Developer-Notes #12 - Loot-2.0 Follow-Up

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[h=2]Developer Notes #12 - Loot 2.0 Follow-Up[/h] This installment of Developer Notes attempts to clear up some of the questions and misconceptions related to the Version Update 15.15.0 - Loot 2.0.

Economy Parameter (soon to be renamed Efficiency)
One of the most misunderstood features of Loot 2.0 was the introduction of the Economy parameter and its effect on loot calculations. Based on feedback received via support cases and our monitoring of forum discussions, it appears that one cause of confusion is the use of the term ‘Economy’ for this parameter. As such, the Economy parameter will be renamed to Efficiency in the upcoming patch, which more accurately captures the effect of this parameter. Also in the upcoming patch, the tooltip text for the Efficiency parameter will be changed to the following:

Efficiency indicates the cost-effectiveness of a weapon (or weapon attachment) in creating damage. Efficiency values range from 1-100, and higher values indicate better efficiency. Efficiency is an inherent property of an item, and thus is not affected by avatar skills. Weapons that have scopes, lasers or amplifiers attached will display a modified Efficiency value (in orange).​

A few additional points about Efficiency parameter will hopefully clear up many of the questions and dispel some of the more common misconceptions that we have noticed:
  • The Efficiency parameter is not affected by avatar skills.
  • The largest components by far in loot value calculations are costs, such as weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc.
  • The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value).
  • The displayed Efficiency parameter for a given weapon does not correspond to expected overall loot return.

Optimal Loot
Another feature of Loot 2.0 that has sparked lots of discussion and speculation is Optimal Loot.

It is important to note that Optimal Loot only affects loot composition (what you loot), not the loot value (how much you loot). There is no Optimal Loot penalty for hunting creatures that are well below your avatar’s level; in fact most such kills will meet the requirements for Optimal Loot composition.

To best achieve Optimal Loot:
  • Be sure to have the Hit Ability and Damage profession requirements maxed (10.0/10.0) on the weapon your avatar is using.
  • Avoid over-amping (using a weapon amplifier that adds more than 50% of the maximum damage of the weapon to which it is equipped).
  • Minimize healing costs and the need to interrupt damage dealing to heal.
In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot. There is no inherent “kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time.

Crafting, Resources and Economy
MindArk is working on restructuring and streamlining the item situation in Entropia Universe. This involves many changes to the crafting system and loot distribution, with the goal of reducing the number of components, resources and similar items in the universe, to ensure that the majority of items have a place within the economy.

The balance between looted and crafted items, along with items from other sources such as events, competitions, strongboxes, etc., will be improved to strike a better balance.

New blueprints will use existing components and resources as much as possible to sustain a thriving and interdependent economy between crafting, mining and hunting.


Originally Posted Here
 
inb4 tantrums

Good follow-up. Keep up the communication.

Helps prevent PCF version of:

 
The Efficiency parameter is a component in loot calculations

The displayed Efficiency parameter for a given weapon does not correspond to expected overall loot return.

:scratch2: Ok

Crafting, Resources and Economy
MindArk is working on restructuring and streamlining the item situation in Entropia Universe. This involves many changes to the crafting system and loot distribution, with the goal of reducing the number of components, resources and similar items in the universe, to ensure that the majority of items have a place within the economy.

The balance between looted and crafted items, along with items from other sources such as events, competitions, strongboxes, etc., will be improved to strike a better balance.

New blueprints will use existing components and resources as much as possible to sustain a thriving and interdependent economy between crafting, mining and hunting.

I approve
 
:scratch2: Ok



I approve

They are saying that if your gun is 52%, then it is not expected that 52% is your loot return. Not sure why anyone could possibly think that but nothing surprises me.
 
good read overall.
keep up the good work Mindark
 
[h=2]Developer Notes #12 - Loot 2.0 Follow-Up[/h]
It is important to note that Optimal Loot only affects loot composition (what you loot), not the loot value (how much you loot). There is no Optimal Loot penalty for hunting creatures that are well below your avatar’s level; in fact most such kills will meet the requirements for Optimal Loot composition.


Originally Posted Here

That's why no more L weap on auctionner, no one managed to drop them :lolup:

Thanks for the lights.
 
I think most (if not all) of these were common sense things, but glad you clarified them so hopefully the prophets of the apocalypse could take a break now. :)
 
I think most (if not all) of these were common sense things, but glad you clarified them so hopefully the prophets of the apocalypse could take a break now. :)

Patch tomorrow or not? That is the question. :)

Damn did not intend to quote. :(
 
mindark said:
In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot. There is no inherent “kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time.
Thanks for claryfying this.

mindark said:
The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value).
Interesting. Conforts my fucked up loot theories.
 
