself', I will end up ahead in the end. And, it IS my experiance in EU this is very true.

So, put on your tinfoil hat and join the darkside

~Red

 

[Hardicus]

Personally I like the idea Red. What is your COS like on the X1?

 

[Shaggy]

Shaggy try look up anarcho syndalism itl broaden your perspective im sure other then that your right

Try to look it up? I'm working for my PhD in Political Science.

 

[Gluepot]

I completely understand. But, would you be 'breaking even' if you were paying $20/month to play another game? I personally find a $20 loss in a month VERY acceptable. But, I break even or profit, as long as markup isn't involved..

I don't deposit AT ALL.....So the $20/month is out of the question anyways. If you break even or profit without markup, then congratulations, I am very happy for you. However, not all of us are as lucky. For example, I am currently doing an opalo hunt experiment on Snables. There is no markup for the gun, no markup for the amp, no markup for the ammo. Even selling the Pixie pieces with a small markup, the hunt is not breaking even.
If you'd like to donate $20/month for me to live on, more power to you. But I can't deposit it, much less LOSE 200 ped a month. Sorry

 

[Dion Red Strike]

Personally I like the idea Red. What is your COS like on the X1?

I'm in the green

Try to look it up? I'm working for my PhD in Political Science.

lol

I don't deposit AT ALL.....So the $20/month is out of the question anyways. If you break even or profit without markup, then congratulations, I am very happy for you. However, not all of us are as lucky. For example, I am currently doing an opalo hunt experiment on Snables. There is no markup for the gun, no markup for the amp, no markup for the ammo. Even selling the Pixie pieces with a small markup, the hunt is not breaking even.
If you'd like to donate $20/month for me to live on, more power to you. But I can't deposit it, much less LOSE 200 ped a month. Sorry

Smile, you'll global soon (And don't forget, skills have a TT value too)

 

[Gluepot]

Smile, you'll global soon (And don't forget, skills have a TT value too)

Yeah....Skills have the same TT value as the ESI you chip them out on lol. No use in counting skills if we don't count markup =\
And even counting skills, I'm not profiting on snables at the moment.

 

[Moonfish]

Hummmm

humm interesting thread,

I diddnt like the thread to start, but there has been alot of interesting comments and view's and its turned into an interesting read....

Here's my 2 pec's

Societies, from the day we began one, I thought were set up partly to share - So you may have a soc Crafter/Miner/Hunter & each also enjoyed differnt parts to it be it a matter miner or a Crafter tailor - other nice parts to soc's are the shareing of experience, the fun of the chase and team work (as well as having friends to chat too and meet up with).

I think many soc's pass along there goods, knowing that there pal is trusted, and hay, what are friends for...

But when it comes to strangers, its differnt, it takes time to build up trust and relationships dont grow on tree's. (Olives do ) I love olives.

This idea of giving Red the materials and he crafting them, isn't new, I've been doing it for years, it's very kind of Red to offer to keep clicking after the materials run out, infact very kind, in not nieve (you put in $1 million in to that crafting machine, you wont win $2 Million i bet my mums Pants you wont, you wont even win $1 miillion back, if you do it will because 1 item has a mark up, and what do you do with that sell it for TT.

It's so simple:

• Give the materials to your pal who's a Crafter
• He has the skills to do as well as anyone
• You know him & trust him
• He crafts them
• He keeps all Hof's ect -
• You get the items - as these are what you are after

Along time ago, the week i wanted to open a clothes shop in my apartment, I asked a crafter to craft me 5 of each of certain clothes, I gave her the materials to make 10 of each. Next day she turned up with like 3 of each and also informed me i owed her another 1ooo ped, as she had a bad run and she added more materials.. I went mad, I lost ok, but i diddnt expect to have to pay more for the loss, a lesson learned (she later turned out to be a big time scammer, & no I diddnt pay her the 1K, I wasnt so nieve even then).

Anyway,
One point, you said red, you use to loose money before you used this system & now you do well, so its good for you, in money terms, basically you playing with other peoples money, and they get there item and you get the skills and bp drops ect - like a bank stock broker, its not your money.

