Using unmaxed ul gun

[Jburn666]

So the title say all about the thread.

Wich hunter here hunt with unmaxed ul gun ?
Like me im using Omegaton m2875 tier 5.2 + armatrix amp that fit my current lvl on gun. Im only lvl 60 (almost)
Am i killing my return with this kind of gun or since 2.0 some thing have changed and return are better even if unmaxed.
Im kind of not sure... havent hit an uber in month before i bought the gun and then first run on it i hit a 1030 ped atrox provider... probably just because there was alot of shared mob being hunt.

Whats your toughts and history about those gun guys ?

John burn.

 

[Daimon Frey]

Unmaxed dmg doesn't matter anymore as return is based on real cost to kill - only consequence is more shraps in loot, same with overamping. You probably lose in unmaxed hit but how much nobody know for sure. I tried to test that with jester D-1 but didn't last long enough to give meaningful result. I would have to kill 100k+ mobs with it to be sure and i was bored after few k kills. But what i know is that results wasn't much off comparing to tt rifle on same sample. Still sample was too small to know for sure.

 

[Jburn666]

Thanks for your comment anyone else ?

John burn

 

[Darkaruki]

Unmaxed dmg doesn't matter anymore as return is based on real cost to kill - only consequence is more shraps in loot, same with overamping. You probably lose in unmaxed hit but how much nobody know for sure. I tried to test that with jester D-1 but didn't last long enough to give meaningful result. I would have to kill 100k+ mobs with it to be sure and i was bored after few k kills. But what i know is that results wasn't much off comparing to tt rifle on same sample. Still sample was too small to know for sure.

We do know for sure... It's explicitly stated in the Loot 2.0 Dev Notes that Skill Misses are not taken into account in loot and are put towards a universe-wide 'Hunting Bonus Pool', which can be seen in double shrapnel loots.

It can also be proven extremely easily be entering a team with a weapon which is unmaxed in hit, swinging/shooting at a mob and skill missing, and then having the other person finish the mob off, in which case you will get NO loot.

The rest is correct though, because loot is now tied to Cost+Efficiency+Looter Profession, unmaxed Dmg just means that your kills will be more expensive than they would otherwise be, but that cost will be accounted for.

 

[theProphet]

since SIB guns have been introduced the first time like 13 years ago, it was commonly known that you shouldn't use level 100 guns when being unmaxed.

at loot 2.0 mindark stated that loot should be more related to costs now, instead of your damage only. i think this is at best only the half truth, and i suggest to do your own proper testings.

many numbercrunchers have done this already in the last year, and i can't remember a single one who is suggesting to use unmaxed guns. mindark also stated themselves that it can never be bad to increase your "performance".

that being said, not much has changed in my humble opinion. using bad gear still sucks, and i can only suggest to reconsider if you still really wanna use those somehow obsolete guns, which become more and more over the years...

GL & happy hunting!

 

[Jburn666]

since SIB guns have been introduced the first time like 13 years ago, it was commonly known that you shouldn't use level 100 guns when being unmaxed.

at loot 2.0 mindark stated that loot should be more related to costs now, instead of your damage only. i think this is at best only the half truth, and i suggest to do your own proper testings.

many numbercrunchers have done this already in the last year, and i can't remember a single one who is suggesting to use unmaxed guns. mindark also stated themselves that it can never be bad to increase your "performance".

that being said, not much has changed in my humble opinion. using bad gear still sucks, and i can only suggest to reconsider if you still really wanna use those somehow obsolete guns, which become more and more over the years...

GL & happy hunting!

Thanks alot prophet for your comment , ill start a log and see. After some testing ill be more aware of the situation.

John Jburn666 Burn.

 

[Angel O2 Mercer]

Grinding unmaxed is a very bad idea, those missed shots will not come back in loot.

 

[wizz]

Unmaxed dmg doesn't matter anymore as return is based on real cost to kill - only consequence is more shraps in loot, same with overamping. You probably lose in unmaxed hit but how much nobody know for sure. I tried to test that with jester D-1 but didn't last long enough to give meaningful result. I would have to kill 100k+ mobs with it to be sure and i was bored after few k kills. But what i know is that results wasn't much off comparing to tt rifle on same sample. Still sample was too small to know for sure.