Optimal Loot
Another feature of Loot 2.0 that has sparked lots of discussion and speculation is Optimal Loot.

It is important to note that Optimal Loot only affects loot composition (what you loot), not the loot value (how much you loot). There is no Optimal Loot penalty for hunting creatures that are well below your avatar’s level; in fact most such kills will meet the requirements for Optimal Loot composition.

To best achieve Optimal Loot:

  • [*]Minimize healing costs and the need to interrupt damage dealing to heal.

Love this. WTB mod fap 30k at boxes.
[*]The displayed Efficiency parameter for a given weapon does not correspond to expected overall loot return.
[/LIST]
This part I can't comprehend.
In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot. There is no inherent !“kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time.
Good so no kill timer, but the lower cost to kill a creature = in higher optimal loot, certainly explains how one can get much better loot on punies for instance.
 
Love this. WTB mod fap 30k at boxes.

This part I can't comprehend.

Good so no kill timer, but the lower cost to kill a creature = in higher optimal loot, certainly explains how one can get much better loot on punies for instance.

Just means moar buffz!
 
"Weapons that have scopes, lasers or amplifiers attached will display a modified Efficiency value (in orange)."

I see the orange but not the effect on the efficiency?
 
Put me right where I am wrong, but I interpret Loot 2.0 as....

Same old guff, just if you spend too much killing a mob you get Shrapnel instead of a potential item?
 
"Weapons that have scopes, lasers or amplifiers attached will display a modified Efficiency value (in orange)."

I see the orange but not the effect on the efficiency?

Try without the amp. Scopes/lasers make so little difference than a good amp masks it.
 
Put me right where I am wrong, but I interpret Loot 2.0 as....

Same old guff, just if you spend too much killing a mob you get Shrapnel instead of a potential item?

Yeah ... that really remove one thing .. that's EU is a game.

What the hell if i want to sometimes gamble on mob over my level ? So much fun to pay more to get shrapnel only.



I think sometimes, MA forget this is still a game for somes...
 
The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value).

Does that correspond to meaning that if the overall "Efficiency Parameter" of a weapon is 100, it would mean that your total loot value would be no more than 7% better than one using a weapon of "Efficiency Parameter" 0?

(All else equal of course.)

:confused:
 
Does that correspond to meaning that if the overall "Efficiency Parameter" of a weapon is 100, it would mean that your total loot value would be no more than 7% better than one using a weapon of "Efficiency Parameter" 0?

(All else equal of course.)

:confused:

Sounds about right :D

Glad MA posted this, its the most readable and least bogus post about loot I've ever seen from MA
 
Now im 100% sure that 2.0 is either extremely volatile or simply bugged (tt return wise)
 
Will we see a form of Scope/laser type attachment for melee and MFs :confused:
 
Developer Notes #12 - Loot 2.0 Follow-Up


..Efficiency indicates the cost-effectiveness of a weapon (or weapon attachment) in creating damage. Efficiency values range from 1-100, and higher values indicate better efficiency..[/INDENT]

A few additional points about Efficiency parameter...

[*]The largest components by far in loot value calculations are costs, such as weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc.
[*]The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value).

..

Originally Posted Here

Perhaps someone can help me to hunderstand:

1 Costs are the largest components in loot value calculations.
2 Efficiency inticates the costs of a weapon to create damage
3 Efficiency paramter influences no more than 7% of total loot value

If i have zero costs for healing and armor -->

1+2 = efficiency = costs = largest components in loot value

3 efficiency = 7% of total loot value

3 does not agree with 1+2

thanks
 
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Perhaps someone can help me to hunderstand:

1 Costs are the largest components in loot value calculations.
2 Efficiency inticates the costs of a weapon to create damage
3 Efficiency paramter influences no more than 7% of total loot value

If i have zero costs for healing and armor -->

1+2 = efficiency = costs = largest components in loot value

3 efficiency = 7% of total loot value

3 doest not agree with 1+2

thanks

The way I read it:

- your costs (ammo, weapon decay, armor decay, fap, etc) are compensated in loot; the more you spend to kill a mob, the higher the loot in absolute value

- still, probably the compensation is not done in full, so while by spending more money you'll get more loot in absolute value, percentwise it would be lower

example (fake number): kill a mob with a 10 PED cost and you will get 9 PED loot (90%); kill same mob with a 8 PED cost (for example by avoiding regen) and you will get 7.5 PED loot (93.75%) - 9 > 7.5, but 90% < 93.75%

- high-efficiency weapons get some bonus loot, but said bonus loot will not represent more than 7% of the total loot value, so something like the most eco hunter would get 3.5% more loot compared with the average hunter and the most careless hunter would get 3.5% less loot compared with the average hunter



And yes, efficiency is theoretically the measurement of how expensive is to deal damage (a direct reading of the old dpp), but it is a static value; in a real hunt, you have things like regen, overkill, extra costs that affect the effective cost to kill. Like use a high efficiency (dpp), but low dps weapon would allow the mob to regen a lot, so the effective cost to kill might be way higher than in the case of a lowish efficiency (dpp), but high dps weapon.
 