God knows where all this conversation went too about communism, Red is saving money, he has a nice simple idea that helps him to save Money, The word money keeps popping up, he's doing it for free, yes, but it still costs money, just not his....

Good luck with it Red, however this is going on all the time and has been for years, nothing really very new...

Regards
Moonfish


PS
Maybe you can do a deal on long runs and share the Hof's, you will have to know your friend better & have trust

Ok, now that i have your attention (the word protest always brings in lots of views)

I'm tired of paying a % more of what materials cost. I can't effectively craft stuff on the open market for tt+0 (or even tt+1 because of auction minimum fee) because of this.

I would LOVE to supply the hunters with m2a's at tt, or x1's at tt....

I would LOVE to craft Z25's and sell em for TT, or Ju25's or WHATEVER I CRAFT at TT...

But, because of 'market value', I can't do this. I have to charge what it costs me to make (which is usually less than the market value, so I sell at current market value)...

I have an idea, that my friends all agree with... let's all lose/make money at the same rate... screw markup completly..... Now I realize resellers would be completely out of a job, and they'd actually hafta contribute to the community, so maybe they can sweat, and drive prices even farther down on that so we can have more MF'n MF'ers

But, anyhow, if you bring me the mats to do 3 clicks on any bp that I have, plus whatever other item with a market value of more than TT to cover the entire cost of the full TT of the item, I will gladly make it for you and give it to you... (if you want more specifics, pm me or ask)...if more people do this, less markup for everyone...

Now, there's another problem here, some hunters don't mine, and some miners don't hunt, but some things require some of both professions... so, more people need to work together... miners sell your stuff to hunters for tt, hunters, sell your stuff for tt to miners.

Note that I realize too many greedy people around for this actualy to work on a scale big enough to lower the markup economy (and 'crash' the markup economy), but, maybe, just maybe, I could get enough people with me, so that those of us working together profit/lose at the same rate

I should personally note, since I've been using the TT thing with my friends, my in game expenses have actually lowered to the point that I'm actually profiting while doing stuff like hunting and mining. Before, when I paid markup on items I used/crafted with, I was losing my ASS off.. now, I usually break even or am up day to day, with a fairly nice profit over the span of a week.

Let me know if yer in

~Red

 

[Konve]

I still don't understand how you would make this work, Red. See here:

...

I would LOVE to supply the hunters with m2a's at tt, or x1's at tt....

...

But, anyhow, if you bring me the mats to do 3 clicks on any bp that I have, plus whatever other item with a market value of more than TT to cover the entire cost of the full TT of the item, I will gladly make it for you and give it to you... (if you want more specifics, pm me or ask)...if more people do this, less markup for everyone

...

m2a takes 6,4 PED per click. That's only TT, so it's > 6,4 PED with markup. Still if I bring you those 6,4*3 that's 19,2 PED. And now you want me to pay TT value for the item, that's another 39 PED. In total that's over 58 PED, or >149%, for an m2a that I can buy on auction for 115%.

Am I right in assuming I am missing something here?

 

[QuintusMagnus]

Lol, gimme a min here, I still hafta respond to the other thread, and read it too :O

But, I'll try




Yes, I am free to sell at whatever price I want, and if you're a friend of mine, and of the same mindset as me, you more often than not get 'it' at tt.

And, no, I completely understand (if you read my posts, you'd know) that no one has to do the same as me, it is a free/fair market (semantics Quintus, really, I agree).

now onto this quote;

You are indeed correct. Shit happens some days... Did you ever try crafting an h49 at 99 ped per click (yes, trully, 99 ped per click)? Try doing it about 10 times, and only have 2 successes. Then, expect the 'market' to pay you %500 to cover your expenses, when the market is only willing to pay %200.

I'm sorry that sometimes (more often than not) you lose while mining, really, I am. But, I lose at crafting too, probably to a greater extent, because you are not losing markup on your bombs, while I'm losing markup on my materials.


Now, next quote (and I'm gonna hafta hurry, dinner is almost done)

I completely understand. But, would you be 'breaking even' if you were paying $20/month to play another game? I personally find a $20 loss in a month VERY acceptable. But, I break even or profit, as long as markup isn't involved..
---
Now, back to Quintus,

I understand your need to play devils advocate here, or 'rational' person as you may see it, but, to me, the rationality behind charging people markup just doesn't make sense to my karma. I know that if I 'do unto others as I would have done unto myself', I will end up ahead in the end. And, it IS my experiance in EU this is very true.

