Stamina - Skill decay - activity bonus.

it is all done in the name of 'activity level!'



or wait, i wasnt' reading, is this an amp thread?

I like your thinking Blackhawk,

Though this concept would cause a massive uproar by those who chip-invest-in into skills and also those who are semi-casual or periodical players.

You would see a mass exodus of participants from the participant base if there were to be any form of decay of skills (loss of investment qty), other than those loses (10%) resulting from extraction to sell/trade.

Sparkz

PS. You have come up with some great ideas as of late.

Jimmy B said:

But then all your skills will decay

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Only down to roughly zero. And chatter skills are free.

Lavawalker said:

I like your thinking Blackhawk,

Though this concept would cause a massive uproar by those who chip-invest-in into skills and also those who are semi-casual or periodical players.

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So what do you like about the idea then?

You would see a mass exodus of participants from the participant base if there were to be any form of decay of skills (loss of investment qty), other than those loses (10%) resulting from extraction to sell/trade.

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And you still like the idea?

Sparkz

PS. You have come up with some great ideas as of late.

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Yeah, this was a real wopper too!

Jimmy B said:

I reckon BlackHawk was just feeling the community has been a bit at odds with each other recently, so came up with this way to bring us all together on an issue.

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And is working. So much love in here.

P.S. I got 4 +rep and 3 -rep in here. I wana turn red. You give no help...

BlackHawk said:

P.S. I got 4 +rep and 3 -rep in here. I wana turn red. You give no help...

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Just buy all the Marber Bravos off auction and sell em here for 5k start bid...

dbelinfante said:

So what do you like about the idea then?
And you still like the idea?
Yeah, this was a real wopper too!

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I did not say I liked or disliked his idea/concept,
I merely stated I liked his thinking.

I think the breakdown I gave was pretty clear and points out as to why this would *not* be such a good idea.

It does not however mean I like or dislike the idea/concept,
I have a neutral stance.

All input into thought-storming and ideas creation is good,
Much better than no creative input.

I will never knock a person for making an attempt to make an addition to this creative pool of ideas & concepts wether it be good or not so good.

Sparkz

EarlVonKippler said:

this thread sucks. MA has a tendacy to listen to the terrible costly ideas of some posters, but not the intelligent game play suggestion of others. even if one bad idea is posted and twenty great ideas are posted, we always get the bad idea implemented. this thread sucks.

one of the biggest things about entropia (for me) is that when i stop playing for a month or two, or even just slow down, i don't suffer. if i was playing a pay-per-month i would be losing out if i wasn't active 24/7. in entropia i choose my involvement level.

oh, and for people under 100 in professoin rate, imo, skills DO count. at least they still do for me. also, i doubt seriously that i gain more than 5% of my skill monthly anyway. i would be loosing so much so fast, god i wish you'd have kept your keyboard closed and not posted this stupid, stupid thread.

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Ill second all of this. Are you reading my mind

EarlVonKippler said:

one of the biggest things about entropia (for me) is that when i stop playing for a month or two, or even just slow down, i don't suffer. if i was playing a pay-per-month i would be losing out if i wasn't active 24/7. in entropia i choose my involvement level.

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This is indeed one of the biggest things. Not sure if is the best thing. It does not feel right to stay away for few months and when you come back to be as strong or even stronger than when you stopped. Note that they have a big problem with skills and one option is to put some more skill "nerf's" or to implement skill decay.

EarlVonKippler said:

oh, and for people under 100 in professoin rate, imo, skills DO count. at least they still do for me. also, i doubt seriously that i gain more than 5% of my skill monthly anyway. i would be loosing so much so fast, god i wish you'd have kept your keyboard closed and not posted this stupid, stupid thread.

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I never said that skills don't count. And I never said that the decay should be 5% of that skill, but 5% of the lowest contribution in any of the professions. In most cases is under 10% or equal with 10%. So the decay will end up at 0.5% maximum for most skills. Problem is with skills that have more than 10% contribution, such as rifle, but that can be capped at 10%, so maximum decay would be 0.5%.


If I am to choose between a new skill nerf and skill decay implementation, I would choose skill decay any day. One of the two has to happen, we like it or not. The system is flawed and needs to be fixed. Skill nerf even if is accompanied by introduction of new items for different skill levels does nothing else but discourage many potential players. It affects in a bad way only noobs. On the other hand, skill decay would affect all people in the same way and it would make it more "fair"

Then the implementation of stamina will allow you to reduce the decay so much, that you practically can end up not loosing any skills at higher levels. I suppose it can be implemented that way.

My suggestion was to implement the decay once a month, but a proportional % can be applied daily and it would make the effect of decay unnoticeable.

