Entropia = not gambling? (lotteriinspektionen)

[InDaHouse]

To say EU is gambling is like saying going to the local pub is gambling. Just because there is a Slot-Machine in the pub does not mean going to the pub is gambling, as you do not actually have to play the slots when in the pub- there are plenty of other activities you can do with "no element of chance, or chance of reward."

Your correct.... But the pub will pay tax on earnings from the slot machine, EU as an entire entity dont pay tax on any elements of the game even tho some are and have to be considered gambling.

 

[aridash]

1. I do not hope to win. Gambling is "the act of playing for stakes in the hope of winning." I hope to lose as little as I can to make the peds last as long as possible. To me this is "paying for a service, and trying to pay as as little as I can over as long a period as possible."

theres plenty of hair splitting and semantic pedantry in this thread, but takes the buscuit. by that arguement if you know or expect not to win when you bet on number 19 its become non-gambling? Anyway, the arguement is flawed since your "win" condition is to lose as little as possible, so there is still scope for the gambling definition to be met.

 

[Az Bloodz]

He does talk alot and prove nothing, lets compair his achievements with mine.....

He knows the system so do I but I still say its gambling. I know trox are better at certain times than others but I STILL go hunt and get no globals while others all round me get 3-4 each, if you can Legion explain how i'm still not gambling? Just because its the RIGHT TIME for trox dont mean i'll kill the RIGHT trox!

Many people think they know a lot or "play right" but that doesn't mean they actually are. Maybe you don't know as much as you think about EU and how it works? No one [and especially Legion] does know how the loot distribution is actually working [ok, perhaps some people have figured out but they for sure haven't put this information on EntropiaForum.com] so it's hard to say you are doing the 'right thing' but 'being unlucky'.

 

[InDaHouse]

Many people think they know a lot or "play right" but that doesn't mean they actually are. Maybe you don't know as much as you think about EU and how it works? No one [and especially Legion] does know how the loot distribution is actually working [ok, perhaps some people have figured out but they for sure haven't put this information on EntropiaForum.com] so it's hard to say you are doing the 'right thing' but 'being unlucky'.

Maybe so but I know people that know how to play poker right and still lose but other times they rake it in.

EU (most of anyway)

Pay to do --- chance of return (no matter how big or small) --- chance of nothing --- gambling

Poker

Pay to do --- chance of return (no matter how big or small) --- chance of nothing --- gambling

We can gather knowledge and skills on how to make our returns better or limit our losses but as long as you spend 1 pec with the chance of getting 1 pec back its gambling!

Can anyone actualy say if I kill this Atrox its gonna give me loot and be 110% sure it will?

 

[Zib Black Onyx]

look.... clearly Entropia is gambling.

The point is - what is there to gain from all of this - one of two things will happen:

1. Swedish gaming commission will actually take the time to really look at how entropia works and determine it's gambling forcing MA to move things offshore making it impossible for lots of people to deposit via credit card (can still depo by bank deposit so thats good)

2. Same thing will happen and it will force MA out of business, and potential jail time for MA principles.

So why don't we just let this topic die?

I think EF should just abn/lock/remove all gambling related discussions.

 

[DoubleWolf]

Ok here's a good point to through into the boiling pot i'm sure many have had this same reply from support......


Anyone ever sent a support to complain about how bad thier losses are and how bad the loot is? I have and I know a few others that have too i've seent he quotes on this forum!

Reply:

Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to write to us unforunately there is nothing we can do about how loot is distributed among participants, but we are sure your luck will change in the future.
Regards,
Support

Look at the bold underlined statement quoted from the support ticket direct from Support dept AKA MA office!!

If it costs and involve's luck to gain loot what does that mean?

That's really at the heart at what I was trying to get at. That statement could be taken a few different ways.

Does this mean that there IS a system in place where eventually spent peds will be returned to you? It could imply that, since they seem so "sure" that your luck will turn around.

You could also read that as just an encouraging statement to keep you playing the game, with no other meaning behind it at all.

I'm inclined to think that it does imply a system like that since I believe something along those lines does exist. I've definitely noticed up and down swings myself and in the end, I seem to stay right about breaking even or just under when looking at TT value...

 

[Zib Black Onyx]

That's really at the heart at what I was trying to get at. That statement could be taken a few different ways.

Does this mean that there IS a system in place where eventually spent peds will be returned to you? It could imply that, since they seem so "sure" that your luck will turn around.

You could also read that as just an encouraging statement to keep you playing the game, with no other meaning behind it at all.