So, put on your tinfoil hat and join the darkside

~Red

LoL, you've been busier than I have lately, it seems. Very interesting.

And yes, we do agree on the one thing, approximately and with reservations =) lol

I play the devil's advocate because I see the free market function and it WORKS! I'm not a "don't rock the boat" person, I'm a "the other boat already sank, and others that launch based on its principles will economically flounder!" I'm huge on logic and reasoning, and so I WANT there to be other systems out there that radically challenge my views and hold up to closer scrutiny so that I can adapt my knowledge and grow...but honestly, the system you're advocating from an economist's side...it just doesn't make economic sense in the big picture. If you were running it as a small "company" (which it appears more and more that you might be), that's one thing, but to try to get everybody or most everybody onboard...it's just not feasible. If there's somethng I'm missing, please tell me. That's part of why I roam around touting a free market economy so much on these boards-it's the best system I know of, and I want to see someone else successfully smack it around so I can deduce whether or not they're right. Try to form a "more perfect (economic) union," and all that.

On the small scale, your system may work as a thing amongst friends-but even so, it wont yield as high a return in an economic sense as would a free and open market action.

Tinfoil hats are for crazy people! Take down the big mural of yourself and stop telling them big brother is watching! =)

(Incidentally, I just finished reading 1984 about a month ago. Unfortunately I'm wrapped up in a lot of schoolwork right now, but this summer I plan on laying my hands on a copy of das Kapital to further my economic knowledge, not because I'll agree with Karl Marx, but that, if I don't agree, I may find out "why?")

 

[Dion Red Strike]

I still don't understand how you would make this work, Red. See here:



m2a takes 6,4 PED per click. That's only TT, so it's > 6,4 PED with markup. Still if I bring you those 6,4*3 that's 19,2 PED. And now you want me to pay TT value for the item, that's another 39 PED. In total that's over 58 PED, or >149%, for an m2a that I can buy on auction for 115%.

Am I right in assuming I am missing something here?

no silly, bring me 19.8 ped silly (39 minus 19.2). At current market value, that would be 44.37 ped (as it turns out, fairly close to current market value, but lower). Now, an X1 costs 99.5 ped (tt) or 159.71 ped (market) to craft. 3 clicks would equal 298.5 and 479.13 respectively. a difference of 180.63 ped per 3 attempts....The current market value is 192.81%, or 750 ped for a full tt x1 (390 ped is full tt). That's a difference of 360 ped from full tt to markup. Now, when crafting an x1, unless you hof, it's not gonig to be full tt, so residue will be required. I have no clue how much residue, but, if you were to bring the animal oil res from hunting, which you would normally TT, I would use that to make the gun. So, you pay 298.5 (in mats) + 91.5 ( in residue) to get a 390 ped gun. or, 479.13 (market value mats) + 91.5 ( in residue) for a 390 ped tt gun, which is value at 750 ped, you just saved 179.37 ped, I didn't make 179.37 ped. I may have made 2-3 guns (yeah, right), I may have made 0 with your mats, and had to put another 99.5 or 181 ped even to make you one, but either way, neither of us is really losing, imho.


Moonfish;
I'll explain how we should all be maing money in that other thread about 'not so noob anymore'.


Quintus;
Reading is good for you. I like my tinfoil hat. And, I am enjoying having someone smart enough to be able to debate me. Even though I completely disagree with your point of view from a personal stand point, I could easily take your side of the arguement. It's an easy side to argue around here

So, let me try to reword what I'm saying, taking the economy out of your mind...