Note that a player with 5000 skill points would lose maximum 25 points. One with 10k would lose maximum 50 points. At a high level, it is a lot. But then again, if you have 10k in a skill, you may consider skilling stamina in order to reduce that decay to a level where is no longer a problem. If level 60 stamina would allow to reduce 40% of decay, at level 10k you will lose 30 points. And so on. So the stamina skill will be very important. Skilling natural will be more important. Chipping will be expensive if done at low level of stamina.
Then again, at level 200 stamina, the decay would be 0 on all skills. This could be the goal to reach. A uber would become the one that is no longer affected by decay. That may only happen in few years, but... is better than a new skill nerf that will make people hate the game.

So the best would be no skil nerf and no skill decay?

Why are pushing for it so much blackhawk? You know something we don't
Or you just feel skill nerf incoming??

Skill are the only thing that don't decay in EU, why ffs you want us to pay more instead of less??

Sometimes the only way for me not to "go down the tubes" in this universe is simply not to play. So you wanna make it so if I play I lose and if I don't play I lose? Or is it the other way around?

BlackHawk said:

I was thinking of the fact that skills in EU have a problem. They go up and up and up and the process never stops. Then MA to counter this fact, will implement different skill nerfes that make all people happy. On the other hand, skills no longer reflect the activity in game, but they reflect how much one is decided to invest in skills. Attributes are not a good indication of a character involvement in a profession, because in different moment of time was easier or harder to get them.
...

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cynically speaking:that would benefit ONLY players who already can in long term profit from hunting.. aka mostly old-timers with eco gear.. they could afford losing little skill time to time and getting it back with MM-s,imp2870-s or impMK2-s would do little harm if any..

casual folk would need to deposit EVEN MORE for progress since hunting goes even more expensive.. and hell, its very expensive as it is already
I can see why someone with Modified Mercenary could wish it.. already existing big advantage over majority of others gets additional insurance

I wonder why didnt you offer opposite solution.. yes sklling before skillnerf was faster..not right compared to newcomers... why shouldnt players from pre VU8 get their basic attributes simply divided by 2 and all the skills nerfed 50%.. That action would lose superskilled players completely and problem would be gone
btw, I have nothing personal against threadstarter

FaustPL said:

So the best would be no skil nerf and no skill decay?

Why are pushing for it so much blackhawk? You know something we don't
Or you just feel skill nerf incoming??

Skill are the only thing that don't decay in EU, why ffs you want us to pay more instead of less??

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Look at the system. A skill nerf will come again at some point. And another one. And another one. If nothing is done to solve the real problem. And the problem is that skills are never consumed. The problem with skill nerfs is not the fact that skilling is harder. But the fact that it gives unfair advantage to those that skilled before the nerf. Anyway... unfair is a hard word. Better said a clear advantage.

In EU you don't pay for skills, unless you chip them. You get them for free. If you lose ore make profit in an activity... is a different storry and skills have something to say about your chance to profit, but only if your skills are relevant. If we all have similar skill level, skill will not be important in determining your chance of success in a profession.

Instead of skill decay, maybe introduce old age to avatars - after 5 years they croak it and die .

Seriously though this idea is as bad as it gets IMO, and if ever implimented will cause a mass exodus.

FaustPL said:

Why are pushing for it so much blackhawk? You know something we don't
Or you just feel skill nerf incoming??

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Don't get paranoid on us FaustPL , it will be a long time before 20%+ of the player base reach the 17.5k+ skill quota's required to make a nerf/extension to cap levels feasible.

I can not see any participant reaching 175+ profession level in the next couple of years, even Stryker if he went completely nuts (or Blackhawk for that matter) for a good 12 months skilling.

The hardcore everyday skillers only make up a very small percentage of our participant base. Less than 10%. (Not referring to just the ubers, but all the hardcore everyday skill as much as you can before requiring sleep participants)

Sparkz

while we're at it, i'd wish modmercs to permadecay..every click they'd loose 1 point max dmg or so. perfect solution for hyperinflation and would motivate people to use other stuff too like ep16 or so

BlackHawk said:

Look at the system. A skill nerf will come again at some point. And another one. And another one.

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Not sure about that, I don't think there's a need for any more. There's a very broad range of avatars, I don't see any convergence of a large proportion of avatars having too high skills or anything like that.

I play quite a lot by most people's standards and in about 3 years I have reached lvl 55 in my top profession. Not many people can afford the time required to skill themselves 8+ hours a day to reach lvl 100 in a short time, and most of those who can can't afford the top of the range equipment that'll help them get there.

I don't see a problem with the current system.

BlackHawk said:

If we all have similar skill level, skill will not be important in determining your chance of success in a profession.

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Firstly, we'll never all have similar skill level. Secondly your chance of success has never been just about skills.

