Question: Id like some input

[ermik]

I was thinking about how the loot works , and everyone say MA deal with tt value.

This would mean that over time , you will get back a certain % of tt spent , no matter what activity you spent it on ( of the main professions , hunting , mining and crafting )

And after reading alot of loot posts , hunting blogs etc etc , ive come to the conclusion that a 75-90% tt return is possible over time.

But , where does this put L weapons?

If i spend 1000 ped tt or Breer P5A , system see me spend 1000 ped , but in reality i spend 1080 ped tt , if p5a is bought at 108%.

To make this example even clearer , lets take a Adapted Monty , wich sells for 165-170% atm.

If i spend 1000 ped tt of adapted monty , system see me spend 1000 ped tt , and will make sure i get back about 750-900 ped of those peds , over time, but in reality i spent 1700 ped.

Or is system working from 2 ways , one part using tt spent , and one part recording HP killed of mob, cause thats the only way i can see any possible explanation to why some ppl have 75-90% avg tt return even when using high MU L guns for a long time.

or is it really that simple , that good dmg/pec only allows you to kill more mobs and therefore having a greater chance of a early payout ( hof,ath ) but not improving average return in any way.

because unless youre a gambler , that would mean that you should always use weapons with the least possible markup , even if high markup guns could have better dmg/pec in some situations.

Please , give me your thoughts , and pardon my hasty writing although i hope you get what im trying to explain and want to understand.

cheers

ermik

 

[xaph]

Simply discount markup from return, anything over TT is potentially waste and at your own risk....that is if returns were that predictable.

Good example
Adapted Monty I have has returned about 33% onTT with not much left to go before I put it in the grave

Cheers
2 pecs

 

[UnaAlconbury]

Imo system works with damage dealt. If it was only taking TT spent into consideration, good dmg/pec weapons wouldn't have any advantage over those with worse eco. TT spent is only used by us when talking returns as it's way easier to track. Still gives a rather good picture though, so let's stick with it.

If i spend 1000 ped tt of adapted monty , system see me spend 1000 ped tt , and will make sure i get back about 750-900 ped of those peds , over time, but in reality i spent 1700 ped.

Or is system working from 2 ways , one part using tt spent , and one part recording HP killed of mob, cause thats the only way i can see any possible explanation to why some ppl have 75-90% avg tt return even when using high MU L guns for a long time.

I believe all markup spent is 'lost' (perhaps apart from a small fraction that in some way gets compensated in the type of loot you get, as reported by some. But it won't raise your TT return imo), in other words you wouldn't get compensated for those extra 700 PED spent. To break even you will have to earn that back from markup looted.

So markup spent shouldn't interfere with TT return. In your example, did you mean 75-90% net return perhaps? Because same TT return even though using high MU stuff isn't strange.

because unless youre a gambler , that would mean that you should always use weapons with the least possible markup , even if high markup guns could have better dmg/pec in some situations.

More like this; always use the gun with least cost (incl markup) per damage dealt. A weapon with real good base eco (excl markup) can still have decent dmg/pec with a relatively high markup.

 

[sitram]

When you take into account tt value consider also the ammo/amp spent.

In case of adapted montgomery, even if the markup of the weapon is 180%, the low decay of the weapon makes the overall cost lower. By the time you finish spending those 1000 ped tt of weapon on which you payed 800 ped markup, in fact you have spent a lot more considering the ammo and tt of amp used. So the 800 ped spent on markup you have to related them to the total cost of firing the weapon not just the tt of weapon.

 

[ermik]

When you take into account tt value consider also the ammo/amp spent.

In case of adapted montgomery, even if the markup of the weapon is 180%, the low decay of the weapon makes the overall cost lower. By the time you finish spending those 1000 ped tt of weapon on which you payed 800 ped markup, in fact you have spent a lot more considering the ammo and tt of amp used. So the 800 ped spent on markup you have to related them to the total cost of firing the weapon not just the tt of weapon.

yes but the tt of the weapon is still tt spent , from the system point of view ?

sure i have to add ammo and amp , but since they dont have markup ( since i assume most hunters use UL amps ) i didnt feel they needed to be included in a markup focused loot discussion.

ermik

 

[JingyiDai]

I think in general it works like that.

However there is rumor about the rare or strange gear you use, it may lead you more likely to a more strange and weird discovery.

