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Question: Tier rates bugged?

GeorgeSkywalker

GeorgeSkywalker

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Been wondering if tier rates are bugged.


To test if they are or not did a small experiment. Bought a vivo T1 from TT as it's easy to test with this.


vivot1_tier_rates.jpg



I bought 20 from TT and selected the above one which had the highest rates.


Now to get it from tier 0.0 to 0.1 took 2 heals.

To get it from 0.1 to 0.2 took about ten heals.

To get it from 0.2 to 0.3 still not achieved after over 130heals.


Tier rate for level 1 is listed as 154.


So question why is there such a difference from getting from tier 0.2 - 0.3?

Does getting from tier:
0.0 - 0.1
0.1 - 0.2
0.2 - 0.3
0.3 - 0.4
0.4 - 0.5
0.5 - 0.6
0.6 - 0.7
0.7 - 0.8
0.8 - 0.9

all use the same tier rate i.e. 154? if so why the big discrepancy in getting from 0.2 - 0.3?

Does anyone know how they work?
 
My guess is that the higher the TIR, the higher the chance that it will go 'tink' on any particular use. When it actually does this is (obviously) random.
 
Redfrog said:
My guess is that the higher the TIR, the higher the chance that it will go 'tink' on any particular use. When it actually does this is (obviously) random.
Click to expand...

Sounds like the most plausible explanation.


If it does work like this I wonder what the ratio is? i.e.
154/500
or
154/1000
or
154/10000

We need to know this number to see exactly what chance we have on any given attempt? Any ideas on how we can find this number ?
 
Get clickin' and countin'? :cool:
 
My guess is all these numbers are just more smoke and mirrors to create an illusion of more value simple because of these numbers and in fact nothing has been changed about the items.
 
maybe we need the jimmy b types to figure this one out.

tiers seems kinda random to me with good or bad numbers. idk.
 
GeorgeSkywalker said:
If it does work like this I wonder what the ratio is? i.e.
154/500
or
154/1000
or
154/10000

We need to know this number to see exactly what chance we have on any given attempt? Any ideas on how we can find this number ?
Click to expand...

Highest TIR I've seen is between 3 and 4k, so I assume that the denominator will be at least 4k, and I'd guess at around 8-10k. This is based on how quickly items appear to 'tink' in my experience rather than any experimental testing.

Now, on the basis that my guess is reasonably accurate, the only way I can think of would be to get items with identical, or as close as we can manage, TIRs for Tier 1 and count the number of attempts per tink between 0.0 and 1.0.

Unfortunately 10 data points will be nowhere near enough to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion from, so it would require a few people to test this and record the results. And someone to collate all the data and post the results, possibly as a graph of attempts vs TIRs.

Of course, all this would go out of the window if avatar skills have any bearing on how fast an item tiers up, but I have no reason to suspect that that's the case.
 
Maybe something to take in consideration for tier ratings. If you put an amp on a finder it tends to tier faster. maybe spend tt value per click is also a variable? :confused:
 
my thought

I dunno, but i've had my TT sword at Tier 2.1 for like 4 or more full repairs.
This happens a lot.
I don't expect it to tier fast, but like 4-5 repairs for a 0.1???
crap man:eek:
 
GeorgeSkywalker said:
So question why is there such a difference from getting from tier 0.2 - 0.3?



Does anyone know how they work?
Click to expand...

There is a probability algorithm that can be used to describe Tier increase for non(L) items.

The data set you are looking at is far too small. For any consistency in measurement, you need to measure number of clicks it takes from 0-0.9, for 50-100 faps. 3-7 faps of the same Tier 1 TIR would also produce reliable data for that TIR and Tier
 
GeorgeSkywalker said:
Been wondering if tier rates are bugged.


To test if they are or not did a small experiment. Bought a vivo T1 from TT as it's easy to test with this.


vivot1_tier_rates.jpg



I bought 20 from TT and selected the above one which had the highest rates.


Now to get it from tier 0.0 to 0.1 took 2 heals.

To get it from 0.1 to 0.2 took about ten heals.

To get it from 0.2 to 0.3 still not achieved after over 130heals.


Tier rate for level 1 is listed as 154.


So question why is there such a difference from getting from tier 0.2 - 0.3?

Does getting from tier:
0.0 - 0.1
0.1 - 0.2
0.2 - 0.3
0.3 - 0.4
0.4 - 0.5
0.5 - 0.6
0.6 - 0.7
0.7 - 0.8
0.8 - 0.9

all use the same tier rate i.e. 154? if so why the big discrepancy in getting from 0.2 - 0.3?

Does anyone know how they work?
Click to expand...

I believe I might have an idea how the tier system works.
The tier rate determines how many "tier points" the item can get per use. Each time you use the item there is a random "coin flip" to determine if you get the points or not.

The differences between all the 0.X tiers is a factorial.
to get from 0.1 to 0.2 you need 2x the points you needed to get from 0.0 to 0.1. from 0.2 to 0.3 you need 3x the points. etc...

graph.jpg
 
Haxtor moogle said:
I believe I might have an idea how the tier system works.
The tier rate determines how many "tier points" the item can get per use. Each time you use the item there is a random "coin flip" to determine if you get the points or not.

