What is the connection between Rocktropia and Jango Airplay?

[Witte]

Err, I don't know about you, but if someone takes my stuff, without me giving the OK... whether the law allows it or not, I'ma be doing something to stop it. I'm pretty sure most people feel the same. Those people that produce/own stuff, that is.

I think this is just futile. Besides, there isn't much you can do, even with the law on your side.

 

[Pirx Danford]

my stuff is my stuff.

Yes but your definition of "my stuff" is outdated.
Thankfully

 

[Chrome]

The reason it is stealing is because the law says so, but I think these laws will change. The current situation is not holdable, I think we do need new methods to reward artists, and to determine how much they "deserve".

You DO realise that the laws are changing and adapting with the times too, right?

Give this a read if you want to educate yourself on the topic a little better:

PIRACY: ONLINE AND ON THE STREET
http://www.riaa.com/physicalpiracy.php?content_selector=piracy_online_the_law


Copyright law is typically designed to protect the fixed expression or manifestation of an idea rather than the fundamental idea itself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

Yes but your definition of "my stuff" is outdated.
Thankfully

That type of mentality is the very type of ignorance creative artists of all genres are fighting against.

 

[Pirx Danford]

creative artists

Make that bitches to the entertainment industry and you're about right.

The real creative ones take the positive effects and use them for their advancement like ND does.

No matter how much IP believers whine on their way down, the downfall is unstoppable

Anyhow I am out of the discussion - any more and it gets political.

 

[Witte]

You DO realise that the laws are changing and adapting with the times too, right?

"but I think these laws will change" (right behind the part you made bold). So yes .

 

[Oleg]

[long post]

I still don't think you've addressed the issue, and clearly don't intend to as you obviously prefer to just label me as some kind of troublemaker, which is a rather convenient way of avoiding responsiblity.

I am more in agreement with ND in this one. Who are we, the non-artists, to decide what artists should or should not do? If an artist doesn't want to use that service then nobody is forcing him. As long as Jango doesn't exercise false and misleading advertisement, nobody is hurt. Besides, we are not talking about absurd amounts of money anyway, so it is hardly exploitation anyway. Ever considered that an artist just enjoys getting the opportunity to let people listen to his music, and isn't even in it for the money?

I'm not a non-artist, I've been involved in music as a performer, producer and writer for over 20 years, so while it may not be of great significance to you, it is to me.

Exploitative practices don't just damage the people that fall for them, they damage music in general, and particularly the development of young artists.

It's true that many musicians aren't particularly interested in the money, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid when someone uses their work, and certainly doesn't mean they should be charged for the privilege.

Can you imagine if the same principles were applied to other areas of life and work? How would you feel if your employer gave you the exciting opportunity to pay them so that you could come into the office and showcase your skills? I'm guessing you'd decline.

Just because exploitation is prevalent, doesn't mean it shouldn't be stopped. In fact more than ever there's an onus on us to prevent this type of thing from happening before it cannot be stopped.

There are many websites where musicians can promote their work for free which would have been much more appropriate partnerships in my opinion.

 

[Witte]

I still don't think you've addressed the issue, and clearly don't intend to as you obviously prefer to just label me as some kind of troublemaker, which is a rather convenient way of avoiding responsiblity.



I'm not a non-artist, I've been involved in music as a performer, producer and writer for over 20 years, so while it may not be of great significance to you, it is to me.

Exploitative practices don't just damage the people that fall for them, they damage music in general, and particularly the development of young artists.

It's true that many musicians aren't particularly interested in the money, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid when someone uses their work, and certainly doesn't mean they should be charged for the privilege.

Can you imagine if the same principles were applied to other areas of life and work? How would you feel if your employer gave you the exciting opportunity to pay them so that you could come into the office and showcase your skills? I'm guessing you'd decline.

Just because exploitation is prevalent, doesn't mean it shouldn't be stopped. In fact more than ever there's an onus on us to prevent this type of thing from happening before it cannot be stopped.