Assume we are all going to gain or lose as much ped as the guy beside us. This 'game' is not gambling, it's a service in which we all pay the same fee. Why should you pay my fee to play? (Markup on an x1, looking at example above)

~Red

 

[QuintusMagnus]

no silly, bring me 19.8 ped silly (39 minus 19.2). At current market value, that would be 44.37 ped (as it turns out, fairly close to current market value, but lower). Now, an X1 costs 99.5 ped (tt) or 159.71 ped (market) to craft. 3 clicks would equal 298.5 and 479.13 respectively. a difference of 180.63 ped per 3 attempts....The current market value is 192.81%, or 750 ped for a full tt x1 (390 ped is full tt). That's a difference of 360 ped from full tt to markup. Now, when crafting an x1, unless you hof, it's not gonig to be full tt, so residue will be required. I have no clue how much residue, but, if you were to bring the animal oil res from hunting, which you would normally TT, I would use that to make the gun. So, you pay 298.5 (in mats) + 91.5 ( in residue) to get a 390 ped gun. or, 479.13 (market value mats) + 91.5 ( in residue) for a 390 ped tt gun, which is value at 750 ped, you just saved 179.37 ped, I didn't make 179.37 ped. I may have made 2-3 guns (yeah, right), I may have made 0 with your mats, and had to put another 99.5 or 181 ped even to make you one, but either way, neither of us is really losing, imho.


Moonfish;
I'll explain how we should all be maing money in that other thread about 'not so noob anymore'.


Quintus;
Reading is good for you. I like my tinfoil hat. And, I am enjoying having someone smart enough to be able to debate me. Even though I completely disagree with your point of view from a personal stand point, I could easily take your side of the arguement. It's an easy side to argue around here

So, let me try to reword what I'm saying, taking the economy out of your mind...

Assume we are all going to gain or lose as much ped as the guy beside us. This 'game' is not gambling, it's a service in which we all pay the same fee. Why should you pay my fee to play? (Markup on an x1, looking at example above)

~Red

Yes, reading is good. Honestly I spend much of my earlier years reading junk with random bursts of english literature, but I've also read Plato's Republic, Machiavelli's The Prince, and Sun Tzu's Art of War, to name a few. I'm actually reading Greenspan's book atm (don't kill me, I still respect the guy as much as I don't like how he handled post 9/11, or for that matter, what Bernanke's done in the short period since...) and 1984 I finished obviously, so next up on the plate as I get time are das Kapital and and Adam Smith's "On the Wealth of Nations."-I figured it'd be good to see how much of a counterpoint they were to each other. However, due to time constraints, I likely wont finish that stretch until the end of the year, methinks.

Interesting approach. The most straightforward answer is "because society deems that people of all spending classes should have access to basic resources"-thus making my payment a kind of welfare system.

The market economist's view, however, is that 1) doing so will allow a person in a position of better market leverage to make an economic profit until such point as the rest of the economy readjusts, thereby forcing us all to become more efficient, and 2) because in your example I'd be a consumer and you'd be a wage earner and/or capital owner. I find I have a high utility for a certain product, therefore I'm willing to pay more for it. Upon buying it from you, I now have a product I deem to be worth that money and attempt to use it in such a way as to gain real or intrinsic benefit (even if that's just "looking cool while relaxing") and you now have the marked-up money from that item to compensate you for the difficulty in procuring the sale along with the further cost of production. The markup is a measure of your chance of success in procuring the item along with the demand for the good. If you sell it below market, you're implying that the item was not as hard to procure or that you predict demand isn't as high as the market is currently predicting, and if that is the case, then people will buy from you, turn around, and sell it at the going rate, earning a narrow profit over yours. You mitigate the risk of failure to sell, but forego that marginal profit. As this happens over and over in an economy, prices rise or fall depending on the factors, and thus a market equilibrium is established. So while I'm paying you to procure a good for more than what it cost you to find it-you're paying me with the good and merely charging for the demand for your services. The amount I value the time and difficulty it would take in buying that good is equal to the amount I'm willing to pay for it-charge to little and you miss out on profit, charge too much and you miss out on a sale.

Thus my money is transferred to you because it's my belief that my TIME is better spent elsewhere.

Of course, you already ruled out the gambling, but even so, the difficulty/risk of "finding" the good is a factor as mentioned above in that price.

After all, as you said, you might fail all three clicks. Thus I'm not buying your three clicks, I'm buying a good produced by your clicking over time, which thus has a cost of failure averaged into it instead of a pure win/lose style.