The differences between all the 0.X tiers is a factorial.
to get from 0.1 to 0.2 you need 2x the points you needed to get from 0.0 to 0.1. from 0.2 to 0.3 you need 3x the points. etc...

graph.jpg
Click to expand...

Erm, no, unless you have very good evidence to back this up, I'd say you are wrong. I have seen items "stuck" at pretty much any 0.x tier by now and also have seen items go from 0.x to 0.y to 0.z (where y=x+1 and z=x+2) in consecutive clicks for again, any x. At least so far "random" is the best explanation I have seen.
 
remontoire said:
Erm, no, unless you have very good evidence to back this up, I'd say you are wrong. I have seen items "stuck" at pretty much any 0.x tier by now and also have seen items go from 0.x to 0.y to 0.z (where y=x+1 and z=x+2) in consecutive clicks for again, any x. At least so far "random" is the best explanation I have seen.
Click to expand...

maybe you cant read :-D
The tier rate determines how many "tier points" the item can get per use. Each time you use the item there is a random "coin flip" to determine if you get the points or not.
Click to expand...

meaning you can not get the points in a long streak
 
Haxtor moogle said:
I believe I might have an idea how the tier system works.
The tier rate determines how many "tier points" the item can get per use. Each time you use the item there is a random "coin flip" to determine if you get the points or not.

The differences between all the 0.X tiers is a factorial.
to get from 0.1 to 0.2 you need 2x the points you needed to get from 0.0 to 0.1. from 0.2 to 0.3 you need 3x the points. etc...
Click to expand...
I can't see that being the way it works. I've had a gun go up 4 points in 4 shots before now, then nothing for a couple, then up another 2 points on the next 2 shots.
That's the improvement I'd expect from a linear function based on probability not a factorial one.

If the TIR determined how many points could be gained and it was a factorial, then the gun couldn't upgrade that rapidly. In a best case scenario it would need one, then two, then six, then twenty four clicks minimum to advance at that rate.
 
Some empirical data I have collected.

FAP-5: with TIR 142 to Tier 1:
0.0 -> 0.1: 2.82 PED (tot: 2.82, avg: 2.82)
0.1 -> 0.2: 0.22 PED (tot: 3.04, avg: 1.52)
0.2 -> 0.3: 6.19 PED (tot: 9.23, avg: 3.08)
0.3 -> 0.4: 5.55 PED (tot: 14.78, avg: 3.70)
0.4 -> 0.5: 3.64 PED (tot: 18.42, avg: 3.68)
0.5 -> 0.6: 1.02 PED (tot: 19.44, avg: 3.24)
0.6 -> 0.7: 0.62 PED (tot: 20.06, avg: 2.87)
0.7 -> 0.8: 3.66 PED (tot: 23.72, avg: 2.96)
0.8 -> 0.9: 7.60 PED (tot: 31.32, avg: 3.48)

However, a tt-pistol with 165 displays a quite different pattern:
Shots until tier
0.0 -> 0.1: 96 (tot: 96, avg: 96)
0.1 -> 0.2: 244 (tot: 340, avg: 170)
0.2 -> 0.3: 160 (tot: 500, avg: 166)
0.3 -> 0.4: 488 (tot: 988, avg: 329)
0.4 -> 0.5: 503 (tot: 1491, avg: 372)
0.5 -> 0.6: 22 (tot: 1513, avg: 302)
0.6 -> 0.7: over 4600 more shots and no increase

This has led me to believe that calling it Tier Increase Rate is at best misleading.
 
I actually just made a program (still in the works) to try and figure this out. I have burned through my first Svempa X1 and here is the data collected. once I finish the program I will release it and see if maybe we can collectively figure something out. :eek:

Tier 1 Rate 28
Tier 2 Rate 111
Tier 3 Rate 87
Tier 4 Rate 110
Tier 5 Rate 91
Tier 6 Rate 32
Tier 7 Rate 47
Tier 8 Rate 19
Tier 9 Rate 17
Tier 10 Rate 113
Gun Name Svempa X1 (L)
Decay per use 0.02894
Ammo per use 0.18

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Tier Rate 28
Tier 0.1
Number of Shots 114
Damage Done 7415.7
Gun Decay 3.29916
Ammo Used 20.52

Tier Rate 28
Tier 0.2
Number of Shots 275
Damage Done 17244.7
Gun Decay 7.9585
Ammo Used 49.5

Tier Rate 28
Tier 0.3
Number of Shots 72
Damage Done 5066.2
Gun Decay 2.08368
Ammo Used 12.96

Tier Rate 28
Tier 0.4
Number of Shots 324
Damage Done 20983.7
Gun Decay 9.37656
Ammo Used 58.32

Tier Rate 28
Tier 0.5
Number of Shots 219
Damage Done 14255.9
Gun Decay 6.33786
Ammo Used 39.42

