Question: another account hacked??

Ancient said:

I dont think it is possible to get a one time code from a Gold Card. Try generating a code on your card reader before you even attempt to login to the game. You have to actually phyically be in posession of the card and card reader at the time you login.

Either that or get someone to read the code off to you.

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nah, you slide your card in and write the number down, if you slide your card in again and use the second number before the first, the first number wont work. as i said before, when my card reader was going out, i wrote down 3-4 numbers at a time, that way i knew how many times i could login before i wouldnt be able to play anymore til i got my new reader.. i just had to make sure i used them in order or i lost an opportunity to login or ..onetime i got out of sequence and had to enter two codes consecutivly or i would have been locked out. fortunatly, i used the right two
i can give you my login, password and the next code off my reader, i login before you, use the next number off the reader and you will not be able to login as me. the number i gave you will not work. only damage you could do would be to keep trying, keep failing and eventually i get locked until i can fix it.

Ok i know Nocturnal Navigator or did quite well.

First off he played from some time in pregold as well as hanging out in Argus all the time selling goods and helping noobs like me shortly after gold was launched when that was the main hangout. This was about the time i was first starting and i remember he gave me something like 100 peds of stuff for free and helped me to sell some things that i already had. He is a very kind soul, and is sad to hear that something this crazy has happened to his account.

I remember vividly hanging out with NN and Neverdie in NN's hangar talking about the future of the game in his lounge on some nice sitting chairs in the upstairs. This is something NN was constantly doing, talking about all the possibilities and ideas he had for what this awesome universe held for us. I remember to this day Neverdie talking about many of the same ideas with both of them going back and forth about what they thought was going to happen to the game.

I was pretty good friends with NN until about late 2004/early 2005 when he dissapeared for a long while. Perhaps about 1 month ago if not 6 weeks max I saw the NN avatar in Twin right next to the ring. I was so amazed to see him i instantly struck up a conversation with him and he talked in much of the same way as he had in the past. He brought to light the reasons for why he had been gone so long. The main reason he said was that his account had been locked because some hacker or something had gotten ahold of his password. Before the hacker could apparently remove any of his items from his account, MA locked both his and some other accounts in question. He then told me that the accounts had been locked for a good amount of time before he got an email back from MA stating that they had unlocked his account and he was extremely mad because they had not changed the password on the account. Apparently the hacker realised the accounts were unlocked and got into the account before NN could change the password and stole his hangar and several other nice things. The way NN was talking really made me think that this was the person i had known farely well in the past. I talked about this with him for several hours and i will admit i was getting pretty angry at the fact that this had happened to him. It definately seemed fishy though in many ways. As others have said he was always kind of a strange character, as if he had a huge store of wisdom and knowledge but was kinda cooky or ecentric. Be back in a bit at work! Thinking about what else i can bring into light

I am finding this all very intersting......

One of my friends recieved reply form support saying in a nutshell...

*All trades are final enjoy your ped*

I wonder if anyone else who has filed a support has gotten a response like this?

Me personally not, but a friend of mine got valuables of around 20k this way some months ago (not this case). Seems to be the way MA handles such issues.

ZippO said:

[...]
Apparently the hacker realised the accounts were unlocked and got into the account before NN could change the password and stole his hangar and several other nice things.[...]

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Theres only 1 thing... ok pass was the same but how about code from GC???? something fishy here..
I wonder if we will ever hear back from NN.

And btw about ''final trades'' - this does not look like justice for me.

Echo Biatch said:

I am finding this all very intersting......

One of my friends recieved reply form support saying in a nutshell...

*All trades are final enjoy your ped*

I wonder if anyone else who has filed a support has gotten a response like this?

Click to expand...

i dont know if tim tg grey even wrote a support about the fap, but my reply i recieved about it was " it was a fair trade"
after i explained why would someome sell a fap for cost of repairs, i thought maybe the facts would make it easier..espeically as they have a time line that can be traced back with propper chat logs and see what was said for themselves

during the repairing section of the trade, they can see tim asking to see fap in the trade window so he can pay the right amount for repaires, so then he puts the peds in the trade window and clicks, so naturally next thing to do is click again.. but oops the fap wasnt taken out of the trade window before accept... well crap, but no biggie he will give it back, he knows it belongs to ah.. MA can see what is being said, tim gets asked, "tim thats ahs fap you got by mistake we need to trade back, then i get it back to ah".


