ZU-25 or MF-102, Whats the difference?

[Archaegeo]

Other than at my current skill level the MF-102 has a better initial depth for me, I see lots of folks going with the ZU-25(L) instead of the 102 as their upgrade from the TT finder, why?

Thanks for any answers

 

[Anna Ufo]

Always go for the L ones. You get better returns and more skills.

 

[Archaegeo]

Really?

The MF-102 has a depth of 224.9/323.4 for me and is SiB

The ZU-25 says oh, 248.4/303, hmm, must be because i finally bumped 1.0 in Survey, was 73 when 102 was 203

So its deeper, but cant be repaired, isnt it a drawback to have to keep buying new ones?

(Still trying to figure out the economics of mining)

 

[Leroy Brown]

Chances are you'll max it and move on to the next long before it breaks, so it being (L) shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Trina Xenophage]

Just remember.... SIB only means "Suckered into buying"

 

[Tracer-Bullet]

Always go for the L ones. You get better returns and more skills.

ok just to clarify, this is not true! If anything you are more likely to decrease your profit mathmatically has you have to pay the TT+MU% for the (L) finders meaning if you don't find any ores with a good % then your screwed. Where as with the Unl equipment you only pay the TT decay.

~Tracer

 

[jenny ferr]

Just remember.... SIB only means "Suckered into buying"

 

[heancaze]

so your forgeting the difference in decay and that UL items also has markup if you buying it ... now returns depend a bit more on where and when you use it then what you use, I think, not saying it isen't dependent on item too just location and time are larger factors.

 

[Anna Ufo]

ok just to clarify, this is not true! If anything you are more likely to decrease your profit mathmatically has you have to pay the TT+MU% for the (L) finders meaning if you don't find any ores with a good % then your screwed. Where as with the Unl equipment you only pay the TT decay.

~Tracer

Well. I can buy mf 102 and get 50% returns without paying markup.
Or. I can buy the Ju25 and get 80% returns with paying markup of 105%. (105%?+ OMG!!! THATS A LOT!!!)

Lets see.
MF-102 has decay of 1.15PEC. That means cost of 51.15pec cost per drop.
Ju25 has decay of 0.93PEC. With markup that means cost of 50.98pec cost per drop.
OOPS! JU25 IS CHEAPER TO USE? THE L ONE?

Yes.

E: Apparently Tracer has never tried mining or he just likes to talk BS

 

[Tracer-Bullet]

Well. I can buy mf 102 and get 50% returns without paying markup.
Or. I can buy the Ju25 and get 80% returns with paying markup of 105%. (105%?+ OMG!!! THATS A LOT!!!)

Lets see.
MF-102 has decay of 1.15PEC. That means cost of 51.15pec cost per drop.
Ju25 has decay of 0.93PEC. With markup that means cost of 50.98pec cost per drop.
OOPS! JU25 IS CHEAPER TO USE? THE L ONE?

Yes.

E: Apparently Tracer has never tried mining or he just likes to talk BS

What the hell Anna. You -Rep'd me because I corrected you. That's just lame, and even lamer considering that you are indeed incorrect stating that (L) equipment enables you to get a greater return. (L) or Unl, neither are factors in what return you will get.

I see that the main point in your argument is that you are comparing the MF-102 & the Ju25 (L). In the case of these two finders it may be cheaper to USE them but that does not mean that you will get back a greater amount of resources whilst mining, just that your expenses are lower.

And besides like I said you're only comparing two finders yet applying your statement of "You get better returns" to every finder. Whilst the Ju25 may have a MU of 105% the TIK500 for example has a MU that is significantly higher.

I hope you realise the mistake in your logic & in future do not post incorrect statements followed by incomplete comparisons.

E: I won't -Rep you back because I'm not that pathetic.

~Tracer

 

[Kerham]

Well. I can buy mf 102 and get 50% returns without paying markup.
Or. I can buy the Ju25 and get 80% returns with paying markup of 105%. (105%?+ OMG!!! THATS A LOT!!!)

