Info: Eco? Food for thought

[JohnCapital]

Something I want you to consider when trying to figure this game out:

Old Days

• Dmg/Pec in the 2.8 range was typical
• Maxed weapons were rare
• Most folks were 2-5 HA and Crit, not 10/10
• 20-30 Dmg/Sec was considered good for most hunters
• Shots not aimed at a mob still used ammo/decay
• Travel via tp chips (vehicles didn't exist) cost ~14-16 pec/km
• 50k total skills? Good skilling
• Most loot was hides/wools/iron/gazz/etc. requiring refinement before selling
• Etc.

These days

• Dmg/Pec in the 2.95 range was typical
• Maxed weapons are the norm
• Most folks are 10/10 HA and Crit
• 20-30 Dmg/Sec is way too low for most hunters
• Shots not aimed at a mob use no ammo/decay
• Travel via vehicles cost ~4-6 pec/km
• 200k total skills? N00b compared to many players now
• Most loot requires no refinement before selling
• Etc.

In short: WAY more eco hunting is being done these days, by everyone. According to the better eco = better loot strategy, the entire hunter player base should be getting WAY more loot for their efforts. I mean WAY more, compared to the "old days".

So when you compare years old hunting logs to logs these days, why are total returns still in the same range?

I'm not saying better eco doesn't matter. I'm saying today's overal eco vs old days eco should = WAY more loot overall, but it doesn't. Why?

 

[Hatten]

If more eco stuff is being introduced that raises the bar. If you want average returns you will have to have average gear. The average gear has gotten more eco therefore you are required to be more eco to survive.

I don't find that suprising though.

 

[Thorias]

If more eco stuff is being introduced that raises the bar. If you want average returns you will have to have average gear. The average gear has gotten more eco therefore you are required to be more eco to survive.

I don't find that suprising though.

This ..

Their is no good or bad eco for MA ... just people killing more or less mobs depending their eco for the same amount of peds.

 

[San]

I'm saying today's overal eco vs old days eco should = WAY more loot overall, but it doesn't. Why?

Because entropy stays the same. If everybody keeps up with the development as described, then they keep getting the same proportion out of all that's available. Your absolute dpp doesn't matter, but how you do in relation to everybody else.

 

[sachi.mk2]

If more eco stuff is being introduced that raises the bar. If you want average returns you will have to have average gear. The average gear has gotten more eco therefore you are required to be more eco to survive.

I don't find that suprising though.

That's why I am fairly uninspired by the buff rings.

 

[RickEngland]

You get more drawn out loot I guess. I often look at EU like the jokes they say about Mexican food.."it's all the same just wrapped up differently"....lol. In other words I believe MA still take the same cut, it's just how we react that had to change.

I'm in that middle age where I just want to know where the on and off button is, not because I can't learn, I just can't be bothered to work it all out anymore. However I take it on good faith what I read here, and do attempt to adapt.

I bought one of those Adjusted Bolga whips, on the back of "slithers" comments somewhere that is was super eco even without an amp. I've been running it a while now, and to be fair it hasn't been that bad.

There were a few dodgy runs (like 70 ped down per 210 ped whip), but I put that down to MA playing under the hood, or chasing depos, or paying someone's withdrawal.....basically messing with the server payout dials and throwing it all out of sync. If I get it back or not is debatable, I'm not going to cross my fingers anyway.

But all that said, and crazy theories aside, I'll stick with it and see if behaves over a few months. MA are pretty famous for moving the goal posts, so I hold nothing as factual or guaranteed anymore.

I don't know;.... it's entertaining, as long as it remains entertaining.

Rick

 

[mastermesh]

HA is the sound of laughter....

 

[the-unknown]

MA increased the baseline for what average eco was.

How did they do that? By creating buff items or new gear to improve the eco.

Previously you were eco by just having an imk2 (and some decent skills).

Now there are other gear combinations + buffs which are just as eco, with lesser skills.

So everyone has to spend more just to "keep up" their relative level of the eco'ness compared to the baseline.

Smart actually.

 

[JohnCapital]

A lot of folks talking about how new weapons/rings/etc. are the difference. Consider this:

Had MA never put in (L), SIB, rings, etc. and we all use unmax (or maxed) old-school equipment: We all, as a group, would be much more efficient then we were 8 years ago just on skills alone, BUT we would still be getting the same avg. loot returns.

 

[RickEngland]

A lot of folks talking about how new weapons/rings/etc. are the difference. Consider this:

Had MA never put in (L), SIB, rings, etc. and we all use unmax (or maxed) old-school equipment: We all, as a group, would be much more efficient then we were 8 years ago just on skills alone, BUT we would still be getting the same avg. loot returns.