Tier Rate 28
Tier 0.6
Number of Shots 32
Damage Done 2110.1
Gun Decay 0.92608
Ammo Used 5.76

Tier Rate 28
Tier 0.7
Number of Shots 23
Damage Done 1311.6
Gun Decay 0.66562
Ammo Used 4.14

Tier Rate 28
Tier 0.8
Number of Shots 44
Damage Done 2739.1
Gun Decay 1.27336
Ammo Used 7.92

Tier Rate 28
Tier 0.9
Number of Shots 148
Damage Done 9883.3
Gun Decay 4.341
Ammo Used 27

Tier Rate 28
Tier 1
Number of Shots 702
Damage Done 45258.5
Gun Decay 20.31588
Ammo Used 126.36

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Tier Rate 111
Tier 1.1
Number of Shots 187
Damage Done 12606.9
Gun Decay 5.41178
Ammo Used 33.66

Tier Rate 111
Tier 1.2
Number of Shots 6
Damage Done 392.9
Gun Decay 0.17364
Ammo Used 1.08

Tier Rate 111
Tier 1.3
Number of Shots 88
Damage Done 5540.9
Gun Decay 2.54672
Ammo Used 15.84

Tier Rate 111
Tier 1.4
Number of Shots 97
Damage Done 6567.6
Gun Decay 2.80718
Ammo Used 17.46

Tier Rate 111
Tier 1.5
Number of Shots 472
Damage Done 30574.5
Gun Decay 13.65968
Ammo Used 84.96

Tier Rate 111
Tier 1.6
Number of Shots 593
Damage Done 38382.2
Gun Decay 17.16142
Ammo Used 106.74

Tier Rate 111
Tier 1.7
Number of Shots 190
Damage Done 11777.5
Gun Decay 5.4986
Ammo Used 34.2

Tier Rate 111
Tier 1.8
Number of Shots 163
Damage Done 10117
Gun Decay 4.71722
Ammo Used 29.34

Tier Rate 111
Tier 1.9
Number of Shots 439
Damage Done 28320.4
Gun Decay 12.70466
Ammo Used 79.02

Tier Rate 87
Tier 2
Number of Shots 544
Damage Done 35856.4
Gun Decay 15.74336
Ammo Used 97.92

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Tier Rate 87
Tier 2.1
Number of Shots 503
Damage Done 31615.1
Gun Decay 14.55682
Ammo Used 90.54

Tier Rate 87
Tier 2.2
Number of Shots 398
Damage Done 27382
Gun Decay 11.51812
Ammo Used 78.008

Tier Rate 87
Tier 2.3
Number of Shots 401
Damage Done 27421.2
Gun Decay 11.60494
Ammo Used 72.18

Tier Rate 87
Tier 2.4
Number of Shots 91
Damage Done 5415.9
Gun Decay 2.63354
Ammo Used 16.38

Tier Rate 87
Tier 2.5
Number of Shots 764
Damage Done 51236.2
Gun Decay 22.11016
Ammo Used 137.52

Tier Rate 87
Tier 2.6
Number of Shots 1237
Damage Done 86251.1
Gun Decay 35.79878
Ammo Used 222.66

Tier Rate 87
Tier 2.7
Number of Shots 1129
Damage Done 77250.4
Gun Decay 32.67326
Ammo Used 203.22

Tier Rate 87
Tier 2.8
Number of Shots 55
Damage Done 3942
Gun Decay 1.5917
Ammo Used 9.9

Tier Rate 87
Tier 2.9
Number of Shots 13
Damage Done 895.8
Gun Decay 0.37622
Ammo Used 2.34

Tier Rate 87
Tier 3
Number of Shots 123
Damage Done 8543
Gun Decay 3.55962
Ammo Used 22.14
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Tier Rate 110
Tier 3.1
Number of Shots 26
Damage Done 1622.9
Gun Decay 0.75244
Ammo Used 5.512

Tier Rate 110
Tier 3.2
Number of Shots 58
Damage Done 4400.3
Gun Decay 1.67852
Ammo Used 12.296

Tier Rate 110
Tier 3.3
Number of Shots 40
Damage Done 2781.9
Gun Decay 1.1576
Ammo Used 8.48

Tier Rate 110
Tier 3.4
Number of Shots 2655
Damage Done 197374
Gun Decay 76.8357
Ammo Used 562.86
 
I believe its a denominator of 10000.

I have actually recieved double tier up on 1 use.
 
tamlin said:
0.6 -> 0.7: over 4600 more shots and no increase

This has led me to believe that calling it Tier Increase Rate is at best misleading.
Click to expand...

I have had this happen with an opalo. It took about 250 ped ammo to go from 1.2 to 1.3 and is another reason I lost interest in tiering anything.
 
Need more data?

I got the peds I had to cycle on my tt fist from 2-0-2.9 on each increase, and 0.1-0.9 on my second one which I still working to get to 1.9 on.
And it seems totally random not related at all to the tier numbers :/
 
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