BlackHawk said:

But the fact that it gives unfair advantage to those that skilled before the nerf. Anyway... unfair is a hard word. Better said a clear advantage.

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I can live with the skill advantage they have. However, what makes the goal of competing with them impossible is that there's no way to match the effectiveness of the mod and imp faps that no longer drop.

The L faps are nice, but they'll never compete with 160 heal for 1 pec. A comparable L version would cost what, 18 pec per click plus markup?

Jimmy B said:

...I play quite a lot by most people's standards and in about 3 years I have reached lvl 55 in my top profession. Not many people can afford the time required to skill themselves 8+ hours a day to reach lvl 100 in a short time, and most of those who can can't afford the top of the range equipment that'll help them get there.

I don't see a problem with the current system...

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The only problem with the system in respect of skills is people who use bots to skill 24/7 or people rich enough to chip up everything so they can act all big around the ones who play the game (pvp-ing miners in non-lootable pvp and that sort of thing ("Su")).

Bots are supposed to be against the EULA; and while I won't bitch about people who have the rl resources to chip themselves to Uber, I do feel they miss out on a hell of a lot of the game.

Maybe a tax on deposits for everyone who puts in more than $20k would solve this

Or then again, why not just add more upper levels to the game? Mobs that class lvl 5000 evade and full Angel as a tasty between meal snack?

steffel said:

while we're at it, i'd wish modmercs to permadecay..every click they'd loose 1 point max dmg or so. perfect solution for hyperinflation and would motivate people to use other stuff too like ep16 or so

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yeah people who use guns above 2.75 dam/pec should loose their skills and people who use guns below that should win skills

a group of player profit with loot+markup /but loose skills
the other group loose money but win skills

Chimp said:

Or then again, why not just add more upper levels to the game? Mobs that class lvl 5000 evade and full Angel as a tasty between meal snack?

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that is of course the best way to addrss the ever increasing skill problem, make somthing bigger and nastier. its better all round as it challenges high skilled players, providing incentive to stay active when they might other wise feel they've done it all.

aridash said:

that is of course the best way to addrss the ever increasing skill problem, make somthing bigger and nastier. its better all round as it challenges high skilled players, providing incentive to stay active when they might other wise feel they've done it all.

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Word !

not just taking the easy route of boosting mobs regen rate...

Chimp said:

The only problem with the system in respect of skills is people who use bots to skill 24/7 or people rich enough to chip up everything so they can act all big around the ones who play the game (pvp-ing miners in non-lootable pvp and that sort of thing ("Su")).

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Well, I don't think its bad that people can buy their way in. It brings in money, and means other people can sell skills to keep them playing.

As to botting, obviously that is an issue for MA to ensure doesn't happen.

But there will always be people who can skill faster than the majority of us. Look at Sodi's 24 hour hunt with mod merc. For the average player he gained well over a month's skills in a day. Doesn't mean there was anything wrong with that.

There'll always be someone bigger, stronger, faster. The main thing is the system is always such that everyone can improve on their own scale, and avatars of every skill level can compete in their own way and have means to progress.

Jimmy B said:

Well, I don't think its bad that people can buy their way in. It brings in money, and means other people can sell skills to keep them playin...

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Nope, generally speaking I'd agree...eaten a few chips myself.

Just think you miss a great deal if you stuff your face with them.

The One said:

i would say this is the main reason standing behind BlackHawk's idea (if i'm not very wrong understanding him):
Originally Posted by BlackHawk
...But if you think deeper, you see that the effect on the community will be positive after such a change. People would be motivated to play. At all levels...

and we all have to admit that - pushing people to play - would be a good thing, with positive effect for everybody...

BUT:

i wont even bother to analyse and evaluate IF and/or HOW, this "Skill decay" method would motivate ppl to play... because, although improving the "activity" in EU may be a very good goal, IT IS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY...!!! (almost) any 'activity' in EU costs money... and we (well... most of us...) are paying those money to 'participate' in this virtual universe, RCE, game... or whatever EU is named; consequently, someone (MA) earns good money to provide the environment, including the features to attract/encourage ppl to play...

again: a better level of 'activity' would be indeed a very good thing to happen... (in the end, more 'activity' --> more money spent ingame --> bigger lootpool --> and last but not least better prizes for 'deserving' ones... errr... i should have said 'for everybody', isn't it?)... but, more 'activity' should be an induced option rather then an enforced one... put some more FUN (whatever that FUN would mean) into the environment and that would encourage ppl - especially new ppl - to have 'activity'... respectively to spend money here

any solid documented analysis, (and even an educated guess) would show that milking further the current active playerbase already had its CAP and it is no longer an valid option... in order to increase the "global economy value" (depending on who reads this, it may be "lootpool" or "income"), we all (and especially the 'harvesters') should better think about some ways to add 2-3k more participants into the universe rather then trying to force the existing 2-3ks to spend more...

and finally, since the "Skill decay" would be nothing else but a new tax on current active playerbase (a tax for non-activity... lol)... i really doubt on it's real "benefits"...

