Who invented "ECO" (DMP/Pec)?

[bettlejus]

I'm feeling philosophical today, so allow me to go over the hedge with this one

Who invented ECO?

It is a stat on weapons/amps defined by MA? well the answer here is NO

I believe, by analyzing human nature, that "ECO" is something invented by players in order to have a guideline in choosing the weapon of choice

But is this "ECO" so important?

Sure, it let's you kill another 1000 HP points every 2K peds cycled (average, comparing E-amp 14 to A104), but how about the loot?

Everything in EU comes in waves, so is the loot, and the amplitude of the wave is determined by your cost per shoot split in ammo decay and amp decay, this is what I think

I really doubt that ECO plays such a great role over-time

Sure, if you only got 1K peds, go ECO, because the amplitude of the loot-wave will be smaller and you will get back soon...at least in most cases


So, please go crazy on this thread and spit it out!

 

[Strash]

i believe MA spoke about the ECO being important..... actually...

 

[bettlejus]

They did, in the developers note, but what does important actually means?

that you can kill 1K HP more points over 2K peds? How about globals? You get more globals being un-eco, more changes to loot items

And from what I see return are the same, only amplitude changes, so it's all about the bankroll again

 

[Alice]

In 2004 there was a pretty smart EU player.

She looked at the weapons, figured out that it is propably better to dealing X damage with less pec spent is likely better than with more.
ie. 10 damage costing 10 pec is worse than 10 damage costing 5 pec.
She also invented decay testing, as MA was never too good at showing important statistics in the weapon menu, so she had to figure out how measure the decay actually.

That player was called Emily Christine Onor, nickname ECO.

But seriously, i guess the concept of eco wasnt discovered by a single individual as such.
This game is about real money and thus you will very very likely get a couple of business related key figures.
Like ROI but also a concept known as eco pretty much, which is a pretty simple one, actually pretty much everyone uses it when they go shopping for example.
"hey, if i buy 6 drinks in market a for 4$ im better of at market b where they cost 5$".

in the end it was just a matter of time until someone set the damage relative to the cost to infict it.
and bang, eco was born.

if eco however is of any use, you can actually get different opinions, some swear by their old minisweeper and they say get better loot, others say it is horrible
imo eco is important, at least in the long run

 

[Bemo]

I have used both old lvl 100 max weapons and maxed sib weapons. I bleed at the same rate no matter what I use. To me it seems it only changes how big the loot swings (waves) are. Again thats just my opinion from the info I gather with my personal hunts.


-Bemo-

 

[bettlejus]

In 2004 there was a pretty smart EU player.

That player was called Emily Christine Onor, nickname ECO.

Pretty cool, never knew this

@Bemo, that is the case for me also in much

 

[Artrat]

I believe average loot is directly related to the amount of damage done to the mob. So, imo eco matters a great deal. I definitely bleed much faster at lower eco. However, at about 2.8 and higher, I think the amount of ped cycled required to see any real difference is very large.

Here is my working hypothesis:

When you kill a mob, MA keeps a sort of internal scoreboard for you, awarding points in the following way:

+ 1 point for each point of damage, up to the mobs hp max.
+ 0.? point for each point of damage over the mobs hp max (regen).
+ 0.? point for each point of overkill damage.
+ 0.? point for each point of damage absorbed by armour.
+ 0.? point for each point of health healed.

This will then give you a "score" for killing the mob. This score is directly related to loot, subject to multipliers.

So, let's say a score of 100 is equal 1 ped. The looting algorithm then rolls it's 1 million-sided die:

0 - 50k -> No loot (Why does God hate me?)
50k - 100k -> Fragments (screw it, i'd rather have had a no-loot)
100k - 500k -> 1-30 pec (Boo, this mob sucks)
500k - 800k -> 30-60 pec (Bah, could be worse)
800k - 900k -> 60-100 pec (OMG, I might even break even this run)
900k - 970k -> 1 - 50 ped (Sweet, a mini!)
970k - 990k -> 50 - 1k ped (Oooh, pretty lights!)
990k - 999k -> 1k - 5k ped (Ubaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!!!!!!!)
999k - 999999 -> 5k - 100k (Wheee, I'm gonna buy so much stuff!)
1M -> 100k+ (OMFG! I am a hunting god! Star must bow before me! I'm gonna buy some uber's skills and TT them for fun!)

It then runs a seperate check to see whether you get item(s) and what is available to be looted from that particular lootpool.