There are many websites where musicians can promote their work for free which would have been much more appropriate partnerships in my opinion.

I am not saying that artists should not be paid, I just think that the old model is not working anymore. I think this moral shift you are afraid of has already happened. Concerning Jango, I think it is for the artist indvidually to decide if they use the service or not, and nobody else. If Jango lies about the service they offer then action should be taken of course. But other than that I have no problems with it.

 

[Chrome]

"but I think these laws will change" (right behind the part you made bold). So yes .

Changing.

And adapting.

I certainly do not anticipate that they (the laws) will go away.

Make that bitches to the entertainment industry and you're about right.

The real creative ones take the positive effects and use them for their advancement like ND does.

No, I didn't mean bitches... I meant creative artists.

As in, people who are inventive in the creation of art, not creative in how they choose to market it.

There are many websites where musicians can promote their work for free which would have been much more appropriate partnerships in my opinion.

One would assume that ND is involved with ROCKtropia first and foremost to make money. Promoting music for free may not fit well into that business strategy.

 

[Witte]

Changing.

And adapting.

I certainly do not anticipate that they (the laws) will go away.

I basically see two options, a censored and policed internet, or allowing people to listen and watch artistic content freely. I very much hope we take the path of the second option. Then the questions remains, how are artists going to be rewarded? I can think of ways but it won't be easy.

 

[Mikass]

It`s payed promotion. Don`t see the problem with it.

There are very good artists that pay some "ped" to get promoted. I see nothing wrong with that. Usually "best selling" artists are crap artists to me, same as best seller books. Usually quality lies in what the masses dislike. If some artist wants to make his message known, I don`t see why he shouldn`t do it. Best artists of their time were often considered failures cos were to far away from the main stream mediocrity.

Same way as promoting a business via google ads. In today`s world it`s all about marketing and creating a brand. It`s more about presentation than content, which is sad but true. Most of the bands and music these days are all about the presentation: image, naked ass, pecs u name it. Music quality in itself is secondary. Plastics ftw.

 

[Oleg]

I am not saying that artists should not be paid, I just think that the old model is not working anymore. I think this moral shift you are afraid of has already happened. Concerning Jango, I think it is for the artist indvidually to decide if they use the service or not, and nobody else. If Jango lies about the service they offer then action should be taken of course. But other than that I have no problems with it.

There are two types of relationship to consider - firstly the relationship between the artist and the consumer, and secondly the relationship between the artist and a business.

I think you're looking more at the consumer side, and in that respect I think you're absolutely correct about the way things have changed and continue to change.

But the other relationship is very different. If a profit-making business is using a musician's work, they should pay the musician. The musician should certainly not be paying them.

It`s payed promotion. Don`t see the problem with it.

There are very good artists that pay some "ped" to get promoted. I see nothing wrong with that. Usually "best selling" artists are crap artists to me, same as best seller books. Usually quality lies in what the masses dislike. If some artist wants to make his message known, I don`t see why he shouldn`t do it. Best artists of their time were often considered failures cos were to far away from the main stream mediocrity.

Same way as promoting a business via google ads. In today`s world it`s all about marketing and creating a brand. It`s more about presentation than content, which is sad but true. Most of the bands and music these days are all about the presentation: image, naked ass, pecs u name it. Music quality in itself is secondary. Plastics ftw.

It's not promotion, it's paying someone else so that they can make a profit by using your work.

I can assure you that most bands and musicians are not about image. They are about music. Perhaps the ones you see on MTV or hear on commercial radio are mostly about image, but they are a tiny minority of the musicians in the world.

I recommend going to see some independent bands in small local venues if you are able to. If you do you'll discover there is much more to life than MTV.

 

[Witte]

But the other relationship is very different. If a profit-making business is using a musician's work, they should pay the musician. The musician should certainly not be paying them.

I don't really understand what you mean with "should". Isn't this just a matter of supply and demand? If there is no demand for your music, nobody is going to pay. If there is demand for it, someone may pay, but if nobody sees a way to profit from it, then you are still not going to get payed. I just don't really see where this moral rule of how it should be comes from.

