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FYI: Skill gain stacking

miathan

miathan

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Alindrina Alli Golden
This is kind of a follow up thread to https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...is-incorrect-skill-pills-do-not-stack.287115/
That thread shows that stacking skill pills doesn't actually work. You only get the effect from the highest pill.

The same seems to be true for skill gain from items and how it stacks with other items, or other pills.
This might not be that surprising since auto loot works the same, you only get the loot distance from the highest item or pill.

I have run test myself but the data presented below is actually from another player. Others have also arrived at the same conclusion.

Four different setups was tested. The only thing that was change in the for tests was the skill gain items/pills.
  1. No skill gain items.
  2. Coat (25%)
  3. Coat + Ring (25%+25%=50%)
  4. Coat + Pill (25%+20%=45%)
I stacking works there should be a significate difference between test 2 and 3 (and test 2 and 4).

Results​

Skill points gained (should be TT but all tests where done in a small range so almost irrelevant):
1 vs 21 vs 31 vs 4
Run 1132 %115%122%
Run 2122%119%140%
Run 3140%123%114%
Skill lines gained
1 vs 21 vs 31 vs 4
Run 1131%125%127%
Run 2115%108%123%
Run 3115%121%111%

This, together with other data I have seen, tells me skill gain buffs works like auto loot buffs. That is, they don't stack. You only get the max of the items/pills you have.
Might argue more data is needed to show conclusive evidence though..

Me, and others, have reported this bug quite some time ago. Several releases has gone by without any changes.
 
Now people can stop lying in there forum sale posts. I told people they don’t stack.
 
So basically every skill gain item is useless? Cause anyone that has opened more than 1 Strongbox should be swimming in 30% pills?
 
I believe you but I think more information is needed for conclusive results.

How long were the tests?

Was one singular skill measured or all skills?

How were temporary skill boosts treated? I would think it to be fair that hunting should of been paused during skill boosts as to not muddy the results.
 
Slept on it and decided to remove my post.
 
Last edited:
I don't think this test is relevant, because it mixes items and pills.

Items are a completely different buff then pills, the items are like a permanent random boost.
For example, when I had the 25% coat + 25% ring, I had a permanent 50% temp buff (not to be confused with pill buff). Getting an extra temp buff, would increase the value, e.g. getting +50% random boost with make the total boost +100%. The buff was maxed at 300%.
This buff increased the VALUE of the skill, not the LINES.

Pills increase the number of LINES. This is a separate icon buff.

So the test should not combine the coat buff with pill buff, as coat increases value and pill increases lines.

If you redo the test properly and only measure the exact TT value gained, it might be more relevant.
Measuring the TT value will take both lines and value into account.

And you need to provide the cycle PED amount, e.g. 10k PED cycle should provide relevant data.

So you need to do a 10k PED cycle for each:
* with no skill buffs
* then with coat
* then coat + ring
* then coat + ring + 50% pill
* then coat + ring + 100% pill

Measure exact TT for each case and you will have your answer.

If the cycle is too small, you results will be skewed by the random skill buffs.
 
Do ya'll even read...

Let me summarize:

Pills increase number of skill lines gained.
Item buffs also increase number of skill lines gained.
Neither increases the amount of total skill per line gained.
Just to reiterate: Skill boosts, either of the pill version, the item version, or the random skill buff version, all simply increase frequency of your skill gains, and not the amount per line. This is tested and confirmed.

1) With only an item buff (25%) Skill gain increased 25%
2) With two item buffs (25% and 25%) Skill gain increased 25%
3) With one item buff and one pill buff (25% and 20%). Skill gain increased 25%

The OP literally spelled it out....

Final note: Tester removed random skill buffs by logging out or dying.
 
Last edited:
Jhereg said:
Do ya'll even read...
Click to expand...

He could say the same about you. It's pointless throwing such remarks better to state the actual evidence and address the valid concerns e.g. like Katie said above:
How long were the tests?
Was one singular skill measured or all skills?