*MISS*
*MISS*
*MISS*

= wasted ped not returned in loot.

So yeah, it DOES matter

 

[Daimon Frey]

*MISS*
*MISS*
*MISS*

= wasted ped not returned in loot.

So yeah, it DOES matter

I clearly said: "You probably lose in unmaxed hit ", only unmaxed dmg doesn't matter.

 

[Jburn666]

*MISS*
*MISS*
*MISS*

= wasted ped not returned in loot.

So yeah, it DOES matter

The thing is... i dont miss that often at all about once or twice every 3-4 mob

John Jburn666 Burn

 

[theProphet]

... dont miss that often at all about once or twice every 3-4 mob ...

and i don't lose ped that often, only around once or twice every 3rd to 4th day.

i suggest you start reading into that logging thingy again...

 

[Jburn666]

I mean is it better to pay high MU on armatrix or loose with unmaxed what do u think ?

 

[Angel O2 Mercer]

I mean is it better to pay high MU on armatrix or loose with unmaxed what do u think ?

If you hunt a lot it is much better to invest in ul gear so you pay virtually no MU. Then get as much markup as you can in your loot.

Not a fan of high MU (L) gear (including limited amps), no matter what the theoretical eco/eff they give you. Markup on (L) gear is not compensated in loot in any way (how could the game keep track of what you paid?).

Now, if you hunt a couple hours every other day of the month then it doesn't make sense to tie so many PED in UL gear. It all depends on (a) your budget, (b) your level and (c) your free time.

My opinion. Good luck.

Edit: By "ul gear" I meant SIB of course. I probably didnt answer your question sorry.

 

[Spawn]

I use an UL sib knife and I tag with ML-35 Mentor edition. Now Ml-35 ME is not an eco weapon and I am only level 66 blp sniper. I dont see a difference if I use M83 predator with a mayhem delta amp (which technically has eco over 3.0 if you looted the amp yourself). Then again, my technique of hunting involves bunny hopping instead of grinding, because I value loot more than skills. With bunny hopping my return is around 104%

If you grind a lot and hunt more than 5 hours a day.. I would never use UL non-sib. UL sib would be my choice. But if you are here for entertainment and want to do a bit more dmg than your siblevel, why not. Don't expect to win, unless you figured out how loot works.

 

[Atrax]

I've recently spent a bit of time with some ar-matrix guns I had maxed, some I had not quite maxed, and my handy old frean-d delta.

I found that if you pay attention to the subtle cues, and have the strength to slow way down or stop on bad cycles, loots with the frean-d can be quite nice.

I got my easiest and most consistent returns with 10/10 ar-matrix weapon and beast.

I got simply less returns (not tracking or counting skill tt with either weapon) but still pretty consistent performance with a 9.6/9.2 ar-matrix weapon with beast when I got impatient

Trying to straight up grind with the frean-d + beast would be a mistake I think, unless you're seeing some skill gains or something you value more than loot.

HOWEVER: Those subtle cues I mentioned are important, and if I'm using the frean-d cycle variance is more significant and thus more obvious. Even without micro-tracking (trying to record and analyze data pers shot in real time?) certain trends are obvious.

Also it's my observation that if you're making enough kills when things are busy the bonus shrapnel drops often come in a nice enough size to offset those "skill miss" losses as long as you can keep your average damage up.

So these are my thoughts after specifically looking at this question over the last few weeks. I'm not tracking or logging in such a way as to give you some hard stats, but I don't honestly grind enough to turn over any relevant sample size for straight up law of large numbers grinding.

Pros and cons come down to playstyle I guess. If you're able to gummy bear (i think also what spawn recently called bunny hopping) around to profitable activities or you're just wanting to move your hunting slider over to "condition" a little bit, there's definitely more place for UL Non-SIB than ever since the intro of SIB.

Risk/reward and all that.

 

[Jburn666]

I've recently spent a bit of time with some ar-matrix guns I had maxed, some I had not quite maxed, and my handy old frean-d delta.