 

[Chrome]

I don't really understand what you mean with "should". Isn't this just a matter of supply and demand? If there is no demand for your music, nobody is going to pay. If there is demand for it, someone may pay, but if nobody sees a way to profit from it, then you are still not going to get payed. I just don't really see where this moral rule of how it should be comes from.

Ok...

You want to see a commercial movie.

• Pay alot for the privledge seeing it at the theater when it is first released.
  
• Pay a little less to for the privledge own your own copy of it when it comes out on DVD.
  
• Pay even less for the privledge to rent it.
  
• Pay a minimal amount for the privledge to watch it on HBO or another pay channel.
  
• Pay nothing for the privledge to watch it on regular TV, but the advertisers pay for it.

Notice how the people that bring the art to you are always paid?!?



Commercial Music is no different... pay at the live concert, pay for the CD, pay for a download, pay for the sheet music... all for the privledge to experience SOMEONE ELSE'S MUSIC.



Jango profits from other people's music by requiring payment from the artist for the privledge to have the music broadcast.

IMO there are far better ways to get your music noticed.

 

[Witte]

Ok...

You want to see a commercial movie.

• Pay alot for the privledge seeing it at the theater when it is first released.
  
• Pay a little less to for the privledge own your own copy of it when it comes out on DVD.
  
• Pay even less for the privledge to rent it.
  
• Pay a minimal amount for the privledge to watch it on HBO or another pay channel.
  
• Pay nothing for the privledge to watch it on regular TV, but the advertisers pay for it.

Notice how the people that bring the art to you are always paid?!?



Commercial Music is no different... pay at the live concert, pay for the CD, pay for a download, pay for the sheet music... all for the privledge to experience SOMEONE ELSE'S MUSIC.



Jango profits from other people's music by requiring payment from the artist for the privledge to have the music broadcast.

IMO there are far better ways to get your music noticed.

The point made in the OP is that the service is unethical. One agrument is that they do false promises, to this I agree if true. The other argument is because payment "should" be the other way around. But this is no real argument. Something is not right or wrong just because it "should", or just because it has always been like that.

The way I see it, if artists are willing to pay, and are not deceived, there is nothing immoral happening.

 

[remontoire]

Yep, the huge problem with Vanity Publishing, and also these Pay-To-Play schemes, is the bypassing of quality control.

Well, no, the huge problem is that you are paying for a service that you could do just as well (often in fact better) for yourself. If you want a book (CD) out, you can just type up (record) the material for your own cost anyways and then market it yourself. No middleman required and it will sell based on merits.

Vanity publishing and payola is a mix of outright scam (telling people your book/record was promoted to X different companies, all of which simply happen to share the same boiler room address), to that mixed with what amounts to bribery and consumer fraud.

 

[Norbert]

I can agree with Oleg on my personal view of services like Jango, but many people believe it might help them maybe get a break in showbiz. People are willing to pay them to host their music/video's, you can't really fault these companies for taking the cash .

At the end of the day people can choose to pay or not.

 

[Ace Flyster]

This issue reminds of EU quite a lot lol

Either way you pay to promote your music, i cannot see what is wrong with this? It is legal, no laws are being broken by promoting your own music

Same deal with EU, your choice to put money into it.

Same answer to both, talk to as many people as you can before you pay for it, if it works for others in similar position to yourself, then give it a go. Or don't, your choice

Confused why this is wrong

Although one major plus for PE, you can play it for free, with Jango you cannot

Rgds

Ace

 

[Razer]

I didn't read all the posts here and I don't have anything to do with the music business other than that I buy music, but I don't understand why a service like Jango shouldn't be there and I don't understand why people are bitching at it even if they do exploit musicians.

This service (and others) all have a set of rules or contracts or EULA's they work with and if you as an artist don't agree with those rules just DON'T use that service, easy as that. And if you as a artist think a service like that has your best interest in mind you are clearly naive to me.