Eh? L gives better return? Can you gimme some paper with that, signed and all that?

 

[Coastis]

What the hell Anna. You -Rep'd me because I corrected you. That's just lame, and even lamer considering that you are indeed incorrect stating that (L) equipment enables you to get a greater return. (L) or Unl, neither are factors in what return you will get.

I see that the main point in your argument is that you are comparing the MF-102 & the Ju25 (L). In the case of these two finders it may be cheaper to USE them but that does not mean that you will get back a greater amount of resources whilst mining, just that your expenses are lower.

And besides like I said you're only comparing two finders yet applying your statement of "You get better returns" to every finder. Whilst the Ju25 may have a MU of 105% the TIK500 for example has a MU that is significantly higher.

I hope you realise the mistake in your logic & in future do not post incorrect statements followed by incomplete comparisons.

E: I won't -Rep you back because I'm not that pathetic.

~Tracer

+rep for you

In my experience, there is no link whatsoever between L finders and better returns. Indeed if you move upto a L finder too early before its maxed, just to take advantage of SIB, then you're gimping yourself in terms of possible returns.

 

[uulwyn]

Always go for the L ones. You get better returns and more skills.

(I just shake my head at this comment)

This is so not true, and really poor advice, and also bad play -reping someone for correcting you.

Uulwyn

 

[chevrons]

It's not possible to compare the returns of different finders.

Mining results are far too random to make any judgement. You would have to drop 1000's of bombs, and these would necessarily be at different times, places, and skill levels.

I've kept figures all the way from level 5 to level 30, and there is no discernable relationship between return and L or non-L finder, or skill level (so far).

So just keep increasing your depth; you may not increase your return, but you will find different Ores, and get less bored.

I haven't seen any study as to whether non-L or L finders give better skill gains per Ped decay.

But I can prove that if you want to gain skill faster, use an amp.

 

[Leroy Brown]

I somehow doubt that the Ju25 inherently gives better returns. However, until after the Ju25 is maxed, it will have a better depth than the MF-102 (note that the numbers calculated on entropedia say the opposite, but are incorrect).

So, for enmatters beyond a certain depth, the range of the Ju25 will have more overlap with the range at which the matter can be found, and therefore you are more likely to find it with the Ju25 if it is there. Hence, with some enmatters, the Ju25 gives better returns because of its depth.

This is in addition to the fact that it has very slightly less decay, but that effect is almost negligible. It is about 0.17 pec difference, or about 1/300th the cost of dropping the probe. Even less if you're using amps.

 

[Gluepot]

I see people arguing about depth and decay....
I am biased because I only mine in PvP4, but as far as I see it screw depth and screw decays... Blood moss is found with a TT finder just as often as with an MF-212, so who cares? Grab yourself ANY finder and start dropping bombs in PvP4, learn how to escape the PKers, and earn yourself some profit.

Ok from my experience, (L) finders decay less and have greater depth, but also have markup. If you're mining outside of PvP4, you want all the depth you can get so you can find the rare ores, but make sure you know where to mine so you're not wasting high markup deep finders in lyst pools.

Disclaimer: I am not a miner and most of my ingame knowledge is based on hunting rather than mining.

 

[Anna Ufo]

What the hell Anna. You -Rep'd me because I corrected you. That's just lame, and even lamer considering that you are indeed incorrect stating that (L) equipment enables you to get a greater return. (L) or Unl, neither are factors in what return you will get.

I see that the main point in your argument is that you are comparing the MF-102 & the Ju25 (L). In the case of these two finders it may be cheaper to USE them but that does not mean that you will get back a greater amount of resources whilst mining, just that your expenses are lower.

And besides like I said you're only comparing two finders yet applying your statement of "You get better returns" to every finder. Whilst the Ju25 may have a MU of 105% the TIK500 for example has a MU that is significantly higher.


