Help: My new TWEN Token Fund - An Equal Opportunity for All!!!

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

Hi there, some of you may know me some of you may not. I have been running my rental service and investment fund for the last 5 years, with this being the funds 3rd year. I want to create a new fund around TWEN tokens and items to work together and accomplish more as a group than as we could as individuals. A lot of us do not have the time or money to grind or bot enough tokens to pull items from the vendor. However if a bunch of us pool resources we could.

On this thread I would like constructive feedback on how to build and manage the new fund I created. Right now it is simply invest tokens, pull items, .... Profit. But some people pointed out that it might be better to rent them and keep them in the fund for the players to use instead of them going into the hands of an uber and never getting to touch the weapon. To make this work will require a lot of people coming together so I want to make sure I do it right.

You can see what it currently says behind the spoiler. I put it that way so im not taking up a lot of space with what is already written elsewhere.

Spoiler: TWEN Token Fund Thread

Grinding TWEN tokens hoping to get enough for an item before they are all gone? Or just tired of selling them to traders/ubers and watching them reap all the profits? Well here is a chance for us casual or mid-level players to band together and level the playing field.

How it works.

Players trade me their TWEN Tokens and it is inputted on a google spreadsheet that investors with 1000 or more tokens can see. As a player acquires more tokens and trades them to me I continue to tally them up.

There are two options, you make a long-term investment to pull TWEN items for renting out, or a short term investment where I just pull an item once I have a buyer and sell it.

If you chose a long-term investment once I have enough tokens for the desired item I pull it the item is now owned by all long-term token investors according to the % of their tokens to total tokens in the long-term fund. Then the process repeats. Players invest more tokens I pull another item it gets added to the list of TWEN items owned by the fund for rentals. Rinse and repeat.

If you pick a short-term investment I will put the items up for sale and once completed the ped from the sales will be split according to players % of ownership using the FIFO(First In First Out) as the method of tracking. If get more tokens than needed to pull the item for sale, the remainder will start the next item's queue.

I will have full discretion on which items to pull and how much they sell for, but I will consult with knowledgeable investors and other players to do my best for the benefit of all who have entrusted their tokens to me. I have the option to receive a commission equal to no more than 5% of total sale value of all items, but no less than 2% managing the short-term TWEN fund.

Once invested, tokens are NOT refundable. If you are depositing them into this endeavor there is no changing your mind, as I can not be about to pull an item and someone decides they want to sell their handful of tokens and then I am unable to purchase said item. IF I end up not using the tokens because we were unable to gather enough, all tokens will then be refunded.

I am not liable for any change in TWEN token value between the time of deposit and the time an item is pulled or sold. I may develop a buyout option for players to sell their token shares to each other.

I would like this to be a fund that owns the items pulled, that way in the future if MindArk releases corporations and our own share systems similar to EVE online as mentioned in the UE5 updates I can convert shares on the google sheets right into the actual game system, but that is only a hope down the road for now. So I am giving players the option for quick sales or long-term investment.

I will flesh out this concept as I get more feedback from players, but I wanted to start it up because there is a race going on, and we have a chance of winning if we work together. Yes you can sell your tokens for a few ped to the traders, but that is only a small part of what the tokens real value is. This gives you an opportunity to get paid that full value.


Please keep responses on topic. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is appreciated, trolling/flaming is not.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas and working together for a common goal.

What do you think? How can I make this better? Please keep feedback constructive. No flaming/trolling/off-topic posts.


UPDATE: So I decided to split it into two funds, players that wish to invest long-term and keep items for rentals and dividends, and players that just want to pool tokens for quick sales. I updated the spoiler section to reflect the changes on the thread in the services section. I also go it a new url of tinyurl.com/TWENTOKENFUND. Please read the new setup and make suggestions or if you see a possible problem let me know!

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

Before I collected my first token I sent in a support case asking whether I would get locked for running a TWEN token fund due to what happened to StevieB.(I have consent to use his name mods) Mindark gave me their approval and green light to run the fund. Here is a copy/paste of their response in it's entirety.

Hi Xan,

Thank you for your support case.

As you've stated it currently, just having a share like other funds that exists is not a problem, however it is not something we support just like lending and as such can encounter the same kinds of issues both for you and other involved parties.

However most of it depends on your reputation and is as such possible.

As for locks, as you know it is our way to take action and as such it will not be communicated to you beforehand, however just like in other situations it will most likely quickly resolved and you will be unlocked but that is something we must warn you off.

Take care and best of luck.