I'm inclined to think that it does imply a system like that since I believe something along those lines does exist. I've definitely noticed up and down swings myself and in the end, I seem to stay right about breaking even or just under when looking at TT value...

There is NO system in place designed to "give you back your losses" eventually.

Anyone who has played this game long enough knows that.

What is there to ensure that you don't go broke before you "break even"?

That is the same as saying when you play a slot machine the system is designed to eventually give you back your losses because you WILL hit a jackpot if you play long enough.

How long is long?

 

[Az Bloodz]

Well not everyone sees Poker as gambling and the point is in EU there is a return no matter how bad you're playing: it is impossible to get absolutely nothing considering you are shooting mobs/craft something/drop probes/bombs.

I don't know the conclusion of the Lotteriinspektionen so I cannot talk for them but it is not the first time Entropia Universe got investigated. They may see it as a kind of fee to play, they may see the skill/research needed they might even see loot as an "extra" such as the Baskettball thingy Coop was talking about.

We don't know how the loot-system is working so we cannot say for sure anyways [even though I doubt the Lotteriinspektionen knows]. I actually don't get the reason why people are wanting EU being gambling soooo much I mean who cares? I enjoy playing Entropia Universe and I think everyone playing is enjoying the game as well if not they should jsut quit.
I don't need an excuse for my losses, I don't hate MA nor EU and I seriously do not care if it is gambling or not unless a law could ruin this game for me.

 

[DoubleWolf]

There is NO system in place designed to "give you back your losses" eventually.

Anyone who has played this game long enough knows that.

What is there to ensure that you don't go broke before you "break even"?

That is the same as saying when you play a slot machine the system is designed to eventually give you back your losses because you WILL hit a jackpot if you play long enough.

How long is long?

Well keep in mind that I believe when you "get back your losses" MA will have taken out their hourly fee for play or however they have determined it. So if you continue to lose over and over for a long time and then finally get a big loot, you're going to look at it and say, "well that was nice, but it didn't even get me close to breaking even". In MA's eyes you broke even minus their fee that they charged so if you went a long time with no big loots, that fee is going to look much bigger.

Of course this is all speculation, but it makes sense to me and seems to fit well with what actually happens in the game, not only from my own experience but from what I've read from others here as well.

 

[Legion]

Legion, you talk alot and say a great many things, but you prove nothing.

Shut up and prove yourself. You're wasting everyones time with your bullshit.

BTW I can get an ATH anytime I want, but i'm too busy right now. (See I can say anything and dont have prove it like you do)

Ok you can prove it yourself sort of. Take a look at the hofs, mainly ubers for 2-3 weeks and if you see a pattern (which there is) good, my point proven, if you dont see it then ur kinda dumb. ;P

He does talk alot and prove nothing, lets compair his achievements with mine.....

He knows the system so do I but I still say its gambling. I know trox are better at certain times than others but I STILL go hunt and get no globals while others all round me get 3-4 each, if you can Legion explain how i'm still not gambling? Just because its the RIGHT TIME for trox dont mean i'll kill the RIGHT trox!

Maybe true i talk a lot.. i dunno. But what i do know is that my mining system does work. To 100%. But nobody seems willing to really test it properly and if they have tested it and it seems to been working they dont tell, and if it doesnt work they just say it doesnt work but doesnt really say how they tested it and those who did tested it wrong.

Sure the timer is not totally exact but it does give you a rough estimate on where to be at what time. But as i also have said countless times, this does not guarantee anything.

And how ur not gambling, well you just isnt cause the system is built that way. And why you dont global, your just not hitting the right mobs. I do however have a way to increase my ods slightly to get a global cause i know where they most often are hiding. It doesnt always work, but does work quite often.

 

[aridash]

Well not everyone sees Poker as gambling and the point is in EU there is a return no matter how bad you're playing: it is impossible to get absolutely nothing considering you are shooting mobs/craft something/drop probes/bombs.

anyone who doesnt see that poker is gambling either doesnt know what the game is or doesnt understand the definition of gambling. yes, it may have skill and strategy but the underlying game is gambling.

In EU it is entirely possible to get nothing, in each loot event you can get 0 return. ok, maybe over an evening you might receive some of your total back and if you start with 100 you end with 75, but contrast to say roulette where if you bet on black or 1st row every spin, you will win some, lose some and might end an evening with some of your initial pot.

i dont understand why people keep comparing to other forms of gambling in order to show how it isnt like that as there are so many other exmaples where it is. i personally dont believe it is gambling, largely because the Swedish authority has decided it doesnt meet their criteria (which must be reasonably normal) but also because i hope there is a deeper complexity. But im buggered if i could tell you why it isnt gambling and i have yet to see a single proven reason why.