I found that if you pay attention to the subtle cues, and have the strength to slow way down or stop on bad cycles, loots with the frean-d can be quite nice.

I got my easiest and most consistent returns with 10/10 ar-matrix weapon and beast.

I got simply less returns (not tracking or counting skill tt with either weapon) but still pretty consistent performance with a 9.6/9.2 ar-matrix weapon with beast when I got impatient

Trying to straight up grind with the frean-d + beast would be a mistake I think, unless you're seeing some skill gains or something you value more than loot.

HOWEVER: Those subtle cues I mentioned are important, and if I'm using the frean-d cycle variance is more significant and thus more obvious. Even without micro-tracking (trying to record and analyze data pers shot in real time?) certain trends are obvious.

Also it's my observation that if you're making enough kills when things are busy the bonus shrapnel drops often come in a nice enough size to offset those "skill miss" losses as long as you can keep your average damage up.

So these are my thoughts after specifically looking at this question over the last few weeks. I'm not tracking or logging in such a way as to give you some hard stats, but I don't honestly grind enough to turn over any relevant sample size for straight up law of large numbers grinding.

Pros and cons come down to playstyle I guess. If you're able to gummy bear (i think also what spawn recently called bunny hopping) around to profitable activities or you're just wanting to move your hunting slider over to "condition" a little bit, there's definitely more place for UL Non-SIB than ever since the intro of SIB.

Risk/reward and all that.

Thanks alot guys !!

 

[theProphet]

(which technically has eco over 3.0 if you looted the amp yourself)

you're wrong.

there is exactly one difference between a looted and a bought item and that is the theoretical cost of selling it, which you could have done everytime. the cost of using it is market price, not TT.

 

[Edward-James]

only say it in short.....its way more better now tu use unmaxed guns then it was in past with loot 1.0...

but still way better is not always the best way too...many things to consider and also personal opinions/options

this is a copy out from loot 2.0 release notes :

"For optimal loot, it will be important to avoid inefficiencies such as low damage output compared to creature health, excessive time and cost to kill, overkill damage, unmaxed weapons and other factors."


Source :

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/content.php?247-Developer-Notes-11-Loot-2-0


Ofc you can countercalc every option to see what is best in your situation....same eff with an ul-non sib (losing some %) compared to paying higher mu on maxed ones several times a day,if you are a bigger hunter...etc


Eddie

 

[pechunter]

This seems like a contradiction to the also stated more ammo spent and mob regen = more return

this is a copy out from loot 2.0 release notes :

"For optimal loot, it will be important to avoid inefficiencies such as low damage output compared to creature health, excessive time and cost to kill, overkill damage, unmaxed weapons and other factors."


Source :

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/content.php?247-Developer-Notes-11-Loot-2-0

 

[BigPimping]

Yes but the ammo spent in misses isnt calculated in return its just gone, as if you took the cost of the shot and put it on the ground for soemone else to pickup. Theory crafting only gets you so far and everyone has different goals and expectations i suggest you run some detailed tests OP and adjust your playstyle accordingly.

 

[Evey]

This seems like a contradiction to the also stated more ammo spent and mob regen = more return

It's not a contradiction, You're confusing return rate with the actual loot.
A higher cost will result in more loot but the return (rate/ratio) would not be affected. It means that on same HP mob, 10 ped cost will result in 9.5 PED loot while "buffing" up the cost to 20 ped, will result in 18 PEDs return. You will get more loot, yes, in quantity, but at the same rate. It will also be lower quality, you will get in long term more shrapnel instead of getting more markup.
You culd get the same amount of muscle oil in the 10 PEDs cost as the scenario with 20 PEDs cost, but, instead of buffing up the cost, you could just kill another mob and potentially get twice the amount of muscle oil...

Optimal loot is the loot composition and it's not related to the returns (return rate/ratio, that percentage of output versus the input). Return (%) is influenced by looter prof level and weapon efficiency - this is a setting in the programming while optimal loot is a concept and it was mentioned to make people avoid silly buffing up the cost in order to get more but shittier loot...