A lot of folks put their faith in high MV mining gears with extrem high MV. In hope they will get rare stuffs.

In conjuntion with the hunting and the crafting at high condition.

I think MA just count things at TT return.

But I think there is a slightly higher chance for rare stufs when you are using stuffs with higher decays , finder with deeper finds, guns with higher dps crafting in conditions.


But the rare stuffs are not neccerary rare or have high MV...

So my experiences tell me, there is no point in gamble with high MV stuffs in the hope to get high MV stuffs ...

the chance is so small, it is crazy.

Besides I suspect those rare item or stuffs, mean simply -> the loot system cant pay you back right now, because if it pays you back in normal % , the system will go bankrubt or failed epic...

so the rare or high MV loots are so sort way the loot system tells us -> dude you are spending too much and I cant pay you back right now... I am just a bald head old assed dude like you... pls mercy ... so here is something worthless..
but maybe you can sell it for a millions dollar and make a new world record.

Cheers

 

[Kerham]

I think it works in some thresholds and is taking in calculation ammo+decay spent on target, not the actual damage dealt.

Probably the type of weapon, skills so on and so forth regulates the variaiton of loot and its quality.

Otherwise (L) knifes and swords or even better nonSIB should be recipes for grand loss and is not the case.

On the other hand, I wouldn't dare to hunt with marber bravo.

But strictly to Adapted Monty, if we could imagine some weapon found on ground with same decay, same dmg/pec, same everything but which would be sold at 105%, them should pretty much behave the same, imo.

 

[das]

I gave this subject some thought a few months ago & my main Q was,
What IF MA worked with 2 numbers, a TT value & x% Markup MA takes into account for L stuff, like 105% for P5..

 

[sitram]

yes but the tt of the weapon is still tt spent , from the system point of view ?

sure i have to add ammo and amp , but since they dont have markup ( since i assume most hunters use UL amps ) i didnt feel they needed to be included in a markup focused loot discussion.

ermik

Why would only tt of the weapon be taken into account? Everything has a tt value in EU so everything, once used, could be considered as being decayed. When you shoot with a weapon you decay a % from the tt of the weapon, you decay ammo and you decay a % of the amp you use.

From my experience a weapon with higher markup doesn't give more rare items in loot. Some have attepmted several test regarding this subject on ef.com but none produced any conclusive results.

For me the average cost to deal damage(or the eco) and the probability of a mob to drop certain items that have markup is what's important. The average cost to deal damage includes weapon decay, markup on weapon, ammo spent, amp decay and markup on amp. Even if you pay 190% for a weapon, if it has a low decay/shot the actual markup you spend to that dmg comes down to ~1-2%.

A weapon with higher decay has lower ammo consumtion(eg BLP weapons), while those with lower decay have higher ammo consumption(eg. laser).

 

[das]

Why would only tt of the weapon be taken into account? Everything has a tt value in EU so everything, once used, could be considered as being decayed. When you shoot with a weapon you decay a % from the tt of the weapon, you decay ammo and you decay a % of the amp you use.

From my experience a weapon with higher markup doesn't give more rare items in loot. Some have attepmted several test regarding this subject on ef.com but none produced any conclusive results.

For me the average cost to deal damage(or the eco) and the probability of a mob to drop certain items that have markup is what's important. The average cost to deal damage includes weapon decay, markup on weapon, ammo spent, amp decay and markup on amp. Even if you pay 190% for a weapon, if it has a low decay/shot the actual markup you spend to that dmg comes down to ~1-2%.

A weapon with higher decay has lower ammo consumtion(eg BLP weapons), while those with lower decay have higher ammo consumption(eg. laser).

Well, i think there's more to it..
For example, my eco on imp287 is better then on my hl15
Still I get better returns using the hl15 (might be couse the imp isn't MAXED)

 

[mastermesh]

Whichever way it works, melee people still get screwed since Markup on blades and clubs is for 100% of the blade, not just the little bitty part that is the gun and then you get all this massive amount of tt without markup that is the ammo....

 

[jjmatrix]

Why would only tt of the weapon be taken into account? Everything has a tt value in EU so everything, once used, could be considered as being decayed. When you shoot with a weapon you decay a % from the tt of the weapon, you decay ammo and you decay a % of the amp you use.