The exact numbers and things obviously I have made up, and I'm not entirely conviced that their looting algorith is a simple RNG (I have a theory involving mutliple environmental factors and a modulo), but overall, I think this is probably roughly how it works.

Plus, I am always right, always.

Obey my dog.

 

[bettlejus]

Plus, I am always right, always.

Obey my dog.

This!

 

[Mordrell]

Personally standing on 96.93% tt return after 116k cycle now...

I use Tier 3 Raw-505+a104 (with dmg enhancers) = 2,8 dpp
This is mostly paired with either a P46+a104 (2.899 dpp) or Asi-37+beast (2.901 dpp) ... mu prob not part of calc

Most would say using especially the 505 is very "uneco" yet I get good results with it, what you hunt (mu go for) is much more important then how much more eco your setup is.

 

[FallenAngel]

They did, in the developers note, but what does important actually means?

that you can kill 1K HP more points over 2K peds? How about globals? You get more globals being un-eco, more changes to loot items

And from what I see return are the same, only amplitude changes, so it's all about the bankroll again

the way i see it that 1K HP lets you loot 1 more mob, every time you loot a mob you have a chance of hitting something nice. nobody would leave 1 mob unlooted on purpose every 2K peds would they, it would obviously serve no purpose?

 

[Dreicc]

I'm feeling philosophical today, so allow me to go over the hedge with this one

Who invented ECO?

It is a stat on weapons/amps defined by MA? well the answer here is NO

I believe, by analyzing human nature, that "ECO" is something invented by players in order to have a guideline in choosing the weapon of choice

But is this "ECO" so important?

Sure, it let's you kill another 1000 HP points every 2K peds cycled (average, comparing E-amp 14 to A104), but how about the loot?

Everything in EU comes in waves, so is the loot, and the amplitude of the wave is determined by your cost per shoot split in ammo decay and amp decay, this is what I think

I really doubt that ECO plays such a great role over-time

Sure, if you only got 1K peds, go ECO, because the amplitude of the loot-wave will be smaller and you will get back soon...at least in most cases


So, please go crazy on this thread and spit it out!

First player who really see the importance of the ECO is Headwar who make at this time great chart of weapon (arround 2002 i think)

 

[Angel]

In 2004 there was a pretty smart EU player.

She looked at the weapons, figured out that it is propably better to dealing X damage with less pec spent is likely better than with more.
ie. 10 damage costing 10 pec is worse than 10 damage costing 5 pec.
She also invented decay testing, as MA was never too good at showing important statistics in the weapon menu, so she had to figure out how measure the decay actually.

That player was called Emily Christine Onor, nickname ECO.

But seriously, i guess the concept of eco wasnt discovered by a single individual as such.
This game is about real money and thus you will very very likely get a couple of business related key figures.
Like ROI but also a concept known as eco pretty much, which is a pretty simple one, actually pretty much everyone uses it when they go shopping for example.
"hey, if i buy 6 drinks in market a for 4$ im better of at market b where they cost 5$".

in the end it was just a matter of time until someone set the damage relative to the cost to infict it.
and bang, eco was born.

if eco however is of any use, you can actually get different opinions, some swear by their old minisweeper and they say get better loot, others say it is horrible
imo eco is important, at least in the long run

ECO was not invent in 2004 lol. People already used the word ECO during pre-GOLD. Everyone wanted an IMK2 back then and it was actually worth more than MM.

ECO does matter but DPS also matters. That is why MM started to beat IMK2 in the market prices shortly after GOLD. MM although less ECO but deals greater DMG over time. Somewhere, sometime after GOLD, MM started to be recognized.

And there is more to success in hunting than being ECO. Even a Foeripper can beat any ECO weapon in return just please don't mention Swine Deluxe or any of the stupid old Melee Enblades, Unique Axe and Dagger. In fact I have profited greater using Foeripper than when I used IMK2. I hunted big things like Leviathans/Araneatrox and was able to cycle PEDs faster.

I believe ECO is for people who does not want to risk and want a stable and more reliable return. DPS on the other hand require more risk and knowledge to use, resulting greater rewards.

 

[RickEngland]

I believe average loot is directly related to the amount of damage done to the mob. So, imo eco matters a great deal. I definitely bleed much faster at lower eco. However, at about 2.8 and higher, I think the amount of ped cycled required to see any real difference is very large.