Kind regards,
Entropia Universe Support

Please note, while I do have their consent to run the fund, they do not support it. Meaning it is still based on trust and players invest at their own risk. I do however do my best to minimize as much risk as possible.

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

Reserved for future use.

 

[The Great Adventurer]

Thanks for putting this together!

I'm not impressed by MindArk's sort of rug pull of the top item in game but will still casually grind some tokens, nothing in the way of what I had planned prior to their reminder of how they do business.

I'll join in your efforts and give my input on how I'd prefer this to be run:

- I would prefer that you focus on collecting tokens and managing the fund while simultaneously lining up buyers for items.

- There should be commitment by those who invest their tokens. Once invested, you're locked in with whatever you invest. This makes is easier for you to manage and guarantees the rest of the participants don't get left hanging by someone who withdraws early. It would suck being close to an item pull only to have someone withdraw their share and we miss out on one of the better items. With that said it shouldn't be mandatory to invest any and all token you loot as you're splitting by % invested.

- Your rental fund could be a buyer which guarantees a payout for the token investors but it would need to be at market value without any special discounts.

- I would not like the item be kept and rented in your service, there's too much risk of devaluation in the current market conditions and that means both the item price and rental price would also be devalued. I'd prefer to be paid a lump sum rather than a dividend payment in this case. MindArk may decide to rug pull on something else as well, who knows. There's too much volatility and risk. Especially if they continue to pump out higher end gear for players, which isn't a bad thing but it does mean supply catching up with demand.

- To avoid prying eyes the Google Sheet should only be shared with those who have invested 1000 tokens or more. This would indicate commitment and avoids other players keeping track of our progress for free.

- The sheet should show items for which you have lined up buyers and the price they have agreed upon.

- The option to forego payout and invest our share in your rental fund would be good.

That's all I have for now.

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

- I would prefer that you focus on collecting tokens and managing the fund while simultaneously lining up buyers for items.

Thanks for the feedback. I had set it this way originally as it is the simplest and most straightforward way to run this.

- There should be commitment by those who invest their tokens. Once invested, you're locked in with whatever you invest. This makes is easier for you to manage and guarantees the rest of the participants don't get left hanging by someone who withdraws early. It would suck being close to an item pull only to have someone withdraw their share and we miss out on one of the better items. With that said it shouldn't be mandatory to invest any and all token y. ou loot as you're splitting by % invested.

Good advice, I think I will make these changes. There never was a plan to make anything mandatory, I can't force anyone to do something.

- Your rental fund could be a buyer which guarantees a payout for the token investors but it would need to be at market value without any special discounts.

If I am going to do the two different funds I don't want to mix them, as I had a bad experience with a previous fund that that sold assets to another fund owned by the same person for their personal profit. That is what led me to create my first fund.

- I would not like the item be kept and rented in your service, there's too much risk of devaluation in the current market conditions and that means both the item price and rental price would also be devalued. I'd prefer to be paid a lump sum rather than a dividend payment in this case. MindArk may decide to rug pull on something else as well, who knows. There's too much volatility and risk. Especially if they continue to pump out higher end gear for players, which isn't a bad thing but it does mean supply catching up with demand.

I planned on keeping the two services separate entities, the idea of renting the TWEN items was only going to split among the TWEN token investors. But this new info does make straightforward sales seem the way to go. This is also why my rental service fund shares are not based on items in the fund as it would not be possible to keep them a fixed value otherwise.

- To avoid prying eyes the Google Sheet should only be shared with those who have invested 1000 tokens or more. This would indicate commitment and avoids other players keeping track of our progress for free.

That is a good idea, at least if they want to track us they have to pay up some tokens to do so. Haha.

- The sheet should show items for which you have lined up buyers and the price they have agreed upon.

I have to figure out how to do this so that trades don't get sniped, yet I keep things transparent. The who would have to be kept hidden. But this then brings up the question if I have 120k tokens invested by players but the item only needs 100k tokens, how do I split this up for appropriate payments. FIFO? (first in first out) As in token investment by date, and then once the 100k is hit the next 20k starts flowing into the next item?

- The option to forego payout and invest our share in your rental fund would be good.

That is a good idea, but I would have to get a second set of permission from the player after the sale to confirm that is what they want to do with their ped. It is a good way to grow the other fund while still keeping them two distinct and unrelated entities by giving players the option to reinvest in me elsewhere if they like what I am doing with TWEN tokens.