If you disagree with what siremi said e.g.:
"
For example, when I had the 25% coat + 25% ring, I had a permanent 50% temp buff (not to be confused with pill buff). Getting an extra temp buff, would increase the value, e.g. getting +50% random boost with make the total boost +100%. The buff was maxed at 300%.
This buff increased the VALUE of the skill, not the LINES."

then provide something to prove that he is wrong or where he went wrong or same applies to him ask him how he did his tests to arrive at different conclusions

Edit:
Point being you can't both be right so have to figure out who or what went wrong
 
miathan said:
  1. No skill gain items.
  2. Coat (25%)
  3. Coat + Ring (25%+25%=50%)
  4. Coat + Pill (25%+20%=45%)
I stacking works there should be a significate difference between test 2 and 3 (and test 2 and 4).

Results​

Skill points gained (should be TT but all tests where done in a small range so almost irrelevant):
1 vs 21 vs 31 vs 4
Run 1132 %115%122%
Run 2122%119%140%
Run 3140%123%114%
Skill lines gained
1 vs 21 vs 31 vs 4
Run 1131%125%127%
Run 2115%108%123%
Run 3115%121%111%
Click to expand...
I am a little confused about the data you are providing here. If i take the average for the 3 runs and the total increas in skill gain combining the skill lines gained it should look somewhat like this.

11 vs 21 vs 31 vs 4
Skill Points100%131%119%125%
Skill Lines100%120%118%120%
Total100%157%140%150%

looking at a nearly 160% total skill gain increas from the coat that has a 25% buff.
I can see a fluctuation of 5-10% with the way skill gains work in short runs but 35% semse a little far off and rather puts the whole buff in question then how item+pill works.

maybe im completly wrong but was at least interesting to look into never really looked skill buffs up in how they exactly work before :)
 
GeorgeSkywalker said:
Point being you can't both be right so have to figure out who or what went wrong
Click to expand...
Side note: you liked both posts.

IMHO, it shouldn't make a difference whether the gain is in lines or value. After you completed a <your favourite number> PED-run, the result should be an increase by the intended (and understandable) percentage. So it's more like:
  • How is this stacking of buffs supposed to work?
  • Does it work differently on different things like Skill Gain, Evade, Increased Crits, ...?
    • Pick highest or add up?
    • (maybe someone drew conclusions from one thing/test and applied it to everything else leading to confusion)
  • Are we talking about percentages or percentage points?
 
Frilas said:
I am a little confused about the data you are providing here. If i take the average for the 3 runs and the total increas in skill gain combining the skill lines gained it should look somewhat like this.

11 vs 21 vs 31 vs 4
Skill Points100%131%119%125%
Skill Lines100%120%118%120%
Total100%157%140%150%

looking at a nearly 160% total skill gain increas from the coat that has a 25% buff.
I can see a fluctuation of 5-10% with the way skill gains work in short runs but 35% semse a little far off and rather puts the whole buff in question then how item+pill works.

maybe im completly wrong but was at least interesting to look into never really looked skill buffs up in how they exactly work before :)
Click to expand...
You misinterpret the numbers. Skill points and skill lines is just two ways of looking at the skill gain. You can't multiply or add them together.
Skill points is the total points gained (almost equal to tt skills gained). Skill lines are the total skill lines.
 
I (we) don't have access to the items to do the tests anymore. I kind of agree that more data would be interesting.
However, I will not waste any more PEDs on stacking skill pills or investing in skill gear.
This data together with some more data not shared here got me convinced this doesn't work.
I would really love for others doing the tests and sharing the data.
Either the UI is bugged (showing stacking works) or the system is bugged.
Like I said in the original post, I have reported this to MA (and I know others that have as well).
 