"well i dont see it that way, i have got screwed in pvp so many times it is about time i do it to someone else." i just got an adj fap for 7 peds repair " cmon dude you know that wasnt the deal, gimme the fap...they can see chot logs what was said ,the context of it. being he still had the fap ma could have given it to me and taken his 7 peds back and its back to the way it should of been, my final answer was Hello, even if we dont like this kind of behavior there is nothing we can do about this since it does not violate the EULA.
/Regards
Support lol

Perhaps we should be saying There is No support for EU. Hell there is No Morality @ MA. If there was we would see a Much different Response from MA.

As I said Earlier WHAT MA says in regards to "Keeping an ITEM that You know damn well isn't yours Is ok" THERE FUCKED in the Head. Thats TOTAL BULLSHIT THERE is No Court on this Planet that would tell a Thief they can Keep what they Stole Let alone an accessory to the Crime. In my eyes its no Different than the court allowing a criminal whose admitted guilt in any crime to go scott free.

If your car is stolen the authority's make every effort to retrieve it. the Government doesn't tell you its not yours anymore. thats Exactly whats going on inside EU. IF MA had any sense of Right and Wrong they would Return Every Item. Even if it was TT'ed they could at the least give the player the items back with no tt value.

IF MA wont do what is Right Then it is up to US to do the right thing by Nocturnal navigator No matter if he was Hacked before or not. IT should NOT be acceptable No matter how many times it HAPPENS. This is my Personal Core belief THOU SHALL NOT STEAL. And Do unto others as you would have done unto you. ther eare part of the EULA that I find acceptable There are Others that are Against what I believe.

It is Up to those that Received the Items to ASK MA if they can Return them anyways to NN

Hi,

so what happened with this thread?

Nobody is angry with this asnwer of MA:

"*All trades are final enjoy your ped*"?
Shouldn't they look into it?

When somebody accepted stolen goods for free in a trade (remember?) - what should be final... - why were their accounts locked down then?

What is the difference? Why don't MA try to figure out if it was NN or not?

Or they already know and everything is ok?

So now on I should happily accept high end gear for free and it will be mine, stolen or not? (Sarcastic....)

What's happening?

I see hanzo is selling a male angel helmet in auction at the moment.

Asha said:

Hi,

so what happened with this thread?

Nobody is angry with this asnwer of MA:

"*All trades are final enjoy your ped*"?
Shouldn't they look into it?

When somebody accepted stolen goods for free in a trade (remember?) - what should be final... - why were their accounts locked down then?

What is the difference? Why don't MA try to figure out if it was NN or not?

Or they already know and everything is ok?

So now on I should happily accept high end gear for free and it will be mine, stolen or not? (Sarcastic....)

What's happening?

Click to expand...

in a scamming situation, i dont know of anyone they have helped, they see it as a fair trade...and yes, i have a huge problem with it...this 1st NN "hacking" is the first time i have heard of someone getting there items back.. i am sure it had everything to do with death.. fortunatly the "hacker" offered them to the right avatar..just because someone accepts items from an avatar, doesnt mean he has the intentions of keeping them. .how would death know who is playing that avatar.. especially if it was his gf playing at the time...i would have taken the items too.... better off with me than most people...the items would have never left my possesion..

i find it very odd that NN hasnt come forward here..instead of standing in twin talking nonsense... If his account was hacked, wouldnt the hacker have access to his email too??..then it happens again, but now most the items were dropped!!! "hacker" made it almost impossible for NN to get the items back this time...sounds a bit more than just a "hacker" to me

Protect the new people from trouble with MA

When I heard what was happening in PA thru a friend new to EU, I rushed over there to investigate. I admit to spamming the channel trying to get people to stop taking stuff from him. I even went to other tps to try to find friends of his, in hopes they would call him and confirm that it was not a hack. I was told by one group that they were taking stuff and then planning to save it for the real nn. I commend those people. Yes, he should have a gold card and yes he should keep it safe, but shoulds should get set aside when there is an emergency such as that. Many of the avatars who took stuff were quite new to the game and had no idea of the risks they were taking by accepting possible "stolen" goods.