This is still early and a lot has to be discussed before any pull or sale takes place, but its a great start into the right direction. I will keep updating the other thread as I get more feedback from players. Diamond had been invested in my rental service previously so has some good insight into how my rental fund works, so the suggestions he is making come with some practical experience working with me in the past. Thanks mate, always a pleasure.

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

I am copying a response to some questions from the other thread. Would love some more feedback, and hope it also helps answer some questions here. I plan on building an FAQ section, so please, ask away! If I have already answered a question you think should be in the FAQ please comment with those questions/answers. Thanks!

1. At what value of tokens are you going to calculate what people get paid ?

Long-Term fund will be # Your Tokens % of total # tokens in the fund.
Short-Term fund will be # of Your Tokens % of # of tokens to pull item.

2. At what value of tokens are you planning to do refunds if you fail to pull the items ?At what people invested or at value they are worth at time you decide to do refunds?

I am only trading for tokens, so you will get back what you put in. I can't give a ped value, the market changes minute to minute depending on who is buying. Updates happen. What if suddenly tokens become more valuable than when they were traded to me, do I got to pocket the difference? By pegging a certain ped value to them at the time of trade I am essentially buying them.

3. How would people be paid on the items you add to your Rental business and when ?

The items purchased with the long-term tokens invested will be owned by the fund. My rental service is just that, a rental service. My rental service fund, is also a service. Neither own any of the items because I guarantee the principle investment. I retain ownership of all the items used in it except those that other players ask me to rent out on their behalf.
But I would probably duplicate how I run my rental service with the TWEN Token rentals. Dividends on rentals paid out once a month based on your % of the total Tokens used in the fund.

4. Since atm the economical situation is kind of off in Entropia and most experienced players notice it what guarantees that you will be able to actually rent those items and do payments ?

The only guarantee I can offer is that you will receive a % of any income based on your stake in either of the funds. It wouldn't be an investment if there was 0 risk. Short of Mindark forbidding me doing this or the game getting shut down, regardless of the value of the items people will rent them. In fact, the cheaper the items are the easier it will be to rent them, so in that sense token devaluation is a good thing. On the other, those opting for the invest to sell model, I would only be pulling after finding a buyer and receiving a partial down-payment on the item being pulled.

5. What happens if you are unable to do payments on the items you are renting ?

I don't understand this question. If it is renting, then you are getting paid. If I stop running the rental service, the items would be sold and then you would still be paid. Either way once the items are pulled payment is coming.

6. How long do you think it will take for investors with your plan to make a return on their original investment?

As soon as an item is pulled it will go up for sale/rent. At which point market forces determine the size or rate of return. Given I already have a rental service running it probably would not be long to start seeing rentals show up, and the more items the more rentals. Each unique item added increases the chance that any given customer will find an item they wish to rent. And as far as sales go, who knows? The faster we get to a vendor pull the more likely someone will want to buy it since the market is not flooded yet.


I own no personal stake in the long-term rental fund. I am only offering the service of managing it as an independent 3rd party. I only get paid when the investors get paid. I simply would like to be able to pull one of every item to have in the rental fund so that all players can have access to the TWEN items instead of them only being accessible to a few. I also think it could be lucrative, and it would complement my current rental service without directly benefitting it financially.

As far as the short-term fund. This was an idea suggested by a player, so I figured I would add this as an option of investment if that is what more players are inclined to pick. And any tokens I happen to loot while playing will be undergoing the exact same changes in price, I am not buying up tokens nor do I plan to. Though I might consider selling shares in my normal rental service for tokens as a means of procurement of more tokens but that would need more discussion, whether people would feel comfortable with that, and how that would work. But that can lead to a conflict of interest then between the two funds, which is why so far they are completely separate entities and I work on commission only.

 

[DRAGUNOV44]

So you are basicly paying back thise people in tokens from what you are saying . You realise by the end of this those tokens would be worth nothing right cus there will be more tokens and nothing to buy ?

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

So you are basically paying back these people in tokens from what you are saying . You realize by the end of this those tokens would be worth nothing right beacuse there will be more tokens and nothing to buy ?

No, players will be paid in ped, unless nothing is pulled, then their tokens are returned to them. I can't do anything about the market rate of tokens, it will go up and down based on what is pulled and any updates MindArk makes, or if they restock the vendor, there are a million things that can affect token value outside of my control for better or worse. So the faster we get items pulled out the better. The more likely people will invest more tokens, which means more items, which means more ped, which means more tokens. It will snowball and the more items we can get for the fund the better, and the sooner we do it the better. It is all about working together.