 

[Zib Black Onyx]

anyone who doesnt see that poker is gambling either doesnt know what the game is or doesnt understand the definition of gambling. yes, it may have skill and strategy but the underlying game is gambling.

In EU it is entirely possible to get nothing, in each loot event you can get 0 return. ok, maybe over an evening you might receive some of your total back and if you start with 100 you end with 75, but contrast to say roulette where if you bet on black or 1st row every spin, you will win some, lose some and might end an evening with some of your initial pot.

i dont understand why people keep comparing to other forms of gambling in order to show how it isnt like that as there are so many other exmaples where it is. i personally dont believe it is gambling, largely because the Swedish authority has decided it doesnt meet their criteria (which must be reasonably normal) but also because i hope there is a deeper complexity. But im buggered if i could tell you why it isnt gambling and i have yet to see a single proven reason why.

Clearly from the swedish gaming commission's latest reply - they really don't have a clue how entropia works - it is very complex.

To say it isn't gambling because you always get a return is absurd.
If I play a slot machine and put in 100 quarters and pull 100 spins - I WILL get a return too. I will not get zero back.

I might get back 50 quarters. Chances are if I keep "cycling" these quarters long enough I will end up with zero. But wait if I keep on depositing fresh quarters eventually I will hit a jackpot... eventually.

Well keep in mind that I believe when you "get back your losses" MA will have taken out their hourly fee for play or however they have determined it. So if you continue to lose over and over for a long time and then finally get a big loot, you're going to look at it and say, "well that was nice, but it didn't even get me close to breaking even". In MA's eyes you broke even minus their fee that they charged so if you went a long time with no big loots, that fee is going to look much bigger.

Of course this is all speculation, but it makes sense to me and seems to fit well with what actually happens in the game, not only from my own experience but from what I've read from others here as well.

If I recall, you have not cycled tha much peds in EU personally from your previous posts so I don't think you are even in a position to comment aboutlong term loot/balance.

I think it's gambling. I like gambling

I'm glad the gaming commission thinks it's not gambling too

They must have an Omegaton Ferrari

 

[Adamas]

Maybe true i talk a lot.. i dunno. But what i do know is that my mining system does work. To 100%. But nobody seems willing to really test it properly and if they have tested it and it seems to been working they dont tell, and if it doesnt work they just say it doesnt work but doesnt really say how they tested it and those who did tested it wrong.

Why dont you just prove it works?

It doesnt always work, but does work quite often.

So, thats like counting cards in Blackjack. Thats Gambling.


Back on Topic:
I think 90% of people would say that EU is gambling. I'm fine with that But my problem is that like 2 years ago when I started playing everyone was playing the Quarter Slots (Ped lasted alot longer, the average hof was lower and there were more globals).

Now it seems everyone is playing the 2 dollar Slots(Ped flies out of your pocket, There are constantly 20k+ HoFs and Uber ATHs)

The difference I find is that 2 years fun was had by all. Of course you didn't always profit back then but your ped lasted longer and it seemed Fair. Now, Fun is had by some and the rest of us just grow tired of losing.

If on average their are 3x 20K Atrox Hofs a week, that is 60k ped. 3 people are very happy. But if they gave out 60x 1K hofs then 60 people would be happy.

Mindarc is shoothing themselves in the foot with their loot distribution. We knows it gambling and we're fine with it as long as everyone has fun, not a selected few and we have to pay for it.

 

[Zib Black Onyx]

Why dont you just prove it works?



So, thats like counting cards in Blackjack. Thats Gambling.


Back on Topic:
I think 90% of people would say that EU is gambling. I'm fine with that But my problem is that like 2 years ago when I started playing everyone was playing the Quarter Slots (Ped lasted alot longer, the average hof was lower and there were more globals).

Now it seems everyone is playing the 2 dollar Slots(Ped flies out of your pocket, There are constantly 20k+ HoFs and Uber ATHs)

The difference I find is that 2 years fun was had by all. Of course you didn't always profit back then but your ped lasted longer and it seemed Fair. Now, Fun is had by some and the rest of us just grow tired of losing.

If on average their are 3x 20K Atrox Hofs a week, that is 60k ped. 3 people are very happy. But if they gave out 60x 1K hofs then 60 people would be happy.

Mindarc is shoothing themselves in the foot with their loot distribution. We knows it gambling and we're fine with it as long as everyone has fun, not a selected few and we have to pay for it.