 

[Dion Red Strike]

I told ou keep the economy out of it

Ok, I completely understand that time is money, and by saving you time, I shoudl thereby charge you more money. Makes complete sense to me. And, on the opposite hand, your time is worth money, so hunting for adv. scanning sensors take your time, therefor, you should charge me as well.

But, I value my time, and you value your time. Does either of us have an arguement where either's time is worth more than the others?

But, you miss the 'mood' of my points, or possibly just what I believe to be true hasn't been communicated enough (I know, "Faith" isn't in an economists vocabulary). So, I will communicate it here, and then once again in that other thread (later today or tonight with the appropriate documentation).

Mindark provides us both with a service. The service is twofold; 1) entertainment and 2) security of our 'funds' in game.

I know that if I put $1000 into the game, I will be able to get that $1000 out of the game minus the service fee(s). These fees are fees I'm willing to accept to secure my money. I could pay a bank to secure my money, but they won't provide me with naked monsters to kill I could pay Blizzard my money, but I know they're not going to give it back at the end of the day.

I also know, that without regards to actually doing anything, I can put $1000 into their service, and not do a thing except chat, which is entertaining, and not be charged any sort of fees. I know that I can put that $1000 in, buy an Opalo, spend another 90 ped on ammo, and still have roughly $990 to pull out, minus fees. I know I can use that gun and ammo, and pay a 'fee' on how much I use it, with my ammo being returned back to me in the form of other items, while the decay on the gun will not be returned. These items that get given to me in leui of ammo are exactly what I what I'm talking about. So, why don't we charge a markup on ammo then? Because it could be bought at the TT. I know that anything and everything can be dropped (don't make me find the quote), it's a matter of knowing the particular variables in which to get the item you're looking for to drop.

So, I propose that the markup you're paying for is simply a matter of paying for someone's knowledge.

Now, knowledge is directly related to time, because you need time to gain knowledge.

But, I'm the type of person that believes that knowledge should be shared, so we all get farther, faster.

So, argueng to me that the reason I should pay markup on an item because you have the knowledge to get the item is just plain greedy (a.k.a. capitalism).

Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Teach them to fish, they eat for a lifetime.

So, someone will inevitable argue that you can hunt allo for days and not find a shopkeeper (I just use this, because I was just in a thread about the shopkeepers). So, finding a shopkeeper has nothing to do with knowledge. I would argue back, yes, it does. You must 1) know that allo drop shopkeepers, 2) know the other variables. Without knowing the variables, it's just plain luck. Much like how pencilin was found

oh, I could go on and on, but I do have some work to do, and I need food So, I'll be back in a bit to read your next response, and respond appropriately


~Red

ps. sorry for the typos, didn't have time to edit, and this KB is older than dirt, and my G15 won't be here until Monday (

 

[Nihilist]

this is all just too confusing.. will you just sell me an AL15 for TT?

- ; P

 

[QuintusMagnus]

I told ou keep the economy out of it

Ok, I completely understand that time is money, and by saving you time, I shoudl thereby charge you more money. Makes complete sense to me. And, on the opposite hand, your time is worth money, so hunting for adv. scanning sensors take your time, therefor, you should charge me as well.

But, I value my time, and you value your time. Does either of us have an arguement where either's time is worth more than the others?

But, you miss the 'mood' of my points, or possibly just what I believe to be true hasn't been communicated enough (I know, "Faith" isn't in an economists vocabulary). So, I will communicate it here, and then once again in that other thread (later today or tonight with the appropriate documentation).

Mindark provides us both with a service. The service is twofold; 1) entertainment and 2) security of our 'funds' in game.

I know that if I put $1000 into the game, I will be able to get that $1000 out of the game minus the service fee(s). These fees are fees I'm willing to accept to secure my money. I could pay a bank to secure my money, but they won't provide me with naked monsters to kill I could pay Blizzard my money, but I know they're not going to give it back at the end of the day.