The music business (and any art form) is a tough business and people are out to make a profit of you. So get informed before you dive into anything and read all the contracts, rules and EULA's and if you don't agree with them find some other way of promoting yourself.

If Jargo has a good deal with ND and has the potential to reach a lot of people and get more people playing this game or attract more money by sponsoring, that sound great to me. At least ND is getting companies to invest money in EU to make this planet a better place to be, something MindArk should have done a long time ago if you ask me.

 

[MarieWoodell]

I was interested in writing a book once and came across some companies that charge you to publish the book.

This sounds very similar to that. In the book industry they are termed ,"Vanity Press"


I know someone who used such a service and they were exploited imho, as they paid a fair bit to get a book published for no gain whatsoever apart from their own vanity...

It's a cheap way to get a book published if you want to get say 100 copies and give them to your friends and don't want the hassle of getting through a publishers slush pile to possibly get rejected anyway and never see your book in print. The only time I've seen self publishing pay off is when an author did her third book that way after publishing her first two the normal way but she had a large enough fan base she made her money back and way more because she got over double the royalties on the books by doing it herself than the publishers would pay her.

So it has its merits in the book world but not initially and not if you aren't very good.

 

[Chrome]

Interesting read about Jango here:

http://passivepromotion.com/what-artists-should-know-about-jango


Apparently NEVERDIE left a comment (scroll toward the bottom) on the review almost a year ago...

 

[Chrome]

A related quote from a comment on another thread discussing last.fm, which is a similar service to Jango:

http://passivepromotion.com/is-a-lastfm-powerplay-campaign-right-for-you

I think online radio from Last.fm, Pandora, Jango, MySpace, Facebook, etc. might be replacing peoples need to buy music, not foster it.

 

[mastermesh]

The only time I've seen self publishing pay off is when an author did her third book that way after publishing her first two the normal way but she had a large enough fan base she made her money back and way more because she got over double the royalties on the books by doing it herself than the publishers would pay her.

So it has its merits in the book world but not initially and not if you aren't very good.

http://www.entropiaoutfitters.com/ uses http://www.cafepress.com/

A very similar place is over at http://www.lulu.com/

and http://www.zazzle.com/


http://www.lulu.com/publish/index.php?cid=en_tab_publish

Publishing success is now a reality with Lulu. Tools and services to make publishing simple and the most options to sell your books.

Some of those places are a bit pricey... for the end user... but you know what, artists can create the stuff free!

If Neverdie and Jango want money, fine... but why make the artists pay up front fees... would be better to do a % of profits deal of some sort.

MA|FPC should really convert to that model too... instead of charging shop owners rent fees every month regardless of whether or not the any sales were done. Basically - like a second tax... then make everywhere rent fee...

That's sort of the way royalties and stuff like that works with real world companies that create films, books, movies, etc. No reason in the world it would not work in the virutal world... and it would not be as scammy...

 

[Razer]

MA|FPC should really convert to that model too... instead of charging shop owners rent fees every month regardless of whether or not the any sales were done. Basically - like a second tax... then make everywhere rent fee...

So in the real world shop don't pay any rent either and just pay a % of the profit, not sure what country you are from, but I'm guessing some shop from Holland will be moving your way soon

 

[mastermesh]

So in the real world shop don't pay any rent either and just pay a % of the profit, not sure what country you are from, but I'm guessing some shop from Holland will be moving your way soon

Big difference between bricks and morter real world store and an in game virtual shop that's just pixels on a screen and info in a database... However, yes, in the real world, on the internet, there's tons of artists selling stock photo, 3d models, ebooks, mp3s, and all other sorts of "digital information" in a royalties type of payment system. Why not move that sort of payment plan in to the virtual world where every asset is "digital information" or in to something like Jango where it's all sound files being moved around on a server?

 

[Bones]

As far as we are concerned EU is like the iPad or windows and rocktropia is just an app that utilizes this great platform andnoffers something to a target demographic, I do wish sincerely thatnthe existing user base will enjoy it, but I'm tryingnto appeal to a different market and expand the overall user base...