"It is important to note that Optimal Loot only affects loot composition (what you loot), not the loot value (how much you loot)."

I'm sorry but it is blatantly obvious that the TT VALUE (how much you loot) is less when i take too long to kill a mob. So either the game is bugged or this clarification is false. Anyone with 70-80 dps, go out and kill leviathan young-mature (without fapping) and note tt value of loot. Then go and kill providers-guardians (with fapping 5-6 times) and note tt value of loot. It is less than half. This replicates on all mobs with high HP that i've tried.

The difference doesn't even have to be that much for you to notice a dramatic drop in loot value returned. For example, hunt eviscerator gen 1-2 and then hunt gen 3-4. gen 1-2 gives much higher loot value.
 
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The part of new blueprints is so stupid, it was great before the EP blueprints, it destroy the whole economy. Now mindark tried to rebuild it with series of new new new blueprints, I mean seriously why they always do the same thing multiple times but still can't make things right
 
The way I read it:

- your costs (ammo, weapon decay, armor decay, fap, etc) are compensated in loot; the more you spend to kill a mob, the higher the loot in absolute value Agree

- still, probably the compensation is not done in full, so while by spending more money you'll get more loot in absolute value, percentwise it would be lower Agree (thats why in some event/competition is not so important to be eco)

example (fake number): kill a mob with a 10 PED cost and you will get 9 PED loot (90%); kill same mob with a 8 PED cost (for example by avoiding regen) and you will get 7.5 PED loot (93.75%) - 9 > 7.5, but 90% < 93.75% OK, and this is the same as pre VU

- high-efficiency weapons get some bonus loot, but said bonus loot will not represent more than 7% of the total loot value, so something like the most eco hunter would get 3.5% more loot compared with the average hunter and the most careless hunter would get 3.5% less loot compared with the average hunter i I don't know if it is a bonus or not, or if in the loot formula, cost to kill (CTK) enters in some math equation that influences the loot value less than 7% [total loot = function(x,y, CTK^f(z))].



And yes, efficiency is theoretically the measurement of how expensive is to deal damage (a direct reading of the old dpp), but it is a static value; in a real hunt, you have things like regen, overkill, extra costs that affect the effective cost to kill. Like use a high efficiency (dpp), but low dps weapon would allow the mob to regen a lot, so the effective cost to kill might be way higher than in the case of a lowish efficiency (dpp), but high dps weapon. Agree this is nothing new.

so if i pick the
A) A-3 Justifier Mk.II Improved Ancient: 55.9 dps - 3.281 eco
B) DetPil V-Rex 2000, SGA Edition 55.9 dps - 2.812 eco

same damage, same time to kill and same mob hp regen, same defensive costs

with a 1000hp mob
weapon A 3.04 ped to kill
weapon B) 3.55
cost B/cost A = 1.16%

so i expect that cost to kill in loot formula is not directly proportional to loot value
is not linear, or i cant understand sentence " Efficiency paramter influences no more than 7% of total loot value"

Edit: or perhaps is capped... at that 7% ..
 
Weapons that have scopes, lasers or amplifiers attached will display a modified Efficiency value (in orange).

In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot.

I want these points in bold to be explained, cause to me they do not make any sense...

You say that a higher efficiency rating is best to have, and some attachments minus over-amped will improve the rating, but then you are saying regardless of the eco rating, the lower the cost the better.
 
I want these points in bold to be explained, cause to me they do not make any sense...

You say that a higher efficiency rating is best to have, and some attachments minus over-amped will improve the rating, but then you are saying regardless of the eco rating, the lower the cost the better.

They're two different things.

First, is calculated the loot value (in terms of TT value) and there the efficiency has a role in formula (up to 7%)

Then, once the value of the loot was determined, is calculated the composition of loot (so either optimal loot or just shrapnel); there efficiency no longer has any role and only cost to kill is taken into consideration.
 
I am impressed by how many people skipped this line

It is important to note that Optimal Loot only affects loot composition (what you loot), not the loot value (how much you loot).


Aside from that, dear MA, when you introduce this efficiency thing can you please take a look at the parameter with the same name from mining excavators, so the descriptions would be done in same manner and would refer to the same concept?
 
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