I also know, that without regards to actually doing anything, I can put $1000 into their service, and not do a thing except chat, which is entertaining, and not be charged any sort of fees. I know that I can put that $1000 in, buy an Opalo, spend another 90 ped on ammo, and still have roughly $990 to pull out, minus fees. I know I can use that gun and ammo, and pay a 'fee' on how much I use it, with my ammo being returned back to me in the form of other items, while the decay on the gun will not be returned. These items that get given to me in leui of ammo are exactly what I what I'm talking about. So, why don't we charge a markup on ammo then? Because it could be bought at the TT. I know that anything and everything can be dropped (don't make me find the quote), it's a matter of knowing the particular variables in which to get the item you're looking for to drop.

So, I propose that the markup you're paying for is simply a matter of paying for someone's knowledge.

Now, knowledge is directly related to time, because you need time to gain knowledge.

But, I'm the type of person that believes that knowledge should be shared, so we all get farther, faster.

So, argueng to me that the reason I should pay markup on an item because you have the knowledge to get the item is just plain greedy (a.k.a. capitalism).

Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Teach them to fish, they eat for a lifetime.

So, someone will inevitable argue that you can hunt allo for days and not find a shopkeeper (I just use this, because I was just in a thread about the shopkeepers). So, finding a shopkeeper has nothing to do with knowledge. I would argue back, yes, it does. You must 1) know that allo drop shopkeepers, 2) know the other variables. Without knowing the variables, it's just plain luck. Much like how pencilin was found

oh, I could go on and on, but I do have some work to do, and I need food So, I'll be back in a bit to read your next response, and respond appropriately


~Red

ps. sorry for the typos, didn't have time to edit, and this KB is older than dirt, and my G15 won't be here until Monday (

Well of course we have different time values of money, but, within the game itself it's most likely a relatively accurate assumption that those time values are near equal.

Of course faith is in our vocabulary-just not in our economy =) I believe in God, he believes in us, and He in His wisdom gave us enough of a sense of logic and reasoning to reckon out how best to run many of our affairs, including the "invisible hand" of the market =)

Ah ha! A parallel. In the real world, we don't get ammo for free. We DO, however, get air.

Now, here's the situation with your knowledge setup (and why the greedy bird wins the Cold War...I mean early bird gets the worm). Knowledge SHOULD and IS shared, especially in free market economies. Indeed, people are constantly trying to gain more knowledge whenever possible on most of the planet. Ironically, some of the stuff I'm reading right now for class is talking about the returns to society and individuals for such education.

But there HAS to be a motivation to get the knowledge. After all, does not every parent on earth wish their kids to be more educated than them? And why? Because they assume it will lead to a better life.

Now, so we both agree that knowledge should be shared and that it is important that people attain more knowledge. You, by "teaching a man to fish" also imply that you agree with me that such education will allow a person a higher standard of "playing."

But, why is that?

Under your system you propose, people have no incentive to innovate. If I can get the best kit in the game from you for TT, I never feel like there's a point in knowing HOW to make that tool or weapon. After all, I just know that you'll make it. But why, after all, should you make it if YOU know a guy that knows how to make it?

With a markup(ed) market, there are incentives to attain higher knowledge. If something has a markup of 10,000%, but realistically could be produced with a markup for 1000%, people are going to eventually realize this 9000% discrepency and pursue the knowledge necessary to enter that market. They will make themselves level in an area that the economy needs (since, after all, if we all rely on just the one guy that somehow knew how to produce these things before your system was put in place, we're all both A) missing out on profit and B) having to wait for him to make it for all of us, flooding the market with demand (from low price) while strangling market supply (from zero incentive to enter the market).

So, for example, let's say you're a doctor under this system you propose. You heal people, and charge them all the price of the medicine only (presuming you have no building or whatever for simplicity's sake.) Now, people line up for miles at your door. *enter joke about the UK's practice of "ambulance stacking" here!* Finally, after making this thing for hours, people grumble about how they're not getting their good, how you're not on often enough to make it for them when they are, etc. Finally you say "ok, one of you level up and make it YOURSELF to help me out!"

Then they ask-why? I have nothing to gain from making these goods at-cost, and as a hunter, I don't want to spend all day staring at a manufacturing machine and pushing buttons. There's NO REASON for me to level up when there's someone else that will do it for me at cost.