- ND

I briefly spoke with you on my initial visit and was left with an impression of your urging me to reccommend for my friends to come and visit , especially new players to the EU.

What I have seen so far on your planet leads me to believe that it will undoubtedly succeed.

I have only spent one day there so far and will probably not return for some time , but as new material emerges I am sure I will be drawn back.

As far as new material , I can only hope the next round of artists drawn to finance there own castles or condo's whatever the case , will choose a more mature content.

By mature content I am not referring to naked bimbo's or or even a disneyland theme park. I would prefer to see a more balanced content that speaks to an adult audience.

I can live with the Vampires , weapons of Orgasmic destruction , half naked android hookers , And I am sure your vision is greater than the initial offering.

I am just asking that a more rounded musical atmosphere be considered to offset the rough edges.

Just think .. A Pink Floyd flying pig with an accompanying lightshow : )

As far as the OP's opinions on Jango , I can see his overall concern.

I can also see your willingness to back their service with your own reputation and those using it will have to decide if it is well placed or not , knowone is making anyone use the service.


Bones

 

[MarieWoodell]

http://www.entropiaoutfitters.com/ uses http://www.cafepress.com/

A very similar place is over at http://www.lulu.com/

and http://www.zazzle.com/


http://www.lulu.com/publish/index.php?cid=en_tab_publish

In the case of entropiaoutfitters I'd say they have it a bit easier as they have a captive market in game already created for them. I can imagine it would be a similar thing if I decided to make the choose your own adventure thread i've been doing into a book. I've already got an audience. Albiet a much smaller one but I could probably do a poll and ask how many would be interested in a proper paper copy etc.

I was thinking more about the people that have no audience they can tap into and are new to whatever their 'art' is. Paying someone to promote you is a very risky business that can lead to the artist being manipulated and losing more money than they gain.

I don't entirely have that much sympathy over all of them though. Some of the blame I think lies on people being willing to pay for things that if they were patient or good enough they wouldn't actually have to pay for. I have the choice with the book I've almost finished. I could pay a publishing house to do it for me and have a copy in my hands within the month or I could send it to the normal publishers and wait longer but possibly gain a book publishing deal that may well extend to one or two more books.

 

[Hurrikane]

I think the main issue here is musicians wishing there wasn't a music "industry" at all....

In the good old days (whenever they were), a band or artist would write songs, practice, play gigs, play more, play even more, play yet more after that, and so on, living out of the back of a van and slowly building an increasingly loyal fan-base if their music was sufficiently enticing for folk to get into it and buy. This is still the case with some acts, who got where they were with little or no radio play (Iron Maiden for example), just on the shared love of what they produce and their own (ok, and Rod Smallwood's) ideas of how to get the music to a bigger audience.
In short, the route to the top was long and hard, and the cream rose to prominence. (Avoided quoting "It's a long way to the top if you wanna rock n' roll" lol)


Like everything else though, modern methods of breaking an act are different. Modern culture shuns patience and dedication as "ignorance of viable shortcuts". Talent Shows on TV instantly attach a huge media machine to fledgling performers, making them household names on the strength of a karaoke cover version, or when people haven't even heard their music at all (I know who Jedward are for example). Bands are marketed solely on looks, and studios add so much during production that basically any act can be made into profit if the powers that be decide so.
The result is lots more acts that shine for mere moments to be replaced by the next; part of the disposable culture we all are supposed to embrace. Another result is chart-topping acts unable to fill a medium venue, as few entertain the notion that they might actually be worth seeing live. If Janis Joplin was alive today, she'd struggle to get a record deal; not pretty enough. What encouragement is there for bands to work at gaining a following when others play live for the first time after getting a 3-album deal?

It is sad, to an unapologetic dinosaur like myself, but it is how things are. I suppose more are joining them than trying to beat them these days. Rock and er, Roll.