 

[Atrax]

...

Yes but the ammo spent in misses isnt calculated in return its just gone, as if you took the cost of the shot and put it on the ground for soemone else to pickup

...

The ammo spent on misses is normally counted in a "return calculation" as a cost, I'm pretty sure of that. So I'm not sure what you mean by it isn't calculated in return. Would you leave out bonus shrapnel then?

In regard to my comment earlier:

It's one more factor that affects your actual dpp when you calculate PED spent per PED looted. And it's less "just gone" than some other expenses (like (L) item MU) because it goes into a pool and you loot from that pool.

That's the skill miss pool and like anything else in EU, it seems to run on a cycle. And that pool has become an important part of very hunter's return calculation, even the ones that don't think about it.

Who doesn't love the bonus shrap minis?

it's not PEDs from MA is all I'm saying, it's a loot pool. It's like every other loot pool in EU. People pay into it and get paid out of it according to, ahhh, dynamic factors.

So based on a few (tens of) thousands ped recently cycled through SIB and non-SIB weapons in the last 30 days I found it worth mentioning. Is there any loot pool in EU that isn't paying out on a cycle (waves if you prefer)? Is there a loot pool in EU where PED out isn't related to PED in?

Again based on only a few thousand loot events but as long as I take a cool off when I see I'm consistently hitting below the minimum damage of the (maxed) weapon + amp I've been seeing decent returns. And that includes a lot of cases where the bonus shrapnel has been 12 - 20 PED with an otherwise 2-4 PED loot.

That covers a lot of misses, and it happens whether I'm using a total efficiency weapon in the low 60% or low 70% range.

If anyone else has started looking at this I'm super interested in data from any grinder willing to track/share big numbers regarding misses and bonus shrapnel now. Especially if you're doing it unmaxed or with a variety of weapons.

I'm using a frean-d delta because I had it around. Honestly after a few runs hunting LT/Wombana and such with it recently I'm considering buying another Maddox IV. I might cycle a few thousand more PED paying attention to skill gains because if there's more gain with the UL than with maxed SIB I'd consider skimming a bit off my returns at this level. I'm not willing/able to do that with the MV on unmaxed ar-matrix as comfortably.

Everything is situational and dynamic here. And nothing I've said changes the fact that if you want to just auto grind endlessly you are 100% better off to use the most maxed and efficient setup you can.

 

[BigPimping]

The ammo spent on misses is normally counted in a "return calculation" as a cost, I'm pretty sure of that. So I'm not sure what you mean by it isn't calculated in return. Would you leave out bonus shrapnel then?

What? Im saying if the system sees you as deserving 95% TT return based on effic+looters skills that you will get 95% of your costs minus any misses which wont be returned at any % to you.

 

[timofeJKE]

Gravis GBR-34 t5 with improved fi/ra/co cause
tt return like 90-92%, i am pretty happy with it, no need to find L guns, with which return is better but still a loss and DPS a lot worse for my 40-35 hit/dmg blp noob lvl

 

[Atrax]

What? Im saying if the system sees you as deserving 95% TT return based on effic+looters skills that you will get 95% of your costs minus any misses which wont be returned at any % to you.

Things are different in the very long term, when you average the effects of thousands of events together.

In the immediate term, the system makes a calculation regarding what you will receive at the moment you kill a mob and it has nothing to do with the system "deciding what you deserve".

There are several inputs to the calculation the system makes and it involves your cost to kill (this used to be an average but is now very personal and immediate as well, right?) and a Multiplier. We don't know how many inputs there actually are into this calculation and we know only how some of them are weighted against an unknown number of others.

Trying to state what occurs right then is exactly what someone called "theory crafting".

However from a black box user perspective we have a very simple calculation. Every pec you spent delivering damage to that mob vs every pec you gathered from looting it.

Most newer loot discussions seem to ignore the bonus loot pool and for players logging and calculating large runs it's not important how the system is adding or removing that loot to their returns, I'm assuming that's why I haven't seen much discussion about it, because what I'm saying is:

In a few thousand loot events I've taken notice of the fact that this bonus loot pool adds another "cycling" factor to look out for, if you care about such things.