Woodger said:

I would challenge anyone who is offered high end items for stupidly low prices to question where they came from....

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Echo Biatch said:

Two of my ingame friends are quite worried about events that happened yesterday at PA.

There was an avatar running around dropping all his stuff inc several mentor edition weapons and had everyone in a frenzy giving everything away.
We are not talking about chicken feed here we are talking thousands of ped worth.

They could not remember the full ava name but said it was nocturnal navigator.

There was another ava saying it was his friend and he had been hacked...

My friends are holding items belonging to this avatar and would like to hear from him.
If anyone knows this person and can shed a little light on the subject I would appreciate hearing from them.

Thanks Everyone
Echo

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I know the guy... he is lieing bull shit

...and so the plot thickens....

Harvest said:

...and so the plot thickens....

Click to expand...

I'm curious how this will end...

I guess when MA mentions "World's Safest Virtual Universe" they are excluding hacked accounts or any measures to correct hacked accounts.

Of the several dozen mmogs I have played over the years I really can't think of any company that handles security worse then MA.

The way they handle hacked accounts is one of the major reasons people continue to hack accounts. One has nothing to lose and perhaps lots to gain, so why not try. If you break an account it is yours to keep.

One of these days the wrong person is going to lose a bunch of cash and we are going to start to see countries like the US and others start banning transactions just like they did with online casinos and sportbooks.

Slow paying withdrawls, charging fees for using a credit card (which is against terms of service for American credit card holders) no action take to reclaim stolen accounts and I could go on but I think most of us know all this anyway.

I really hope this company goes public soon.

lilmoo said:

I guess when MA mentions "World's Safest Virtual Universe" they are excluding hacked accounts or any measures to correct hacked accounts.

Of the several dozen mmogs I have played over the years I really can't think of any company that handles security worse then MA.

The way they handle hacked accounts is one of the major reasons people continue to hack accounts. One has nothing to lose and perhaps lots to gain, so why not try. If you break an account it is yours to keep.

One of these days the wrong person is going to lose a bunch of cash and we are going to start to see countries like the US and others start banning transactions just like they did with online casinos and sportbooks.

Slow paying withdrawls, charging fees for using a credit card (which is against terms of service for American credit card holders) no action take to reclaim stolen accounts and I could go on but I think most of us know all this anyway.

I really hope this company goes public soon.

Click to expand...

Interesting take on it. I'd think it would be a lot easier for other mmo companies to resolve hacks as they dont deal with real cash. Its easy to restore an account when its just pixels, not so when you would have to return $10K

What if they did return cash? Watch how many "I was hacked" threads pop up then Whenever money is involved people will scam

I don't understand what you mean by people claiming to be hacked? MA can see all the transactions on our accounts and our IP address.

What purpose would it serve to claim your account was hacked if it was not? Do you think may players would hide their IP address and then run around giving stuff away for free just for fun? I guess some might but that has not happened yet with a gold card account so I doubt it would be a concern.

MA withdrawls take at least 30 days so in most cases we are only talking about pixels. American banks will cover fraud if you inform them within a limited amount of time and I think that is fair. MA could do the same.

I wonder if MA has contacted this player yet by phone? Have they confiscated the items that were dropped yet? Do they have a dedicated team of personnel for such problems?

Once hackers understand their efforts here would gain them nothing then they will stop trying or at least the ones trying to make money from it will.

Edit: Also since out of game transactions are not allowed if someone makes such a transaction and gets scammed by another who claims their account was hacked and has their item(s) returned, well then tough. They did not follow the rules. MA needs to protect those who do follow the rules.

lilmoo said:

I don't understand what you mean by people claiming to be hacked? MA can see all the transactions on our accounts and our IP address.

What purpose would it serve to claim your account was hacked if it was not? Do you think may players would hide their IP address and then run around giving stuff away for free just for fun? I guess some might but that has not happened yet with a gold card account so I doubt it would be a concern.