Here is my working hypothesis:

When you kill a mob, MA keeps a sort of internal scoreboard for you, awarding points in the following way:

+ 1 point for each point of damage, up to the mobs hp max.
+ 0.? point for each point of damage over the mobs hp max (regen).
+ 0.? point for each point of overkill damage.
+ 0.? point for each point of damage absorbed by armour.
+ 0.? point for each point of health healed.

This will then give you a "score" for killing the mob. This score is directly related to loot, subject to multipliers.

Plus, I am always right, always.

Obey my dog.

I agree with the first part of your thread, I also believe its based on 'damage', and you are scored and paid some average loot from that damage on a temporary basis.

For the second calc I think it's based on time rather than a roll the dice approach. So the system will stack your damage earned and then at some point pay it back in an uber once you hit a damage target. This is why bankroll is so important, because it hopes you run out of cash and depo before the timer runs in your favour.

I think for every shot you take, it looks at your HA of the weapon used, decides what it will inflict as instant damage, and then stacks the difference for the later uber. The more eco you are the more the instant and long term loot will add up nicely.

As an added twist, skills will determine how long or short the gaps are between good loots.

Rick

 

[RickEngland]

I believe ECO is for people who does not want to risk and want a stable and more reliable return. DPS on the other hand require more risk and knowledge to use, resulting greater rewards.

So get the biggest gun that delivers the most damage that you are 10/10 HA on, and blast away at the biggest mobs you can handle.

I like that style of hunting, also no calcs required.

Thanks

Rick

 

[Skam]

Community effort, not a single person. Considering we're playing with real money here it was of course logical to consider the economy of a weapon and measure them up against each other.

"Back in the day" the community was somewhat more involved in figuring out the "hidden" parts of weapons and the corrolation of items and skills and so on.
There was a lot more testing, community sites dedicated to charts and information. It was, in my opinion, quite healthy for the community to be allowed to do figure things out as it gave us a purpose to come together, albeit it probably somewhat alienated casuals.

Nowadays dmg/pec is a pretty accepted term and easily calculated from just looking at the information coming with the gun.

 

[Angel]

Community effort, not a single person. Considering we're playing with real money here it was of course logical to consider the economy of a weapon and measure them up against each other.

"Back in the day" the community was somewhat more involved in figuring out the "hidden" parts of weapons and the corrolation of items and skills and so on.
There was a lot more testing, community sites dedicated to charts and information. It was, in my opinion, quite healthy for the community to be allowed to do figure things out as it gave us a purpose to come together, albeit it probably somewhat alienated casuals.

Nowadays dmg/pec is a pretty accepted term and easily calculated from just looking at the information coming with the gun.

Yep back in the days, the weapons didn't even have attack speed and range written in them, let alone decay. They did add the most informative decay indicator later on: excellent, very good, good, average, below average, fragile etc... *sarcasm*

 

[Aio]

ECO was not invent in 2004 lol. People already used the word ECO during pre-GOLD. Everyone wanted an IMK2 back then and it was actually worth more than MM.

ECO does matter but DPS also matters. That is why MM started to beat IMK2 in the market prices shortly after GOLD. MM although less ECO but deals greater DMG over time. Somewhere, sometime after GOLD, MM started to be recognized.

And there is more to success in hunting than being ECO. Even a Foeripper can beat any ECO weapon in return just please don't mention Swine Deluxe or any of the stupid old Melee Enblades, Unique Axe and Dagger. In fact I have profited greater using Foeripper than when I used IMK2. I hunted big things like Leviathans/Araneatrox and was able to cycle PEDs faster.

I believe ECO is for people who does not want to risk and want a stable and more reliable return. DPS on the other hand require more risk and knowledge to use, resulting greater rewards.

I think you missed Alice's sarcasm but for the rest of it, that's completely true.

It also helps that at maxed stats, MM is also pretty good eco in addition to its dps. Foe, naaat so much, but as you say, it has far higher dps than imk2 and even MM, so on regen mobs it will outpay.

For OP - dmg/pec is just a relevant stat on a gun - of course there are other factors such as loot randomness and dps, but honestly, it's not even a theory, it's a fact that your dmg/pec matters. If you believe you'll get the same return with imk2 as with swine dlx, be my guest to try it

 

[Doer]

Yep back in the days, the weapons didn't even have attack speed and range written in them, let alone decay. They did add the most informative decay indicator later on: excellent, very good, good, average, below average, fragile etc... *sarcasm*

Yes, i think it's time they just post the exact decay in item stats. We all know how to calculate it these days and the usefulness of the deliberate ambiguity is past, much like it was for professions about the time they started providing the profession levels panel. It's no longer a mystery to figure out, it's just a headache and a loophole for deliberate misinformation by market manipulators.