Hurrikane

 

[Oleg]

I don't really understand what you mean with "should". Isn't this just a matter of supply and demand? If there is no demand for your music, nobody is going to pay. If there is demand for it, someone may pay, but if nobody sees a way to profit from it, then you are still not going to get payed. I just don't really see where this moral rule of how it should be comes from.

As I said earlier there are many places where musicians can place their music without paying. Some of these sites make a profit, but crucially they do not make it from the musicians, they make it from advertising, subscriptions and other external revenue streams.

The musicians create the content that helps them to bring in the profit from elsewhere. Ideally the musicians share in that revenue, but that's not always the case because as you say it's an issue of supply and demand, and only a certain number of people are going to make any money from music. But the key is that they do not have to pay. That to me is an ethical business model.

The point made in the OP is that the service is unethical. One agrument is that they do false promises, to this I agree if true. The other argument is because payment "should" be the other way around. But this is no real argument. Something is not right or wrong just because it "should", or just because it has always been like that.

The way I see it, if artists are willing to pay, and are not deceived, there is nothing immoral happening.

I feel the way they use the word "fans" is deceptive for starters. Someone who hears your song because they chose to listen to something else is not a fan. Someone who clicks a link put in front of them is not a fan. If the plays are eventually converted into CD sales, ticket sales etc, perhaps we can call them fans, but the reality with sites like this is that that does not happen in more than a miniscule percentage of cases.

I'm dubious about their claims to reach 7 million unique listeners monthly too. I find it hard to believe that more than 1 in every 1000 people on the planet is listening to Jango, especially given that I'd never heard of it until last week despite being involved in the industry.

Here's a quote from their FAQ: "After you make your song submission and payment, your music will be go through an editorial review by the Jango Music Team to verify copyright, quality and similarity to the artists you've requested airplay next to."

I'd be interested to know how many people have had their payments declined on grounds of quality. My guess would be none.

 

[Tosi]

As I said earlier there are many places where musicians can place their music without paying. Some of these sites make a profit, but crucially they do not make it from the musicians, they make it from advertising, subscriptions and other external revenue streams.

The musicians create the content that helps them to bring in the profit from elsewhere. Ideally the musicians share in that revenue, but that's not always the case because as you say it's an issue of supply and demand, and only a certain number of people are going to make any money from music. But the key is that they do not have to pay. That to me is an ethical business model.



I feel the way they use the word "fans" is deceptive for starters. Someone who hears your song because they chose to listen to something else is not a fan. Someone who clicks a link put in front of them is not a fan. If the plays are eventually converted into CD sales, ticket sales etc, perhaps we can call them fans, but the reality with sites like this is that that does not happen in more than a miniscule percentage of cases.

I'm dubious about their claims to reach 7 million unique listeners monthly too. I find it hard to believe that more than 1 in every 1000 people on the planet is listening to Jango, especially given that I'd never heard of it until last week despite being involved in the industry.

Here's a quote from their FAQ: "After you make your song submission and payment, your music will be go through an editorial review by the Jango Music Team to verify copyright, quality and similarity to the artists you've requested airplay next to."

I'd be interested to know how many people have had their payments declined on grounds of quality. My guess would be none.

First of all, awesome post.
Thank you for that.

Now, from a personal viewpoint it looks like a failed wannabe-rockstar wants to lure other wannabe-rockstars to get their fans to load a huge download to hangout in ...what?

Musical artist news that doesn't involve Rock Band or Guitar Hero? Bizarre! Almost as bizarre as the news itself. Motörhead frontman Lemmy is establishing a base of operations and a virtual rock arena in the virtual world of Entropia Universe. Launching alongside the CryENGINE 2 powered Entropia Universe update, Lemmy’s Castle is more than just a series of Lemmy-themed rooms. It's your gateway into Lemmy's private army! The castle will be defended by guardians that drop rare Motörhead armor parts, a full set of which will allow you access to the castle's inner sanctum, where you will be eligible to join Lemmy's Army. Membership allows players to chat with Lemmy on the army's private channel and compete in quests that will ear you special Motörhead prizes, both virtual and real.

Thanks to Nirfu for original quote.