MA withdrawls take at least 30 days so in most cases we are only talking about pixels. American banks will cover fraud if you inform them within a limited amount of time and I think that is fair. MA could do the same.

I wonder if MA has contacted this player yet by phone? Have they confiscated the items that were dropped yet? Do they have a dedicated team of personnel for such problems?

Once hackers understand their efforts here would gain them nothing then they will stop trying or at least the ones trying to make money from it will.

Edit: Also since out of game transactions are not allowed if someone makes such a transaction and gets scammed by another who claims their account was hacked and has their item(s) returned, well then tough. They did not follow the rules. MA needs to protect those who do follow the rules.

Click to expand...

being that there are inet cafes, IP doesnt really mean shit

edit: lets say i was at your house,on your pc and logged in as ah and dropped all my stuff, at the same time i login on your second computer, and grab as much stuff as i can, with a new avatar. i then claim my account was hacked... i am on your pc with your IP, so your saying on that basis alone MA should lock you, would that be right?

the only reason NN got his items back the first time is because death saw to it that he did, MA will not lock death for receiving items for what MA considers a fair trade..trust me on this,...

if someone uses peds from a stolen cc MA does get invloved, that is fraud..

unfortunatly most people will jump on the chance of buying something a lot cheaper than what its worth and not care why it is cheaper.. someone is going to buy it, might as well be me attitude...so if there is a market for it ,they arent going to stop doing it.

but in game transaction would be ok??

lilmoo said:

I don't understand what you mean by people claiming to be hacked? MA can see all the transactions on our accounts and our IP address.

What purpose would it serve to claim your account was hacked if it was not? Do you think may players would hide their IP address and then run around giving stuff away for free just for fun? I guess some might but that has not happened yet with a gold card account so I doubt it would be a concern.

MA withdrawls take at least 30 days so in most cases we are only talking about pixels. American banks will cover fraud if you inform them within a limited amount of time and I think that is fair. MA could do the same.

I wonder if MA has contacted this player yet by phone? Have they confiscated the items that were dropped yet? Do they have a dedicated team of personnel for such problems?

Once hackers understand their efforts here would gain them nothing then they will stop trying or at least the ones trying to make money from it will.

Edit: Also since out of game transactions are not allowed if someone makes such a transaction and gets scammed by another who claims their account was hacked and has their item(s) returned, well then tough. They did not follow the rules. MA needs to protect those who do follow the rules.

Click to expand...

So, what does MA actually see. Transactions to another account and IP address. Do you have a static IP then? I dont.

Transactions to another account - i guess it would be impossible for two people to work together. Or a team of people. Suddenly all items have been removed to multiple accounts, those items sold to more accounts. Good chance the buyers were resellers (under market price BO for quick sales) or in on the scam. So the items get listed again.

10 days later, the original avi claims he was hacked. The peds are all over the place. Somebody now has his full Angel. Do MA give him back the full market price amount for his stuff? If the do the scamers get the peds from the fire sale plus the compensation.

There is now way to prove that the avi that bought and resold was in on the scam. Do they return the Angel? If they do what happens to the guy who paid for it, he's not a scammer. Give him his Peds back maybe? Suddenly one supposed hack has cost MA a fair bit.

Or do they provide a gold card that will prevent most hackings and say all trades are final?

lilmoo said:

What purpose would it serve to claim your account was hacked if it was not?

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er, to get free stuff or scam people out of money? fairly good reason i'd say.

lilmoo said:

I don't understand what you mean by people claiming to be hacked? MA can see all the transactions on our accounts and our IP address.

Click to expand...

I think this is pretty much how MA sees things too.

lilmoo said:

What purpose would it serve to claim your account was hacked if it was not? Do you think may players would hide their IP address and then run around giving stuff away for free just for fun? I guess some might but that has not happened yet with a gold card account so I doubt it would be a concern.

MA withdrawls take at least 30 days so in most cases we are only talking about pixels. American banks will cover fraud if you inform them within a limited amount of time and I think that is fair. MA could do the same.

I wonder if MA has contacted this player yet by phone? Have they confiscated the items that were dropped yet? Do they have a dedicated team of personnel for such problems?