GeorgeSkywalker said:
He could say the same about you. It's pointless throwing such remarks better to state the actual evidence and address the valid concerns e.g. like Katie said above:
How long were the tests?
Was one singular skill measured or all skills?

If you disagree with what siremi said e.g.:
"
For example, when I had the 25% coat + 25% ring, I had a permanent 50% temp buff (not to be confused with pill buff). Getting an extra temp buff, would increase the value, e.g. getting +50% random boost with make the total boost +100%. The buff was maxed at 300%.
This buff increased the VALUE of the skill, not the LINES."

then provide something to prove that he is wrong or where he went wrong or same applies to him ask him how he did his tests to arrive at different conclusions

Edit:
Point being you can't both be right so have to figure out who or what went wrong
Click to expand...
LWT, Anatomy, and Handgun was used for the test. Weapon was a laser weapon, kept the same across all three tests.

I first checked to make sure that skill gain per skill gain line was the same across all 4 cases. This was confirmed, which means that the only change would be the frequency in the skill gain line.

However, just for completeness, results using actual skill gain amount was included. As the skill gain amounts are small, they are a good proxy for skill gain TT.

Total skill gain lines for sum of each of the three above skills in the baseline case (0% skill gain) was 650.
The skill gain lines for each of the other three cases ranged from 774 to 783.

Increase in frequency on average was 1.201, and was consistent across all three cases. This suggests we are not seeing the increase in skill gain that we would see if the buffs stacked.

As you recall, the three cases with buffs were 1) 25% of profession specific skill gain, 2) 25% +25% of profession specific skill gain, and 3) 25% of profession specific skill gain +20% skill pill. As the results show, all three cases showed the same increase in skill gain ~20% (lower than expected from 25%, but within variability). This result means that the gains are not stacking both between profession based skill gain as well as skill pill.

I ensured the testing was not contaminated by random skill buffs as I removed them by either dying or relogging.

As for skill boosts changing the amount of skill gained per line, I made sure to test that theory, and it was not true. It is a frequency change and not an amount change, for both skill pills as well as profession based skill boost. This was confirmed by checking the lowest skill gain amount (skill gain lines are almost always 1x or 2x this amount). For LWT, it was 0.0026-0.0027 (slight change as I skilled) for all test cases, and a similar behavior for the other two skills. So that's how I tested to make sure that skill amount did not change per line.


I had the skill gain absolute amounts there just for completeness. As you can see, the skill gain amounts also do not show the expected 50% or 45% gain over baseline, and all sat far below the 45%-50% mark as well.
 
Has anyone measured if speed run boost stacks?
While using 20% run speed buff (item) and 20% run speed buff (from coat) I get (40% run speed) capped 25% item limit. I noticed that it makes me as fast as if I had 25% run speed (though I haven't measured it). You are also noticeably faster if you use any (action) speed buff together 25% run speed buff (item) when you go past 50%+.
If this is the case it's quite odd that skills item/item or item/action wouldn't stack and would be a bug, either display bug or otherwise.
Either way should be fixed.
 
Sub-Zero said:
Has anyone measured if speed run boost stacks?
While using 20% run speed buff (item) and 20% run speed buff (from coat) I get (40% run speed) capped 25% item limit. I noticed that it makes me as fast as if I had 25% run speed (though I haven't measured it). You are also noticeably faster if you use any (action) speed buff together 25% run speed buff (item) when you go past 50%+.
If this is the case it's quite odd that skills item/item or item/action wouldn't stack and would be a bug, either display bug or otherwise.
Either way should be fixed.
Click to expand...
Yes, speed run from rings + pill (e.g. a Candy Cane) definitely stacks, you're moving way faster when taking a candy cane...
 
did they fix pills stacking yet?
 
Well what about the tt loss when using so much skill gain buffs? Did someone did the most important test? Is still way better than adding skills by esi.
 
Has anyone tested skill increase from items stacking with random buffs? The tooltip says the total skill gain % increase, but does it even work then?
 
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