~Tracer

I didnt -rep you for correcting me. I gave you -rep for giving out wrong information. And yes, by my experience L finders do give better returns, and yes, TIK500 has a markup of 200%, but on the other hand, what do you compare it against? Best UL finder has depth of 522m, when tik500 has 776.
My point is, if you compare UL finder and its L counterpart, L is better.

 

[Xzion]

Always go for the L ones. You get better returns and more skills.

Isnt that a lie tho?
Better loot from L seems to say a litle bit to much to claim.
But better skills when you got a the SIB period is indeed correct

 

[Anna Ufo]

Isnt that a lie tho?
Better loot from L seems to say a litle bit to much to claim.
But better skills when you got a the SIB period is indeed correct

If you have L finder and you know how to use it, you get better results then with UL finder

 

[Xzion]

If you have L finder and you know how to use it, you get better results then with UL finder

may i ask if you can show me something that proves that theory of yours, or is it just you think is right?, if you have something which proves this i will be ready to admit im wrong.
But until then i will claim its just a personal theory and i will stick to my own theory which is that the loot does not vary depending on what finder you use.

(We are talking about the size of the claims, and not the ammounts of claims found, right?)

 

[Anna Ufo]

(We are talking about the size of the claims, and not the ammounts of claims found, right?)

We are talking about average returns.

 

[Kosh]

We are talking about average returns.

TT returns or after Markup?

If you mean that with the tik500 you get better markup stuff than the mf-105... and therefore better returns, you are right.

If you are talking about TT return, then you are wrong.

You want similar level finders? Z20 and OF-105, drop a few thousand bombs with each... I have and the TT return is the same.

 

[Tracer-Bullet]

I didnt -rep you for correcting me. I gave you -rep for giving out wrong information. And yes, by my experience L finders do give better returns, and yes, TIK500 has a markup of 200%, but on the other hand, what do you compare it against? Best UL finder has depth of 522m, when tik500 has 776.
My point is, if you compare UL finder and its L counterpart, L is better.

Your original point was not "if you compare UL finder and its L counterpart, L is better", It was "Always go for the L ones. You get better returns and more skills." That is what I was correcting you about.

Regardless of your experience you stated that the (L) finders give you better returns as a fact, of which you had no proof/evidence. If anyone is giving out wrong information here it is YOU. I have NOT said anything incorrect so far so please do not acuse me of doing so. However since you seem to have misinterpretted everything I have written so far feel ree to quote any of my posts and state what you deem to be incorrect with some facts.

And by the way Anna, I actually can't belive you gave me another -Rep telling me to "Stop Whining". That really is pathetic. And no, I'm still not going to -Rep you back.

~Tracer

 

[chevrons]

If you have L finder and you know how to use it, you get better results then with UL finder

No this won't do.

It is mathematically impossible to prove this.

I too used an OF-105 and a Z20 alternately for several thousand bombs, keeping exact records, and saw no difference in return.

Do not -rep others who correct your 'experience' with the facts.

 

[Lerxst]

Ahhh the great L, non-L finder debate. At Level 33 Prosepctor and Level 28 Surveyor I have dropped a few bombs and probes over the past year+ and used all kinds of finders. The worst finder I have used is the Z20 followed closely by the Z15 and Tik200(I call it the Tiny200), all L finders. Not sure what the deal is but they were all maxed and returns were horrible to say the least. Best finder was OF-211, OF-105 followed by the JU55 for a while then the JU55 just stopped hitting. Now, I mainly use the OF/MF-105's. Returns are hit and miss but both find enough rares and search in a wide enough range (about 240-850) to justify not going back to L. I still want to try higher level L finders but dont feel like shelling out my entire ped card to get one.

So, what it all boils down to is what works for you? Try both finders and use what seems right. While you are skilling up you probably wont be using either one very long anyways.