That implies skills don't matter as long as your 10/10 on the weapon, which has been stated before.

I think reality is John, that MA's intention was to completely level the playing field on equipment. Even if we aren't completely there yet, we're a long way to reaching that goal.

Now consider these new fruit weapons that actually state in the info they're efficient and eco. It's almost as if MA are saying "look players.....how much do you want us to point you in the right direction".

Sure they're only L right now, but lets call that a "positioning" tactic, an opportunity for the community to become "accustomed" and accept as the norm these the new weapons, before the inevitable unlimited drops.

Obviously that has huge impacts for values of existing equipment, I say what I see I don't make the rules. I'm sure valuations is a factor in MA's future plan too.

But the key point with those new weapons, is your getting more "time" for you money. You might still pay the same, but it takes longer to burn it. Now if MA issue more powerful weapons which use less ammo (I'm sure they will). Then clearly they want us to have more time with our peds. Then hope this will increase customers, or existing customers play longer.....MA still get paid.

I don't trust any amps to be honest, not anymore. I refuse to use them, how eco is the actual amp compared to the "new" low ammo usage weapon. What under the hood measure "really" takes effect.

Anyhow I believe that once this phase is complete, and the playing field is level then everything else is smoke and mirrors, and MA can gradually increase returns.

I do not for one second believe Ares rings improve loot, I do not accept it. It allows you to turnover more peds, that maybe gives the illusion of more loot, but that's all you see. Now if MA take a percentage of turnover like everyone says they do "5%" whatever it is, then that 5% takes away any saving you thought you got from the extra crits and focus blow (due to increased turnover).

I'm sure people won't agree with me, I'm sorry I don't want to get into an argument. But I'm very good commercial manager in real life and smoke and mirrors is my game. Sell perception, manage your clients expectations to your advantage. If they believe they have won, you have won...win-win.

Good night

Rick

 

[Aio]

A lot of folks talking about how new weapons/rings/etc. are the difference. Consider this:

Had MA never put in (L), SIB, rings, etc. and we all use unmax (or maxed) old-school equipment: We all, as a group, would be much more efficient then we were 8 years ago just on skills alone, BUT we would still be getting the same avg. loot returns.

The people who played 8, 10, 12, 14 years ago would indeed be much more efficient - and would get the same average loot if all those same players were "teleported" from 2008 to 2016. But some of those players have left, and in their place there are new players - and any new players would be absolutely and utterly fucked. Competing with 10/10 HA, 2.9dpp players, when they themselves can reach 1-3 HA, 2.1 dpp.

(L) balances economy new player to old - in the past it was far easier to profit with an imk2 (peak eco) because the trough eco was so much lower in comparison.

Entropia must be taken as a multiplayer game, which is why, all but the most extremely long-term (or.. longtime if you will) logs are utterly useless, as they fail to accurately portray the "noise" of other people.

It's true that eco means nothing on a single player "version". But it means a whole lot when sitting next to someone with vastly different eco.

 

[Aio]

P.S. I do believe the fundamental reason all changes to the "average economy" in Entropia has been done to reign in the top end, to boost the lower end into more stable returns. The key is stability - with a very low eco, it's still possible to do well; but your chances are lower and your bankroll will have to be out of this world.

 

[Shady]

would be fun to know the result of ppl whit heartshock armor that make what 4dpp?

 

[sidxx]

I'm not saying better eco doesn't matter. I'm saying today's overal eco vs old days eco should = WAY more loot overall, but it doesn't. Why?

welcome to one of my realizations that ive been enlightened to about 5 years ago

 

[Aio]

would be fun to know the result of ppl whit heartshock armor that make what 4dpp?

They make tt profit, because their eco (especially when combined with imk2 and top rings) is significantly higher than the average.

Here is a key mistake with MA, buff stacking - the same normalisers for normal players can be used to massive advantage in combination.

 

[Meg]

In short: WAY more eco hunting is being done these days

Every mob having upgraded hit points, regening faster, hitting harder, moving faster, dodging more and you miss more and the loot is more often without markup or non-existant

and the mobs that were still too eco friendly under the new regime were simply removed.

 

[Aio]

Every mob having upgraded hit points, regening faster, hitting harder, moving faster, dodging more and you miss more and the loot is more often without markup or non-existant

and the mobs that were still too eco friendly under the new regime were simply removed.

Armax, warrior, drone, trooper, goki, atrax, just off the top of my head haven't been altered.