+rep good analogy.

One of the things that has changed was that years ago, it was only the ubers who COULD play the $2 slots.

There were no mining amps, no full condition crafting, and access to high dmg per sec guns was limited (pun intended)

Now a noob on day one can buy an OA-101 bp and start crafting on full condition.

 

[DoubleWolf]

If I recall, you have not cycled tha much peds in EU personally from your previous posts so I don't think you are even in a position to comment aboutlong term loot/balance.

I love the arrogance of people on this forum that think because I haven't spent a lot of money (in fact, I don't think I've ever mentioned how much I've spent here), there's no possible way I could gather how things work. Like any level of intelligence or education you bring with you to the table means nothing until you've spent hundreds of thousands of Peds...

I've been around the game for over a year now, played nearly every single day. Been on the forums reading posts from the community since BEFORE I started nearly every single day. I've tracked everything that I have done in EU since day one. I know where my peds are going and I can watch as they come back. And from what I can tell you, I definitely see a trend where you get TT value spent back in some form, and it usually comes in just under what I have spent. That's just my own observations. I've read many threads on here that tend to agree with that. The ones that don't seem to be whining threads from people that apparently don't do a good job tracking what they do. I have yet to see a well laid out thread that tracks someone's progress that shows that all they do is dump thousands of peds into the game and nothing comes back. If that thread exists, please point me in that direction, or please make your own...

 

[Zib Black Onyx]

because I haven't spent a lot of money (in fact, I don't think I've ever mentioned how much I've spent here), there's no possible way I could gather how things work. I've been around the game for over a year now.

Exactly.

 

[Legion]

Why dont you just prove it works?



So, thats like counting cards in Blackjack. Thats Gambling.

Trust me i've tried, i have given the theory to several ppl but they either end up quiet or do it wrong and dont ask if there is something they dont understand.

And no i wouldnt see it as counting cards, i just know what mobs is having a higher chance for a mini or global if the timer is right.

I love the arrogance of people on this forum that think because I haven't spent a lot of money (in fact, I don't think I've ever mentioned how much I've spent here), there's no possible way I could gather how things work. Like any level of intelligence or education you bring with you to the table means nothing until you've spent hundreds of thousands of Peds...

Coulndt agree more, the arrogance and maturity of ppl in this forum is kinda low. Or well from a few people, it's actually even worse than some other mmo forums i been visiting. And they are especially picking on those who have theories. But i learnt to just dont care about them mostly any longer.

 

[DoubleWolf]

Exactly.

Wow, really guy?

Thanks for proving my point and fully addressing my post to the best of your abilities. I appreciate the input...

 

[Witte]

I love the arrogance of people on this forum that think because I haven't spent a lot of money (in fact, I don't think I've ever mentioned how much I've spent here), there's no possible way I could gather how things work. Like any level of intelligence or education you bring with you to the table means nothing until you've spent hundreds of thousands of Peds...

I've been around the game for over a year now, played nearly every single day. Been on the forums reading posts from the community since BEFORE I started nearly every single day. I've tracked everything that I have done in EU since day one. I know where my peds are going and I can watch as they come back. And from what I can tell you, I definitely see a trend where you get TT value spent back in some form, and it usually comes in just under what I have spent. That's just my own observations. I've read many threads on here that tend to agree with that. The ones that don't seem to be whining threads from people that apparently don't do a good job tracking what they do. I have yet to see a well laid out thread that tracks someone's progress that shows that all they do is dump thousands of peds into the game and nothing comes back. If that thread exists, please point me in that direction, or please make your own...

Obviously, the people complaining all the time are too stupid for this. Thats why they are complaining in the first place.

 

[Menace]

Our Avatar's skills have a direct reflection on the average returns over time. That is why Entropia is NOT considered gambling as per Swedish Law. What you have to remember, is in Sweden, because only the gov't can offer gambling.... their rules our quite different from ours over here in the western world. Entropia is considered gambling in the U.S. and Canada by our laws... but our laws are not the ones in question.

With Entropia, if you play within your means, AND have a brain, it is very easy to break even. (Though I'm not saying that style of game play is fun whatsoever). If you chose to throw money away on the "service" (Yup... the term used by MA for Entropia Universe), then that option is there as well.. HOWEVER..... what you're paying for in theory, is a service to skill your avatar so that you have more means of game play that gives you a consistant "break even" PED flow/exchange.

 

[Domina]

Obviously, the people complaining all the time are too stupid for this. Thats why they are complaining in the first place.

Of course, the concept that loot tables may vary from player to player has always been laughable to you.