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

I got approval from Mindark to run the fund, I will be posting that information soon. Also have gotten a few investors already so we are on our way! The more people join and the faster they do it, the better their returns will be. And they will earn way more than what you can sell a token for if you think long-term over the course of a few months-year.

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

What would you guys thing if i offered a 5% guarantee at whatever market price is at the time of each trade. People who invest sooner will get a higher rate than those that invest later, however this promises players something for their tokens. In return I get 5% of the income from what those tokens would bring in since I am now buying them at that rate. in the future. If tokens are refunded player may choose to the ped amount agreed on or the tokens.

This is the best way i could think of a compromise where players feel like they are at least getting something for sure, but is also me not purchasing tokens or mixing any of my personal tokens in the fund to avoid possible issues down the road.

To be clear I would not be paying anyone any ped. It would be a trade of tokens for investment just as before. But we will mark down the market price at the time of trade and the player will be guaranteed 5% of that if I close the fund. The idea is to give players SOME security and to make investing sooner rather than later more profitable. The longer we go the more items get pulled the less tokens are worth, we want to get some decent item pulls BEFORE they are all gone. I tried setting this up where I would have no ownership stake in the fund so players would feel more comfortable investing,

 

[shaun117]

What do you put in? Or is this another cash grab opportunity you jump on with the * im managing your funds for a slice of your pie attitude*

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

I got approval from Mindark to run the fund, I will be posting that information soon.

Getting approval and it being a good idea are two different things. I'm truly struggling to figure out HOW anyone actually benefits from this except you to get free tokens with a "hope" that you will give people back a small percentage over time.

I truly truly think that if you just thought this through, you would not be losing the respect that you had before this whole debacle.

Maybe if you spent more time coming up with the idea instead of sending this shit out a day AFTER the tokens started dropping.

I'm not saying this is a scam.

I am stating the perception of the whole situation from the outside and it is just genuinely NOT a good look.

But we will mark down the market price at the time of trade and the player will be guaranteed 5% of that if I close the fund.

So you are refunding 5% when this goes tits up? Damn you're making out like a bandit.

In return I get 5% of the income from what those tokens would bring in since I am now buying them at that rate.

Why do you believe this is okay to do?


It just seems like you are jumping through hoops to do something that you think is helping the player base, where in all actually it's just allowing you prop up your other businesses in a loosely veiled "Lets do this together" Where people have been able to make VERY good ped RIGHT NOW selling their tokens.

Also what is defined as the market value? Are you going to take the price that the lowest buyer is buying at currently?


There's still so many questions and so little information. Like I said, before this TWEN thing, I respected you, although you lowball on everything, I respected you.
Now I have people messaging me asking "hey is this a scam?" "Hey is this similar to other funds?" "Hey I thought this guy was legit, you recommended him in the past".

Just be better.

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

I am working to address all these concerns. And I appreciate your comments being honest and genuine and not just trolling.

Getting approval and it being a good idea are two different things. I'm truly struggling to figure out HOW anyone actually benefits from this except you to get free tokens with a "hope" that you will give people back a small percentage over time.

To be clear, I am not getting free tokens. I am not trying to buy them, I am not trying to get people to donate them to me. Yes there is a 'hope' aspect because I do need to get enough tokens to be able to pull an item for this to work, and the sooner that happens the sooner this will stop appearing as something it is not.

I truly truly think that if you just thought this through, you would not be losing the respect that you had before this whole debacle.

Maybe if you spent more time coming up with the idea instead of sending this shit out a day AFTER the tokens started dropping.

I'm not saying this is a scam.

I am stating the perception of the whole situation from the outside and it is just genuinely NOT a good look.

The idea is very simple. Crowdfunding tokens to create a new rental fund made of only TWEN Items owned entirely by the investors. In contrast to my current fund where I own all the items but I am guaranteeing your principle investment to create fixed share price to use as collateral for the rentals. The type of players that would participate and rent from these two rental services are different types of players.

So you are refunding 5% when this goes tits up? Damn you're making out like a bandit.

Why do you believe this is okay to do?

Refunding is not the right word I should change that. I am not buying the tokens, so there is nothing for me to refund. I am providing a guarantee of a % of the value of the tokens. I don't actually want to offer any guarantee or purchase any tokens and not because I do not believe in what I am doing, because I do. I just do not want to have my money mixed up with that of the investors in owning the items. It makes keeping track of the PED a lot harder and can lead potential conflicts of interest down the line which I have learned from experience running my current fund. If my money is NOT a part of the system. Then all of my actions can ONLY be for the benefit of those invested, as the only way I earn ANY money is through a commission. A commission REQUIRES sales/rentals which means if I want to make money, I have to first make money for those who invested.