Once hackers understand their efforts here would gain them nothing then they will stop trying or at least the ones trying to make money from it will.

Edit: Also since out of game transactions are not allowed if someone makes such a transaction and gets scammed by another who claims their account was hacked and has their item(s) returned, well then tough. They did not follow the rules. MA needs to protect those who do follow the rules.

Click to expand...

Ppl will do anything for a buck.

Leandro Kun said:

So, what does MA actually see. Transactions to another account and IP address. Do you have a static IP then? I dont.

Transactions to another account - i guess it would be impossible for two people to work together. Or a team of people. Suddenly all items have been removed to multiple accounts, those items sold to more accounts. Good chance the buyers were resellers (under market price BO for quick sales) or in on the scam. So the items get listed again.

10 days later, the original avi claims he was hacked. The peds are all over the place. Somebody now has his full Angel. Do MA give him back the full market price amount for his stuff? If the do the scamers get the peds from the fire sale plus the compensation.

There is now way to prove that the avi that bought and resold was in on the scam. Do they return the Angel? If they do what happens to the guy who paid for it, he's not a scammer. Give him his Peds back maybe? Suddenly one supposed hack has cost MA a fair bit.

Click to expand...

It would not matter if 20 people worked together. MA should be able to track each item within seconds, even if it passed through 20 different players.

I do not think so many accounts get hacked that MA would be too busy to keep up with things.

MA should simply undo each transaction. If skills were involved then remove them and if any HOF's were involved then MA could use their best judgement and reduce the winnings or whatever. The point is this could be and should be done.

Seven or eight years ago when D2 was released they has major problems, during the first year even they with its free to play format they would go back and reset HUNDREDS of accounts if need be!

Here we are talking about a game where some players spend thousands of dollars, I would think the same could be done. Maybe I am wrong, maybe MA does not have the software tools available to them.

So let me get this straight, the policy of MA is:

If one succeeds in hacking an account, the hacker gains all items and skills of the account until the new unauthorized account holder is discovered. The empty avatar could be returned to the proper owner at a time in the future but all stolen items and funds remain the property of the intruder and those he made transactions with.

Is that the policy?

Edit: I am not sure how things work here but in most other games each item has a specific ID number. So let's say an Angel helmet is taken. A GM looks at that account, finds the helmet that account had, clicks on it and every transaction that helmet has been involved in since any specific date will be shown. Then during a maintence time those transactions are undone with one click of his mouse. Certainly there would be times when the GM would have to use is best judgement but hopefully this would not be needed to often.

There could also be some type of reasonable time frame and also a ped limit for this. For example MA will return items if notified within 14 days of the problem and only return all single items worth 10 peds or more. So a stack of ammo or wool might be lost (unless it's just sitting there unsold) but at least all your major items would be returned.

Just wanted to add one more thought on this subject.

What kind of publicity do you think it would create if one of these account owners who get hacked and lose thousands of dollars contacts PC Gamer magazine or some other and explains to them the situation?

That not only was their account hacked and MindArk notified but at that very moment their items worth hundreds or even thousands of dollars are being sold and that MA is actually facilitating the sale with their very own auction house.

Right on the front cover: MA Facititates hackers sale, page 46

It could happen and it could happen at just the wrong time too, with the new game engine coming out. How do you think the gaming community would embrace that story? What is really sad is that it is not a story, it is happening right now.

I like this game but I was just looking at all those Angel helmets for sale right now and was thinking to myself that I hope those aren't from this poor guys account. If they are it's just plain wrong, dead wrong.

Rolling back stuff can be easily exploited.

As far as safety & stuff goes, EU is ok imo.

It would need only some automated loan system like "i give item X to avatar Y for z period against this sum", press accept etc.

This particular event might look suspicios, but I sincerely don't see what can be MA accused of.

lilmoo said:

It would not matter if 20 people worked together. MA should be able to track each item within seconds, even if it passed through 20 different players.

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Yes it could. What cannot be decided is which of those players are an innocent part of that chain.

MA should simply undo each transaction. If skills were involved then remove them and if any HOF's were involved then MA could use their best judgement and reduce the winnings or whatever. The point is this could be and should be done.

Click to expand...

