About theft and subterfuge

Hi all this is a reply to an interesting question from another thread.

I did answer it to my best knowledge, but maybe there are some more ideas, hints or perceptions on the matter, so feel free to discuss.

jdegre said:

does this law apply to virtual funds, i.e., collecting virtual money (because that's what the PED is), to create a virtual corporation, to invest in virtual assets (which are owned by MA, btw, so the fund does not OWN anything at all).
i really doubt there is RL legislation for that matter.

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That is not completely true.

The laws that matter in this regard are simply the ones that regard theft and/or depending on the case at hand also subterfuge.

But this is the simple part, now is where the internet fun of complexity kicks in.
1st problem) getting a hold of a legally correct address of the culprit (aka locating the perpetrator), this won't be easy as you need to find the correct official way to register a cyber crime in your country, so they can contact MA and get this done
2nd problem) from which country will the jurisdiction kick in? this also is linked to extradition contracts of the respective perpetrators country and victims country
3rd problem) conception of the evidence by the court of the country the case is handled in, mainly the problem will be if a valid contract is perceived to have been made, chatlogs might just not be enough to constitute a binding contract

Maybe imagine a situation in which you go alone to a car dealer in the USA close to the mexican border with the money as cash in your pocket.
The car dealer has a partner on his side while talking to you, you agree on a car and seal the contract by handsale.
Now they take the cash, laugh you in the face while they enter the car and drive across the mexican border.

The problem is not that either the USA or Mexican laws are not clear about theft.
The problem is that 2 countries are involved and any possible evidence might be pretty slim or even hold against you.


But all this should not speak against the investment of the original thread.
Just invest what you can afford to lose and you might even have some nice profit.

well, i don't have much more to add, except maybe that the issues you point out are regulations for theft, but not specifically related to funds. so, these points would equally apply to any pvp trade inside EU.

when people gives me a donation for the chipping tool (shameless plug ), can they go to the police and claim that it was theft because they gave me cash in a pvp trade and i did not give them any "item" in return???.... hope not!! )


but in the other thread, the discussion started because it was claimed that RL laws for RL funds would apply to EU funds in some aspects.

i doubted that would be the case, because an EU fund most probably does not even meet the requirements to be considered "a fund". an EU fund, when seen from outside, is nothing more than a set of pvp trades (to give cash to the fund holder, and to collect interests) without any legal binding between them.

The EULA states that all virtual items are the property of MA.

This being the case then how can a theft take place within EU?
MindArk can't steal from itself, can it? It's not your items/funds you are transfering to other players, its you transfering funds on behalf of mindark to mindark.

As for virtual currency, what happens if the USD becomes so weak that MindArk decide to change the exchange rate from 1:10 to 1:100? If I have invested 1000 PED in some investment fund within the game does the investment fund then owe me the 1000 PED I invested or 10000 PED because the exchange rate has changed?

I realise that this is never likely to happen but, from a legal standpoint, what if it did?

Darkstar72 said:

The EULA states that all virtual items are the property of MA.

This being the case then how can a theft take place within EU?
MindArk can't steal from itself, can it? It's not your items/funds you are transfering to other players, its you transfering funds on behalf of mindark to mindark.

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I am not an expert in legal matters at all, this is just my approach by logic.
With what you are right is that if for example I transfer a Nallo Lamp to you,
what happens is that property of Mindark will in Entropia just switch owners.
If you gave me something for it we made a valid deal in EU.

But here comes the fun into the game.

Depending on your countries laws you can make a contract about pretty much everything.
Like taking a dog for a walk for half a million dollars.

So nothing prohibits us from making a contract about the virtual representations within EU even if they are property of Mindark, because we both use them on the same terms of service by Mindark.

The problem is the provableness of the contract and I don't see any way else than a contract on paper at the moment for this.

Darkstar72 said:

As for virtual currency, what happens if the USD becomes so weak that MindArk decide to change the exchange rate from 1:10 to 1:100? If I have invested 1000 PED in some investment fund within the game does the investment fund then owe me the 1000 PED I invested or 10000 PED because the exchange rate has changed?

I realise that this is never likely to happen but, from a legal standpoint, what if it did?

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If MA would do such a thing everyone would be treated the same.
So to keep such a step legal they would need to multiply all peds and TT values by 10.
This would ofc make your 1000 peds to 10000 peds,
but if MA would go any different about this I believe you would have other troubles than the investment fund money