From my experience a weapon with higher markup doesn't give more rare items in loot. Some have attepmted several test regarding this subject on ef.com but none produced any conclusive results.

For me the average cost to deal damage(or the eco) and the probability of a mob to drop certain items that have markup is what's important. The average cost to deal damage includes weapon decay, markup on weapon, ammo spent, amp decay and markup on amp. Even if you pay 190% for a weapon, if it has a low decay/shot the actual markup you spend to that dmg comes down to ~1-2%.

A weapon with higher decay has lower ammo consumtion(eg BLP weapons), while those with lower decay have higher ammo consumption(eg. laser).

I agree; I would also add armour and FAP decay into the mix (if you use them obviously).

 

[sitram]

Well, i think there's more to it..
For example, my eco on imp287 is better then on my hl15
Still I get better returns using the hl15 (might be couse the imp isn't MAXED)

I wouldn't switch to i2870 from hl15 unless I have lvl 80+ in both hit and dmg.

What's your current profession levels for Laser pistols Hit and Dmg related profession?

 

[Legion]

i think that yes the system itself just count tt sort of. However i also think that using the right gun/armor etc for x mob gives you a better chance of getting better items in the loot, and this also takes into consideration eq markup. Or rather MA has a target value of this should be worth so and so much and because it's worth that much it also makes it easier to loot this item x with such and such markup. So it's a combination sort of.

 

[ermik]

what im trying to get out of this is the discussion around if system is based on tt spent or hp killed, or even mobs killed.

my point is , if system is based on tt spent , then using L gear with high MU is terrible in the long run.

if you dont get lucky and loot something special then in the long run if system treats you with 80% of tt spent you will be bad off using L gear with MU.

again bare in mind im not arguing for a theory here , just discussing what it would mean if system worked as i gave as example.

 

[Naifas Anaconda]

It could be a mixture of both... (Damage dealt to a mob + decay on your gear)/2.. dunno.

 

[sitram]

what im trying to get out of this is the discussion around if system is based on tt spent or hp killed, or even mobs killed.

my point is , if system is based on tt spent , then using L gear with high MU is terrible in the long run.

if you dont get lucky and loot something special then in the long run if system treats you with 80% of tt spent you will be bad off using L gear with MU.

again bare in mind im not arguing for a theory here , just discussing what it would mean if system worked as i gave as example.

Isn't this the reason why ppl are willing to pay so much for i2870, imk2, MM or adj/imp/mod faps?

 

[sitram]

If we take Skippie as example, he uses MM and mod fap which have a very low decay compared to L items. Yet he looted a shitload of markup so far.

 

[Makitoki]

i dont do any coding or programming but do you guys honestly think MA is that hardcore to set up x amount of variable for all weapons used on selected mobs to determine loot and make it all avatar based?


wouldnt it be easier to just say set mob has xxx amount of hp needs an avg of x amount of ped (decay+amp+ammo) to kill and on the theory of large numbers to pay out said fixed xx% over time.

also just a thought if loot is avatar based and u think MA is tracking ur avatar individually why dont u shoot 10k peds with an opalo in the air then go spent 20k ped killing a mob and let me know if ur return is 75 to 90% of total ammont ur avatar has cycled though.

 

[Kerham]

i dont do any coding or programming but do you guys honestly think MA is that hardcore to set up x amount of variable for all weapons used on selected mobs to determine loot and make it all avatar based?

wouldnt it be easier to just say set mob has xxx amount of hp needs an avg of x amount of ped (decay+amp+ammo) to kill and on the theory of large numbers to pay out said fixed xx% over time.

also just a thought if loot is avatar based and u think MA is tracking ur avatar individually why dont u shoot 10k peds with an opalo in the air then go spent 20k ped killing a mob and let me know if ur return is 75 to 90% of total ammont ur avatar has cycled though.

You're making the points too extreme. No, I wouldn't expect to shoot 10k peds in air then get 9k ped next loot. No, I don't see what that has to do with avatar_based loot.

But then again I wouldn't expect to get an ATH as big as the sum of my deposits, as in your case which is of course just a coincidence Or not, not a coincidence, how did you said "law of large numbers"

That's the problem with avatar-based loot man, exactly that's why is avatar-based. Because such "coincidences" happen only for some people. Incidentally people who are lucky again and again and again and so on until they get the common sense to quit and then appear others who get lucky again and again and again and so on viva EU.