Again, it would be virtually guaranteed that innocent players would be affected by this. So no, it SHOULDN'T be done.

Seven or eight years ago when D2 was released they has major problems, during the first year even they with its free to play format they would go back and reset HUNDREDS of accounts if need be!

Click to expand...

D2? I don't think I know it, but does it have tens of thousands of players who have accounts with varying amounts of RL money in it? Up to multiple year salaries?
You think you can just reset stuff like that?

Here we are talking about a game where some players spend thousands of dollars, I would think the same could be done. Maybe I am wrong, maybe MA does not have the software tools available to them.

Click to expand...

The issue is not technical, the issue is how to decide who is involved/responsible/guilty. It can't in all fairness be done, so MA have decided to lay the responsibility squarely where it belongs: With the player base.

So let me get this straight, the policy of MA is:

If one succeeds in hacking an account, the hacker gains all items and skills of the account until the new unauthorized account holder is discovered. The empty avatar could be returned to the proper owner at a time in the future

Click to expand...

Correct.

but all stolen items and funds remain the property of the intruder and those he made transactions with.

Click to expand...

If the identity of the hacker is known, he will be locked and banned permanently. What happens with the items prolly depends on wether they are still in the hacker's account or not.
Otherwise, there is nothing that can be done.

Edit: I am not sure how things work here but in most other games each item has a specific ID number. So let's say an Angel helmet is taken. A GM looks at that account, finds the helmet that account had, clicks on it and every transaction that helmet has been involved in since any specific date will be shown. Then during a maintence time those transactions are undone with one click of his mouse. Certainly there would be times when the GM would have to use is best judgement but hopefully this would not be needed to often.

Click to expand...

Of course all items have a unique ID. Again, the issue is not technical in nature.
What if I bought that helmet in good faith? How would that be decided? Would I get the money back that I paid for it? How would it be decided how much I paid for it, considering it might well have been a package deal?
Suppose the person who sold it to me also aquired it in good faith? And he buys another expensive item from the money I paid him? It will be taken from him? Will it be returned to ITS previous owner, and that money returned as well? What if THAT is spent already??

Does it start to dawn on you how insanely complex this gets in just a few hours, let alone a week?

Of course all this is not even taking into consideration how to determine if an account was indeed hacked. The owner can say anything he wants.
That is why people have no recourse if they do not have a GC: A hack can never be proven or disproven.
And if you have a GC, you can't be hacked, unless you have made such bad errors in judgment or mistakes that no one but yourself can be blamed.

dbelinfante said:

Yes it could. What cannot be decided is which of those players are an innocent part of that chain.

It would noy matter who is innocent or guilty if everyone has their stuff back.


Again, it would be virtually guaranteed that innocent players would be affected by this. So no, it SHOULDN'T be done.

How would they be affected if they have everything returned?



D2? I don't think I know it, but does it have tens of thousands of players who have accounts with varying amounts of RL money in it? Up to multiple year salaries?
You think you can just reset stuff like that?

D2 is one of the top selling PC games of all time, selling MILLIONS of copies, and yes they used to reset stuff just like that, although since it was free to pay after buying the box they stopped supporting it after a time but the game still has over 100K active players. It is called Diablo 2 by blizzard btw.


The issue is not technical, the issue is how to decide who is involved/responsible/guilty. It can't in all fairness be done, so MA have decided to lay the responsibility squarely where it belongs: With the player base.

I disagree, it can be done and is done in many mmogs. We are not talking about who is guilty or not. We are talking about returning all items or a limited rollback.

Correct.


If the identity of the hacker is known, he will be locked and banned permanently. What happens with the items prolly depends on wether they are still in the hacker's account or not.
Otherwise, there is nothing that can be done.

There is plenty that can be done.


Of course all items have a unique ID. Again, the issue is not technical in nature.
What if I bought that helmet in good faith? How would that be decided? Would I get the money back that I paid for it? How would it be decided how much I paid for it, considering it might well have been a package deal?
Suppose the person who sold it to me also aquired it in good faith? And he buys another expensive item from the money I paid him? It will be taken from him? Will it be returned to ITS previous owner, and that money returned as well? What if THAT is spent already??