A more recent example is displaying decreased armor protection in a partially decayed state.

OP: I remember coming to an individual recognizance of eco over time as i first started learning about hunting in EU. At the time (~CND/2005) there was still a lot of misinformation around dating to the pre-opalo era, and the importance of SIB was still not widely recognized for its impact on eco.

A lot of people profited for a very long time using our overamped M2100s and Opalos (and that amp nerf was obviously an important and necessary thing), while those who didn't recognize this particular aspect of eco paid for it. There are fortunately always plenty of people around who disregard eco and that makes things better for those who do.

 

[Arch]

0 - 50k -> No loot (Why does God hate me?)
50k - 100k -> Fragments (screw it, i'd rather have had a no-loot)
100k - 500k -> 1-30 pec (Boo, this mob sucks)
500k - 800k -> 30-60 pec (Bah, could be worse)
800k - 900k -> 60-100 pec (OMG, I might even break even this run)
900k - 970k -> 1 - 50 ped (Sweet, a mini!)
970k - 990k -> 50 - 1k ped (Oooh, pretty lights!)
990k - 999k -> 1k - 5k ped (Ubaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!!!!!!!)
999k - 999999 -> 5k - 100k (Wheee, I'm gonna buy so much stuff!)
1M -> 100k+ (OMFG! I am a hunting god! Star must bow before me! I'm gonna buy some uber's skills and TT them for fun!)

LMFAO

 

[Sub-Zero]

First it was our god MA, but they never told us a thing about it's importance until recently but we homo-sapiens figured out its importance long long ago in a far away galaxy - Planet Calypso. There's two main types of hunting play-styles in EU. Those that want to gamble belong to the non eco part = Using non maxed non sib weapons (uneco amps etc) - High risk - high rewards.
Those that play the only way it's meant to be played . The eco-way - Low risk - High rewards (in the long run). Those people are the smart padawans of EU. And they will outlive the gamblers, since their ped card will last longer. So which one are ya folks? Gamblers or eco-ers? I support both such types of play-styles, because everyone has the free will in EU and real life to do/play in however they see fit.
Ps: I chose the eco-way since 2006.

 

[Angel]

I think you missed Alice's sarcasm but for the rest of it, that's completely true.

It also helps that at maxed stats, MM is also pretty good eco in addition to its dps. Foe, naaat so much, but as you say, it has far higher dps than imk2 and even MM, so on regen mobs it will outpay.

For OP - dmg/pec is just a relevant stat on a gun - of course there are other factors such as loot randomness and dps, but honestly, it's not even a theory, it's a fact that your dmg/pec matters. If you believe you'll get the same return with imk2 as with swine dlx, be my guest to try it

You missed read my comment. I did not say using Swine Deluxe would get the same return as an IMK2, I said Foeripper can and even better. I also specifically said not to mention any stupid weapons like Swine Deluxe in comparison to IMK2. Never did I mention ECO is not important but there ARE other factors more important and that HEAVILY relies on the actual player's decisions. This resulting to the question: Why are the other players more lucky than me? I now use AIMK2 by the way, so that is both ECO/DPS and the range oOooOoooOoo. I love the 160 range. I stopped using Foeripper since I got it.

 

[Doer]

I now use AIMK2 by the way

 

[Aio]

You missed read my comment. I did not say using Swine Deluxe would get the same return as an IMK2, I said Foeripper can and even better. I also specifically said not to mention any stupid weapons like Swine Deluxe in comparison to IMK2. Never did I mention ECO is not important but there ARE other factors more important and that HEAVILY relies on the actual player's decisions. This resulting to the question: Why are the other players more lucky than me? I now use AIMK2 by the way, so that is both ECO/DPS and the range oOooOoooOoo. I love the 160 range. I stopped using Foeripper since I got it.

And you misread mine The final paragraph was for OP - the original poster. I do completely agree with you. Especially on the range, cy@~ armour decay.

 

[Angel]

And you misread mine The final paragraph was for OP - the original poster. I do completely agree with you. Especially on the range, cy@~ armour decay.

My mistake I guess, I did not know what OP meant. Overpowered comes to mind when I see OP.

 

[RobBuona]

My mistake I guess, I did not know what OP meant. Overpowered comes to mind when I see OP.

"Original poster," AKA thread starter, AKA post #1 in the thread.