 

[Makitoki]

You're making the points too extreme. No, I wouldn't expect to shoot 10k peds in air then get 9k ped next loot. No, I don't see what that has to do with avatar_based loot.

But then again I wouldn't expect to get an ATH as big as the sum of my deposits, as in your case which is of course just a coincidence Or not, not a coincidence, how did you said "law of large numbers"

That's the problem with avatar-based loot man, exactly that's why is avatar-based. Because such "coincidences" happen only for some people. Incidentally people who are lucky again and again and again and so on until they get the common sense to quit and then appear others who get lucky again and again and again and so on viva EU.

my point was i personally dont believe loot is avatar based, it's activity based (actually i dont know what it's based ), but then again all theories are as good as the next with out actual proof we're all full of shit. i just know for shit to drop i got to keep killing as cheap as possible to increase my chance of looting anything, and as far as lucky ppl go it's amazing how the top 50 hunter has hardly changed much since entropia tracker started, i guess those ppl are just that lucky for the last 20 months+ (or however long entropia tracker been active). or maybe they're not posting on how much they've lost they just got peds to burn and help out the few lucky big loots we see.

 

[ermik]

my point was i personally dont believe loot is avatar based, it's activity based (actually i dont know what it's based ), but then again all theories are as good as the next with out actual proof we're all full of shit. i just know for shit to drop i got to keep killing as cheap as possible to increase my chance of looting anything, and as far as lucky ppl go it's amazing how the top 50 hunter has hardly changed much since entropia tracker started, i guess those ppl are just that lucky for the last 20 months+ (or however long entropia tracker been active). or maybe they're not posting on how much they've lost they just got peds to burn and help out the few lucky big loots we see.

who said anything about the 50 top hunters on tracker making profit?

they cycle a shitload of peds , globals tend to come that way and does not in any way gurantee profit.

cheers

ermik

 

[Makitoki]

who said anything about the 50 top hunters on tracker making profit?

they cycle a shitload of peds , globals tend to come that way and does not in any way gurantee profit.

cheers

ermik

you're exactly right, please point out where the word profit was used, or referenced to that they're all profiting?

i was pointing out a fact that the top 50 has hardly changed and that they're just the dumbest bunch to keep doing what they're doing for the past 20 months, cuz most of em cycle between 70k to 200k a month and getting just 90% return back means they losing 7 to 20k a month and to keep doing it for over 20 months means they been losing their asses off so we should all thank em for filling up the loot pool since they're not profiting and just glad to help out the community

 

[ermik]

you're exactly right, please point out where the word profit was used, or referenced to that they're all profiting?

i was pointing out a fact that the top 50 has hardly changed and that they're just the dumbest bunch to keep doing what they're doing for the past 20 months, cuz most of em cycle between 70k to 200k a month and getting just 90% return back means they losing 7 to 20k a month and to keep doing it for over 20 months means they been losing their asses off so we should all thank em for filling up the loot pool since they're not profiting and just glad to help out the community

some of em may also be selling loot for MU , thus making profit , not in tt , but in total. but far from all.

 

[Makitoki]

some of em may also be selling loot for MU , thus making profit , not in tt , but in total. but far from all.

i agree 100%, as a whole (all of us) will never beat the tt, yes a few that deposits 500 bucks hits a 20k trox and quits (happened to a rl friend of mine) will win but if u play for the long haul no chance of ever beating the tt. i dont know what other's return is or was, but i have my own data of all my hunts recorded, and i can say i have 94.6% tt return after 450k cycled in the last 7 months (94.6% is decay of gun, amp, and ammo used ONLY, not counting armor or fap, or mu of guns used (which was ALOT)). and i can see where my peds went. compared to a hunter with better skills (saving in armor decay) better fap, and the skill to use a ul super eco weapon (i2870, mm, mod/imp anything ) i can see why it's possible to profit. in fact i know one hunter who's consistently making monthly withdraws even though he doesnt beat the tt but the savings in what it cost him to kill a mob vs what it costs me to kill a mob. he might only save 50 to 55pec on each scip but now multiply that by 15k scips a month and off of savings alone he's ahead of me by 7k peds and that's not counting mu of items looted...