Does it start to dawn on you how insanely complex this gets in just a few hours, let alone a week?

Click to expand...

It does not matter how far the tree reaches, all items are returned to the original owners, can I make this more clear? No one would lose anything except the person who did the hack. Any gains by others are from an illegal activity and should be returned also.

If a person robs your house the police will also try to recover your items. If the thief sold your wedding ring to a pawn shop for one dollar do you think the pawn shop owner is entitled to keep it? Of course not. If someone bought it from the pawn shop are they legally allowed to keep it? No they are not. It does not matter how far the tree branches out. Everything is returned to everyone. Guilt does not matter.

*Sorry I messed this post up by putting some of my replies under your comments in your grey quotes.

lilmoo said:

It does not matter how far the tree reaches, all items are returned to the original owners, can I make this more clear? No one would lose anything except the person who did the hack. Any gains by others are from an illegal activity and should be returned also.

If a person robs your house the police will also try to recover your items. If the thief sold your wedding ring to a pawn shop for one dollar do you think the pawn shop owner is entitled to keep it? Of course not. If someone bought it from the pawn shop are they legally allowed to keep it? No they are not. It does not matter how far the tree branches out. Everything is returned to everyone. Guilt does not matter.

*Sorry I messed this post up by putting some of my replies under your comments in your grey quotes.

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The real problem is there is almost NO possable way to prove that the "inocent" are inocent.

If someone robs your house and they find the stuff, everyone who has the stuff, wether sold or not becomes suspect.

Unlike RL, once ped is taken out, its gone...MA cant force anybody to repay or reset anything, its over.

Its just insurance fraud in a way....heres my keys steel my car and burn it, I will make a claim and you get a cut.

lilmoo said:

No one would lose anything except the person who did the hack.

Click to expand...

Wrong. You don't fully see all the possible branches that may occur. Not all transactions can be rolled back without negatively affecting innocent players.

lilmoo said:

MA should simply undo each transaction.

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i wish i lived in that little uncomplicated world.

lilmoo said:

So let me get this straight, the policy of MA is:

If one succeeds in hacking an account, the hacker gains all items and skills of the account until the new unauthorized account holder is discovered. The empty avatar could be returned to the proper owner at a time in the future but all stolen items and funds remain the property of the intruder and those he made transactions with.

Is that the policy?

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yes.

lilmoo said:

It does not matter how far the tree reaches, all items are returned to the original owners, can I make this more clear? No one would lose anything except the person who did the hack. Any gains by others are from an illegal activity and should be returned also.

If a person robs your house the police will also try to recover your items. If the thief sold your wedding ring to a pawn shop for one dollar do you think the pawn shop owner is entitled to keep it? Of course not. If someone bought it from the pawn shop are they legally allowed to keep it? No they are not. It does not matter how far the tree branches out. Everything is returned to everyone. Guilt does not matter.

*Sorry I messed this post up by putting some of my replies under your comments in your grey quotes.

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have you ever innocently been in receipt of stolen goods? i think you might have a different view if you had. you spend out several k on a car then its "recovered" by the police and returned to the owner... great. but now you are the victim of the crime. imagine that across dozens of people, all made victims, peds deposited, items sold to buy another... just how far back do you want to reverse the trades? then theres the scope to fake a hack as part of a scam. People talk about the morals of the issue, but its not so clear cut. MA have chosen to stop the chain at the root. whatever your real world morals or ethicals, its pragmatic solution to a problem in a commercial world where they make up the rules: minimise the negativity of the situation. get over it.

(and we still dont even know if anyone got hacked or done anything wrong...)

Lilmoo,

Listen mate, we all know it would be horrible to be hacked. And yeah, it would be frustrating as hell if it happened to me and MA said not much can be done. But here's the thing, i have a goldcard.

There hasn't been a hack on a goldcard account (that hasn't been down to user error) You asked what MA's policy is. Goldcard is there policy. They will lock the accounts of the hackers if possible, but the ped's are long gone. There going to be a second account anyway, and like i said before, its not hard to get rid of your static IP.

You seem to think that because we have RCE it should be a reverse all policy like free mmo's. When in fact the RCE makes it much more complicated.