Thus, either someone finally caves in and does it because the cost of THEIR time is too high (a capitalist reaction, since they're lowering the effective "markup" (the time/money lost waiting for the good) by entering the market, thus "undercutting" you by making less people wait in line for you to skill off making their goods) OR...a real cash economy sets in.

In the free market, that Doctor would charge out the nose if he was the only doctor, and with good reason-everybody needs his service and he can't see everybody every day, so therefore he should raise rates enough to deter the "casually sick" people and adequately compensate himself for being unique in the market. Meanwhile, BECAUSE of this-get ready for it!-people will grumble upon seeing the rates he charges and thus there will be a surge in the number of doctors in coming years, all having educated themselves NOT because they just felt like it was more interesting than shooting things (who can hate that?) but because the market will compensate them adequately for forgoing the chance to GO shoot things. However, with them all entering the market, they will increase supply relative to demand, thus making prices fall so that the "casually sick" CAN come get checked out, everybody still makes a profit, and eventually a steady number of doctors are produced each year roughly to meet increased or decreases in market demand (with lag, since after all it takes time to get THAT much education, even in the amazingly efficient free market).

So, what happens to all the other people? Well, they see that "hey, those guys made a killing, albeit less than the first doctor, by becoming doctors...but now that their prices dropped down to market equilibrium I don't think I'd make that same killing. But maybe I should go and become the second engineer in the market, or the second lawyer, or the second accountant...." Thus, parents push the education of their children, educated people earn more, and because they earn more when they become parents they push the education of their children who earn more who push the... point.

Which is exactly education is emphasized so heavily, even/especially in a free market.

 

[Konve]

I may have made 2-3 guns (yeah, right), I may have made 0 with your mats, and had to put another 99.5 or 181 ped even to make you one, but either way, neither of us is really losing, imho.

In theory you will, eventually, make money, though. As the "max" COS is quite a bit above 33%.

 

[Dion Red Strike]

In theory you will, eventually, make money, though. As the "max" COS is quite a bit above 33%.

So would the helping miner/hunter, in theory

Quintus,

I don't have the mental power to try and argue today, maybe tomorrow Tonight, I hunt

~Red

 

[thoreau]

Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Teach them to fish, they eat for a lifetime.

Here in the U.S. it's more like:

Give a person a fish and they're a drain on the economy. Teach a person to fish and you have a source of revenue via fishing license fees, sales taxes on the equipment, and taxes on transportation to and from the lake.

Gov't don't teach people to fish because its the moral thing to do. Gov'ts teach people to fish because it is good business.

 

[Hurrikane]

Yes, reading is good. Honestly I spend much of my earlier years reading junk with random bursts of english literature, but I've also read Plato's Republic, Machiavelli's The Prince, and Sun Tzu's Art of War, to name a few. I'm actually reading Greenspan's book atm (don't kill me, I still respect the guy as much as I don't like how he handled post 9/11, or for that matter, what Bernanke's done in the short period since...) and 1984 I finished obviously, so next up on the plate as I get time are das Kapital and and Adam Smith's "On the Wealth of Nations."-I figured it'd be good to see how much of a counterpoint they were to each other. However, due to time constraints, I likely wont finish that stretch until the end of the year, methinks.

LOL

Love the book name-dropping, reminded me of the face-off Matt Damon has in Goodwill Hunting 2-Hunting season (within Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back).

Hmm. Does that count as film name-dropping? I mean, I've also seen Spartacus and the original "The Fly" lol (Not seen Citizen Kane though, so lacking true film buff status)

Back to the topic; I remembered now what my main point is regarding trading. I'm here to play, to hunt and to skill. I expect to lose money on every throw of the dice. I don't find trading enjoyable, I can't be bothered to make the search for profit part of my game; that's the parts of RL that piss me off after all. I've never liked businessmen or salesmen, mostly folk lacking integrity or sincerity and purely after whatever they can get from you. I have no wish to emulate or encourage such activity in the virtual universe I visit to enjoy myself. That's why I TT a lot of things; I don't want greedy people getting rich on my efforts, and I can't be arsed to work the auctions and get good returns etc... that is work, not play. I'm making friends in EU who I reckon are good people, and they get my TT-ables if they need them. Empire-Builders need not apply

Hurrikane