A good friend spent a huge time on armax young - provider at Argus, back in the day, they had zero markup and the same hp as now. But hunting them now with an imk2 would be nowhere near as profitable

 

[Spawn]

Armax, warrior, drone, trooper, goki, atrax, just off the top of my head haven't been altered.

A good friend spent a huge time on armax young - provider at Argus, back in the day, they had zero markup and the same hp as now. But hunting them now with an imk2 would be nowhere near as profitable

Atrax /armax / longu can still be very profitable because they do not have their global treshold lowered. Atrax loot is predictable because minis and globals always come with "bones". Just harvest the bones...
But yeah, there would be a difference with imk2, because the rest of us got soo much more eco,.

 

[Guarana]

Well.

MA said they would make the game "cheaper" to play. But they will not do without getting their money back elsewhere.

So we have more items introduced and the eco bar lifted.

In the end you are aprox stuck in the same return % as before. With just a slight advantage with the new highest eco items you can buy.

But ofc, as long as you play more, that advantage % will yeld more the more hours you put in. Which again promotes people to invest in one avatar, rather creating one each.

More money to invest, more hours to play.

 

[Kerham]

Until I see with my own eyes a log of decent size for the purpose, (100k spent), in which someone stacking good eco gun and buffs gets sensibly over 105%, (with outliers ATH-like excluded, based on the hp of the mob), I personally believe that the idea of eco giving more loot in tt terms is pure bullshit.

Eco helps dramatically in harvesting skills and MU, that is obvious. Therefore I would gladly embrace the idea that the biggest push from eco is the cascading effect of shrapnel conversion and a sensible (dramatic in some cases) decrease of defensive decay impact.

I ain't saying you should go out with 2.4 out there and be a happy pig. But don't lose sleep if you're "just" 2.9.

If you don't do that already, start an xls in which track offensive expenses (weapon decay, ammo, amp, implant if is mf etc) vs. tt loot. I am navigating between 2.87 and 2.92 with the magnanimous bonus of Ares (L) and Athenic (L). I am around 100% tt return, +- the 4th decimal. Lvl 47 laser pistoleer, lvl20 evader, 20 paramedic, rascal+2A, refurbished fap from cyrene. Using, usually, weps maxed at lvl 30 or so. Nothing special, all this is achievable in 6 months or faster nowadays.

Of course buffs and uber items help. But this comparison over the board is misleading and confusing. Explore your own logs, explore the MU of the mob you hunt, realize where the game is pushing you and how to best take advantage of your own personal skill lvl, hp, setup and so on. Everything else is marketing.

Rather control your auction fees and bankroll.

P.S.: biggest influencer of our tt return is MindArk's decision to keep a more calm loot return with less uberhofs. That trend is reversing, I see they are pushing back toward daily 10ks from low mobs. THAT will influence your tt return dramatically, if you don't get lucky.

 

[Me Really Never]

Until I see with my own eyes a log of decent size for the purpose, (100k spent), in which someone stacking good eco gun and buffs gets sensibly over 105%, (with outliers ATH-like excluded, based on the hp of the mob), I personally believe that the idea of eco giving more loot in tt terms is pure bullshit.

Eco helps dramatically in harvesting skills and MU, that is obvious. Therefore I would gladly embrace the idea that the biggest push from eco is the cascading effect of shrapnel conversion and a sensible (dramatic in some cases) decrease of defensive decay impact.

I ain't saying you should go out with 2.4 out there and be a happy pig. But don't lose sleep if you're "just" 2.9.

If you don't do that already, start an xls in which track offensive expenses (weapon decay, ammo, amp, implant if is mf etc) vs. tt loot. I am navigating between 2.87 and 2.92 with the magnanimous bonus of Ares (L) and Athenic (L). I am around 100% tt return, +- the 4th decimal. Lvl 47 laser pistoleer, lvl20 evader, 20 paramedic, rascal+2A, refurbished fap from cyrene. Using, usually, weps maxed at lvl 30 or so. Nothing special, all this is achievable in 6 months or faster nowadays.

Of course buffs and uber items help. But this comparison over the board is misleading and confusing. Explore your own logs, explore the MU of the mob you hunt, realize where the game is pushing you and how to best take advantage of your own personal skill lvl, hp, setup and so on. Everything else is marketing.

Rather control your auction fees and bankroll.