You're always quick to suggest if someone always loses, they're doing something wrong and aren't as smart as you are, Witte. Many people that whine about losing no matter what probably aren't using their brains - but not all of them.

The fact is, a lot of players can hunt/mine/craft things that are within thier level, as eco as possible, using every tip suggested on EF, and still get shit returns.

When you see a non-depositer in two years save up enough for an Imp 2870 through hunting loots - mostly Troxes and Ambu - alone, doesn't that make you wonder? Maybe he's playing "the right way", right? This particular players idea of tagging a mob is running into a pack of Troxes and blasting away - not the portrait of "eco hunting"...

Using the example above, isn't it *possible* that two avatars can do the same thing, with the same gear and skill, day in and day out, and have distinctly different outcomes - one positive and one negative - with the deciding factor being the loot table for the char vs. one guy being dumb and the other being smart?

 

[NightwolfAA2k5]

I'm getting a strange feeling...

Deja Vu...

I think I've posted in this thread before

 

[Adamas]

Trust me i've tried, i have given the theory to several ppl but they either end up quiet or do it wrong and dont ask if there is something they dont understand.

And no i wouldnt see it as counting cards, i just know what mobs is having a higher chance for a mini or global if the timer is right.

Prove it yourself.
I am here by ignoring you until you [removed] what you're CONSTANTLY saying.

Get out of the forums 24/7 and Prove you know what you're talking about!

EDIT: I think this is the best post in this whole thread.

 

[JohnCapital]

Wasn't this thread about the legal authorities in Sweden giving their blessing that Entropia is not gambling, according to their laws?

How the hell did we get onto Legions' loot theories?

Christ, just because they brought up the subject, seems some folks can't get past what someone's "know for."

 

[wizzszz]

Prove it yourself.
I am here by ignoring you until you [removed] what you're CONSTANTLY saying.

Get out of the forums 24/7 and Prove you know what you're talking about!

I second that!

EDIT: I think this is the best post in this whole thread.

And that.

Maybe the first part without the "f" word


I didn't really want to comment on your innane drivel again, Legion, but i have a really simple question:

It is possible to disprove you?

Because i can
a) confirm your results
or
b) i am doing it wrong

Which already covers everything, there's no room for option
c) your theory sucks


Sounds a bit like brainwashing...

 

[Norbert]

I believe in Santa!

(posted from the dyslexic devil worshipping cult via sacrificial rite)

 

[wizzszz]

(posted from the dyslexic devil worshipping cult via sacrificial rite)

+rep

 

[Adamas]

Wasn't this thread about the legal authorities in Sweden giving their blessing that Entropia is not gambling, according to their laws?

How the hell did we get onto Legions' loot theories?

Christ, just because they brought up the subject, seems some folks can't get past what someone's "know for."

It got onto this topic b/c Legion keeps saying "its not gambling becase I've figured everything out" I (and I beleive Others) just want him to STFU.

 

[Witte]

Of course, the concept that loot tables may vary from player to player has always been laughable to you.

You're always quick to suggest if someone always loses, they're doing something wrong and aren't as smart as you are, Witte. Many people that whine about losing no matter what probably aren't using their brains - but not all of them.

The fact is, a lot of players can hunt/mine/craft things that are within thier level, as eco as possible, using every tip suggested on EF, and still get shit returns.

When you see a non-depositer in two years save up enough for an Imp 2870 through hunting loots - mostly Troxes and Ambu - alone, doesn't that make you wonder? Maybe he's playing "the right way", right? This particular players idea of tagging a mob is running into a pack of Troxes and blasting away - not the portrait of "eco hunting"...

Using the example above, isn't it *possible* that two avatars can do the same thing, with the same gear and skill, day in and day out, and have distinctly different outcomes - one positive and one negative - with the deciding factor being the loot table for the char vs. one guy being dumb and the other being smart?

I just think that people that are complaining and moaning constantly but still continue to play are not the brightest lights. Being successful in EU is not by a long shot a measure of how intelligent you are. It all depends on your goals in the first place.

 

[Coop_]

Wasn't this thread about the legal authorities in Sweden giving their blessing that Entropia is not gambling, according to their laws?

How the hell did we get onto Legions' loot theories?

Christ, just because they brought up the subject, seems some folks can't get past what someone's "know for."

Legion is the one that makes the connection, and is the reason for starting the thread in the first place--using the reasoning: Sweden says E.U. isn't gambling, ergo loot cannot be random, ergo it must be based on the skill of following the "clues" which Legion has figured out.