I'm not claiming a definitive correlation between adding to your costs and adding to your loot in this case and there may be some perception bias. I'm open to hard numbers. Some detail oriented players may have relevant data in more useful amounts, especially if their logging apps are capturing loots.

...

Optimal loot is the loot composition and it's not related to the returns (return rate/ratio, that percentage of output versus the input). Return (%) is influenced by looter prof level and weapon efficiency - this is a setting in the programming while optimal loot is a concept and it was mentioned to make people avoid silly buffing up the cost in order to get more but shittier loot

...

Excellent point really. Sometimes I'm wordy but a lot of things in EU Depend on the user's specific goals at a given time, and the "answer" to a question like OPs depends a lot on goals.

I used to hunt for loot to craft with, but for me that's basically dead. I have been hunting more and more first to burn UA from boxes, then since loot 2.0 just straight up buying UA packs, because I've found the changes to be advantageous for my hunting style and goals which are not the same as someone trying to max their cycling as a hunter.

It also means that on those runs "real breakeven" is really about 97% for me since that would be the cost of buying PEDS to feed directly to the crafting machine. Super Convenient.

This means that generally unless there's an event going on, or more recently just exploring edge cases in all this new looting stuff, I'm looking to cycle as few times as possible with max TT returns. I have a retail space for looted items I don't like to TT but I rarely have enough hunting loot for "auctionable stacks" of anything.

I'm also QUITE happy with fewer (stackable) items and more shrapnel in a lot of cases, so I see a situation where decreased loot quality can actually have a positive impact on my personal goals, which (on most of my hunting trips) is maximizing single cycle TT returns without regard for my own specific advancement as a hunter.

This doesn't mean that I'm not paying attention, and sometimes I have to go out and do everything "by the book" for a minute just to remind myself that wild volatility has become somewhat optional.

Anybody else's mileage may vary.

 

[BigPimping]

You just post walls of text saying very little it makes my head hurt. im telling you looter prof + effic gives you a set tt return that your loot multis are based off, im telling you that misses are not factored into that and are ped lost. They go into the bonus pool for someone else not you. I dont even know if youre disagreeing with me or agreeing or talking about something difference entirely

 

[Atrax]

You just post walls of text saying very little it makes my head hurt.

There's like 250 words there in response to your post I'm sorry that's a lot.

im telling you looter prof + effic gives you a set tt return that your loot multis are based off, ...

I don't know why you are telling me this. It's incorrect. Not just because it's incomplete but also because it's specifically stated by MA that efficiency is a factor in loot quality, not loot quantity. If this is fundamental to your understanding of loot please stop trying to educate me.

Also pretty much all information points to the multipliers involved being pretty regular while the TT return % being multiplied varies per looting event. This is probably less critical to your interpretation though.

... im telling you that misses are not factored into that and are ped lost. They go into the bonus pool for someone else not you...

I'm trying to explain to you that misses are a cost that have a place in your calculations, and bonus loots are a return that have a place in your calculations. They are not "for someone else not you", they go into a loot pool that you will be looting from.

I dont even know if youre disagreeing with me or agreeing or talking about something difference entirely

I'm basically disagreeing with most of what you said, and explaining why. I cut out a few extra words about your manners and presentation to help with the headache.

 

[Jhereg]

Somewhere out there there's data that shows

0.0 hit you will miss 20% shots (10% skill miss, 10% dodge/evade) than you would at 10.0, where you will miss 10% simply from dodge/evade.

As stated before: skill misses are not compensated as part of your tt return, but dodge/evade is.

So it is quite simple to see how this ends up impacting your tt return. Expect your tt return to be 10% less @ 0.0 hit than it would be at 10.0 hit.

 

[Atrax]

Somewhere out there there's data that shows

0.0 hit you will miss 20% shots (10% skill miss, 10% dodge/evade) than you would at 10.0, where you will miss 10% simply from dodge/evade.

As stated before: skill misses are not compensated as part of your tt return, but dodge/evade is.