It just seems like you are jumping through hoops to do something that you think is helping the player base, where in all actually it's just allowing you prop up your other businesses in a loosely veiled "Lets do this together" Where people have been able to make VERY good ped RIGHT NOW selling their tokens.

The people complaining about this the most are not my target demographic of players. This is mainly for the casual player who can't grind or doesn't want to grind for tokens endlessly to get an item. And while yes they can make good ped right now, the people benefitting most from that are those getting to pull the weapons and sell them down the road. They would not offer more ped than what they think they can make a profit on. So while you might be able to get a ped and change for tokens, that amount will go down, and then tokens will really only be good for the high level players who can grind them in volume. Because after the first few top tier items are pulled, price drops steeply, and there is still another steep drop in the future. The whole purpose of doing this NOW is so that all of the regular every day joe players can get one of THOSE items, instead of being left with scraps or tokens just not being worth grinding anymore.

Also what is defined as the market value? Are you going to take the price that the lowest buyer is buying at currently?

That is the whole reason i did not want to offer any money for tokens in the first place. How do you define market value on an item that is constantly changing price just based on who is buying or how many players are online at a given time competing to sell? The purpose of only taking tokens and no ped being involved avoids ALL of that hassle. Especially considering we got 3 months of tokens dropping. Lets do a short hypothetical. An average casual player invests tokens today, and then again in a week, and the week after, etc. Token prices constantly changing, how do I track what % of the income of rentals they should get. The value of the tokens is not fixed, and is changing. The only way I could think of to normalize the value of the tokens to rental income was to take away them being pegged to a ped value and instead make it a % of the total tokens used to get the item/items in the fund. But to answer your question, market value would be defined by what I agree to with the player at the time of the transaction.

There's still so many questions and so little information. Like I said, before this TWEN thing, I respected you, although you lowball on everything, I respected you.
Now I have people messaging me asking "hey is this a scam?" "Hey is this similar to other funds?" "Hey I thought this guy was legit, you recommended him in the past".

Just be better.

I am trying to do better. I posted this in it's raw form for the purpose of getting feedback to MAKE it better while still trying not to lose out on the diminishing amount of time in which there is to capitalize on tokens. I am editing and adjusting according to feedback, I am making proposals for potential ideas, and instead of people meeting me halfway I am only being met with being called a scam artist or a liar or fraud. If I was truly trying to screw people over why would I make what I am trying to do so transparent? People felt my initial 10% commission rate was too high, that number didn't come from me, it came from other players I asked before I posted this, but I cut it in half after the responses. The market value is something I am going to have to haggle over for every fucking trade for the entirety of this duration of me accepting tokens from players. And knowing this, I still proposed some sort of market value based guarantee just so I could give players "some kind of guarantee" because that's what they all wanted and asked for, I am not proposing it to 'make out like a bandit' because quite frankly, I could make more ped flipping tokens than I can doing this and with less headache or threat to my reputation. (And if you can not tell, I dropped my professionalism in that last sentence just so you can get an idea of how much I loathe having to do that just so I can try and give the players what they want at my own emotional/psychological expense. Otherwise I really do enjoy what I do with my normal rental service. I like providing services. I hate haggling and flipping items/trading. I spent a decade doing it in other games where the money had no real cash value, and now that I am in a game where it does I am too sick of doing it to want to make a profession out of it. It is soul sucking. Not to mention sales was my real life job whenever I was able to work.)

I truly think that having a copy of every single TWEN item in a rental fund assessable to ALL players and not just the ubers would benefit the player base and those who had the foresight to invest in it. (because you might get 1-2 ped per token now, but rentals can become multiple or exponential ped per token plus whatever the items might sell for when I close down at some future point.) So many of the FEN weapons remained out players grasp for so long or the prices were jacked so high they were inaccessible. I am sincerely trying to provide a net positive result for all involved.

I know it is a lot of text, and people instinctively read negatively into text. But I really hope you see Angela that I have no ill intent here, no malicious desire to screw people, I won't deny it was hastily done and sloppy, it wasn't even my idea, it was a request from players who saw my other fund and thought I should do something for TWEN. And I had no clue StevieB was doing whatever he was doing, I am asking the players not only to invest their tokens, but their ideas since it is they that will own the items, and I would be working for them. Down the line the idea would be to map this into whatever player run share system MindArk cooks up to make it completely legit. Until then, I am only doing the best I can.