 

[Leroy Brown]

No, it is not impossible to prove it, just time consuming. In order to conclusively prove that they are within 1%, for example, you have to know the average for each to within 0.7%, which would take (1/0.007)^2=20000 dropped probes for each. That means you have to drop 40k probes (20k with each) just to show that they are almost definitely within 1% of one-another (or conversely, if there is a difference but it is only 1%, it would take this many probes to show conclusively that the difference exists.)

 

[Thantos]

I didnt -rep you for correcting me. I gave you -rep for giving out wrong information. And yes, by my experience L finders do give better returns, and yes, TIK500 has a markup of 200%, but on the other hand, what do you compare it against? Best UL finder has depth of 522m, when tik500 has 776.
My point is, if you compare UL finder and its L counterpart, L is better.

If that is the case, then I would have to -rep you. Because, based on my avatar's experience, UL finder works better then SIB or maxed L finder. That is just my individual experience though, so I cannot say it is conclusive. For my mining pleasure, UL works better. For you, obviously L works better. I'm happy for you and me. But I don't think you had enough evidence or reason to -rep Tracer.

BTW, if you -rep me for this, I will do my first revenge -rep.

 

[trikky]

if you -rep me for this, I will do my first revenge -rep.

hehe, anna ufo -rep me for mentioning finding a spaceship, I guess she doesn't think too much when she does it...

 

[Leroy Brown]

Can we please stop the drama and get back on topic?

The fact is that we do not know whether one finder is inherently better than another or not. Logically, it makes little sense for there to be any difference between two finders except depth and decay. But, this is MA we're talking about so you never know. Figuring this out to within any reasonable margin of error would take a huge amount of probes. I doubt that anybody has collected sufficient data to prove it either way, but if you have, please feel free to speak up and present it. Note that by "sufficient data" I mean tens of thousands of dropped probes with each one.

Therefore, nobody can say with certainty either way that one finder is better than another or that they are both the same. We just do not know right now. So the best thing to do is look at which one gives you the best depth (and SIB if skillgain is important to you), and use that.

 

[Trina Xenophage]

Everybodys returns are different with the ful range of different finders. The fact is mining has become a joke just as hunting has. The variation in areas and skills that different players have and mine will determine what is comming back to the player.

I have found that the higher I go in skill the less I tend to find in size variation. I have however gotten a higher claim /bomb ratio. I can use up to tk 320 and am nearing the time I can use a VRX2000. The finders I have now, and the finders I have tried before, all tend to get the same size finds now. The only reliable finder I have is the OF 105. It has the most stable returns AND it finds more rare ore then any of the L finders I have used.

MA is changing mining just as they have hunting. You WILL spend more and you WILL get less as time goes by. It does not take a genious to see this over time. The way I see it it will be better in the future to invest in higher skills to chip in then wasting any ped on the crap gear they have designed as they truely have no better performance then the UL ones. The skills will at least help that claim / bomb ratio as MA is tending more twords making All of Calypso more like CND with more nrf inbetween claims as each VU passes along with other changes to lessen players return.

Example: When looking for new areas you USED to get a few odd claims as you mined along the path you took. Now it is like they flipped a switch and ore is turned completely off untill you cross into the next area where ores would spawn.

I said it before when they first came out and Ill say it yet again. SIB only means Suckered Into Buying. All the number crunchers can dispute it, all the MA kiss asses can dispute it, but I have over 200 dvd's now of all my play time that I can go back and SEE what changes were made and when. Its too easy for MA to change a formula minutely to force changes that may not be calculated as frequently to check on them. When you go back and see what you were doing a few months back you can visually compare what has changed. You will be saddened, maddened, and feel totally ripped off if you did this to prove to yourself what is happenening.

But Gl in the "future"!

PS.. for all you movie makers...use one of the newer TV's as a monitor. Out put from that to a dvd recorder and recod your motion video to disk. Then use editing softaware to make the movie. FARRRR better video quality then useing Fraps or other programs that hog processor time and memory resources.