P.S.: biggest influencer of our tt return is MindArk's decision to keep a more calm loot return with less uberhofs. That trend is reversing, I see they are pushing back toward daily 10ks from low mobs. THAT will influence your tt return dramatically, if you don't get lucky.

ive done tests in goldrush this year with a piron gun + beats with roughly 2.5 dpp and various limited guns with imp a105 with roughly 2.95 dpp. ive spend aroudn 15k peds with both (including decay) and the results werent too different. the piron gave me 90,xx% return and the eco mode gave me 92,xx% return. both shit returns though. i had a lot more globals with the piron and the overall loot when getting a multiplier seemed to be nearly exactly double the multiplier loot in eco mode (eco mode = lots of 15 pedder and with piron nearly none of those but lots of 30 pedder)

 

[Theo Alpheios]

ive done tests in goldrush this year with a piron gun + beats with roughly 2.5 dpp and various limited guns with imp a105 with roughly 2.95 dpp. ive spend aroudn 15k peds with both (including decay) and the results werent too different. the piron gave me 90,xx% return and the eco mode gave me 92,xx% return. both shit returns though. i had a lot more globals with the piron and the overall loot when getting a multiplier seemed to be nearly exactly double the multiplier loot in eco mode (eco mode = lots of 15 pedder and with piron nearly none of those but lots of 30 pedder)

That is how I would program a game, have everything calculated under the hood. Lower eco = more ped spent. With about the same average return = more chance on, higher globals.

 

[Me Really Never]

That is how I would program a game, have everything calculated under the hood. Lower eco = more ped spent. With about the same average return = more chance on, higher globals.

its still very risky though as u are more in need of multipliers than when using eco gear. if u get them it is no problem but ive had more than 1k kills without any multiplier... and that on a 2.5 dpp gun hurts a lot more than on a 3dpp gun

 

[Falagor]

I am afraid to post my return log in public. Just to say: in 1 month and 3 days since i came back from long break i made over 16k ped profit...

And 2 days ago i bought Summer Ring 2016 so it will only improve...

Falagor

 

[Theo Alpheios]

That is how I would program a game, have everything calculated under the hood. Lower eco = more ped spent. With about the same average return = more chance on, higher globals.

its still very risky though as u are more in need of multipliers than when using eco gear. if u get them it is no problem but ive had more than 1k kills without any multiplier... and that on a 2.5 dpp gun hurts a lot more than on a 3dpp gun

to me it is like hunting compared to crafting - slider to the left or right

 

[Mega]

"Eco.... Smecho..." JC


If its 10/10 Hit youre good to go IMO, you can improve this with a Dmg amplifer (buy the best your budget can afford)

Me? I went back to Justifier MK2, but that's because I get 8.7/10.0 on it, so that'll do for me. Your results may be considerably lower.

One day I may get the Imp LR32 back I used to own, but I cant afford it at the moment (yes I know it's for sale maybe I'll crowd fund it heh.)

I didnt play Entropia to work out 'Eco' to 3 decimal places and I never have!

 

[Zanathos]

To me, I've always thought there had to be some kind of ingame balancer.

Otherwise what's the point of using most of the blp weapons over laser?

 

[Aio]

FYI, a difference of 2.0 dpp to 3.0 dpp is .66, on a 95% returns (for 3.0 dpp) the returns would be 63%.

2.8 dpp vs 3.0 dpp = .93, on a 95% returns = 89%.

Empirically, 89% and 95% returns might be very difficult to differentiate from the noise of other players' eco.

 

[Me Really Never]

FYI, a difference of 2.0 dpp to 3.0 dpp is .66, on a 95% returns (for 3.0 dpp) the returns would be 63%.

2.8 dpp vs 3.0 dpp = .93, on a 95% returns = 89%.

Empirically, 89% and 95% returns might be very difficult to differentiate from the noise of other players' eco.

mathematically yes, but i have not seen any log (includign my own) that proves this. it gets balanced out to a certain degree and as long as it is not 100% clear how the loot works we just wont know.
considering this i find it hard to invest like 30k peds for a mathematical advantage of maybe 1% more eco that gets eaten up to 80% by the balancer. but each his own i guess...

 

[shoti]

Such discusions are on EF for years already. Without revealing by MA how loot works it all useless, even so called long term logs.
There are ppl who are profitable playing Black Jack or Roulette in casinos thinking they catch holly grail of those games when in reality what they showed is only flux in density of probablity.

Don't get me wrong. Revealing how loot works by MA is not as crazy move as it seems. Finally rules of games in casinos all well known and everyone with basic mathematical knowledge is aware of being on loosing side in long term. that is not preventing them from spending money. MA is not doing it from same reasons that they are not revealing for example No. of participants online like 95% of other MMO games is doing. Simply there is nothing fancy to show off with ( in this case that we are in "soft" casino in reality, and we are bind to losing whatever eco/skill/system/etc. use)