So it is quite simple to see how this ends up impacting your tt return. Expect your tt return to be 10% less @ 0.0 hit than it would be at 10.0 hit.

All perfectly sensible. I wouldn't even ask for sources from a less distinguished player/poster.

I expect that dataset is pre loot 2.0 though. And as published probably doesn't include the data points necessary to sort out (or even account for) the bonus loot pool.

If you think it might I'd appreciate any hints you have on who might have posted it or when.

I'm getting bonus loots in amounts that aren't (obviously/directly) related to the multiplier that seems to be in effect for my TT returns on that particular looting event. This is happening when using weapons with 6.x/6.x, 9.x/9.x, and 10/10 levels of SIB.

I think so far nobody cares and as long as the trackers and long term loggers show that long term averages approach expectations nobody will bother looking into it with any significant cost or time investment.

Still, apparently it's cyclic and it's got it's own multiplier system in effect. Eventually there will be enough data for someone to make a correlative link to something tangible.

In the meantime and on-topic, I would continue to say that after several thousand loot events switching between primarily 10/10 and 6.x/6.x weapons I think that the bonus shrapnel loot were part of why my results were better than expected on several runs using the unmaxed weapon.

It's a major part about why I feel there's a better place for skilling or otherwise playing (including trying to manipulate a lot of loot theories) with a UL gun in loot 2.0 than there was before. And that's the question in the OP.



Irritation with newish forum accounts trolling hard on obviously wrong or irrelevant info lately and then lashing out with insults is a separate issue. I've been spending too much time on PCF lately I think.

The moon is here so let them get out there and make me some PEC

Edit: to clarify what I mean by "better than expected" I mean going on a run with 500 - 600 ped in ammo and coming in with TT returns in the 95 - 110% range (after repairs ofc) and without any globals. This is hunting LT young > old with frean-d delta, beast, a starter pack sight and some random scope, wearing gremlin mostly with 5b.

Maybe 5 runs like this while I was hunting migration and another 2 that were the mess you would expect from hunting with such gear.

Out of 20 - 30 similar runs using the three guns. The run that finally killed my bankroll was using an ar-matrix at 10/10 lol.

 

[BigPimping]

All perfectly sensible. I wouldn't even ask for sources from a less distinguished player/poster.

I expect that dataset is pre loot 2.0 though. And as published probably doesn't include the data points necessary to sort out (or even account for) the bonus loot pool.

If you think it might I'd appreciate any hints you have on who might have posted it or when.

I'm getting bonus loots in amounts that aren't (obviously/directly) related to the multiplier that seems to be in effect for my TT returns on that particular looting event. This is happening when using weapons with 6.x/6.x, 9.x/9.x, and 10/10 levels of SIB.

I think so far nobody cares and as long as the trackers and long term loggers show that long term averages approach expectations nobody will bother looking into it with any significant cost or time investment.

Still, apparently it's cyclic and it's got it's own multiplier system in effect. Eventually there will be enough data for someone to make a correlative link to something tangible.

In the meantime and on-topic, I would continue to say that after several thousand loot events switching between primarily 10/10 and 6.x/6.x weapons I think that the bonus shrapnel loot were part of why my results were better than expected on several runs using the unmaxed weapon.

It's a major part about why I feel there's a better place for skilling or otherwise playing (including trying to manipulate a lot of loot theories) with a UL gun in loot 2.0 than there was before. And that's the question in the OP.



Irritation with newish forum accounts trolling hard on obviously wrong or irrelevant info lately and then lashing out with insults is a separate issue. I've been spending too much time on PCF lately I think.

The moon is here so let them get out there and make me some PEC

Edit: to clarify what I mean by "better than expected" I mean going on a run with 500 - 600 ped in ammo and coming in with TT returns in the 95 - 110% range (after repairs ofc) and without any globals. This is hunting LT young > old with frean-d delta, beast, a starter pack sight and some random scope, wearing gremlin mostly with 5b.

Maybe 5 runs like this while I was hunting migration and the run that finally killed my bankroll was using an ar-matrix.

what? he said the exact same thing i said