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Sirhc said:

Great post +rep.

If the initial intent of the OP was to motivate people I can think of many many other ways MA could motivate people. I mean really MA and any one who has spent time in PE/EU can think back to instances where participation was through the roof. Events, special item drops, Version Updates, new implementation of professions or branching out a profession like texturing. All of those lead to more activity and more participation. Certain nerfs or added taxes IMO lead to a down turn in activity. Tailoring and rare clothes prices took a nose dive after the equip tax and while texturing and more colors makes it a bit more interesting I still don't see many people taking off their armor or changing clothes very often.

I am more willing to tell my friends and try to get them to participate if I looted a great item or a big TT value loot. Knowing something like that is possible will perk their interest. Telling them if they don't play for a week thier hard earned skills will eventually deteriorate well..................they won't even bother trying EU.

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I absolutely agree with both posts:

1. There are MANY ways (a LOT more pleasant ) to try and make people more active (see many of the previous posts).

2. There are MANY ways (a LOT more pleasant ) to make use for Stamina (see many of the previous posts).

BlackHawk said:

... In EU you don't pay for skills, unless you chip them. You get them for free...

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Which game/RCE/Virtual Economy/Casino/job are we talking about here man?
I might not be a very smart person, but the way I see it, the ONLY free skills are from sweating.
One of the two: you either play a different game/etc. or you operate at a much higher level than most.

No offense Hawk, but I simply don't understand (at least not fully) why this would benefit the players.

To me, it sounds like he wants to build in a MA version of Ahzheimer's.

man... you guys are jumping all over the dude.

I am not too sure if it is a good idea...but I like his thinking of a new angle. I don't think you guys really understand what he is getting at.

What good is it, if you have 10,000 in ever skill, but the rest of the game is so nerfed that they are effectively worthless to you?

No matter what system is in place, MA will have to make sure that the average player spends more than they profit.... they are not a charity. (in another thread we can discuss whether or not MA has the average player spending way too much).

But the point is, that if skills have any beneficial effect, and they keep going up, and we never die, then at some point, MA MUST nerf things or just go out of business.

Now, his idea may not be balanced for people of different play styles. And this is complicated by the fact that EU is pretty simple, compared to other skill based VUs....where skills open up new vehicles and weapons, etc. In EU, it is mostly that skills let you use things a bit more efficiently...towards a goal of making peds. But they can never let the majorit achieve this....unless they find some other complimentary revenue stream (ads, investing player deposits low risk investment funds, etc).

His idea is simply to keep the game from continuing to go crazy with nerfs. If it keeps up...expect soon to have:

Mob with armor
Mobs with faps
Mobs that not only run faster, but get vehicles to chase us with
New armor parts to guard elbows, groins, and pinkys.
Oh, yea...they won't drop much of those either
1 ped to put your hat on
10 ped to put your armor on
Mobs that kill you get to loot your gear
We all run like we are loaded, when we are not
Log in charge of 10 ped
etc

Well, if skills keep going up...and if they actually do something, then this is where we will be in a few years

So cut the guy some slack... he is trying to help. Who cares if we lose half our skills... if they are twice as effective because MA un-nerfs some of the game mechanics. The whole game is about trying to keep the hope alive that you too can be a Weener. If things are too hard, they will losen it a bit to keep players comming.

If things are too easy, they don't make money. I wonder if the 'balancing manager' is more concerned with this balance, than how much belkar is in circulation.

The thing that atracted me to PE from the start was that if I ever wish to be one year or more away from the game I could do it with no penalties.

The propositions of the thread starter are absurd
just for the simple fact that they will give the top players even a greater advantadge over the casual players.
Or even worse than this they would break the dream that fuels UE which is geting to an higher level because things then will get better.
A casual player couldn't compete and just would go away and play other games where in 3 weeks they get to maximum level possible and afterwards they fight to gain just small edges.
I fact in some of them you gain more skills doing stuff if previously you were innactive; in other games everybody gains the same ammount of skills no matter what they do, they could be 24 hours online that it wouldn't increase the level gained over somebody that logs once a month for 20 minutes.
ANd both of the examples are made of current blockbusters games.

People play games to have fun, if you're are unhappy with your current skill level don't come with ideas how to make everything worse for most of the people ingame.

Because to them unlike what it seems to be the case of some people, to get skills it cost them a lot of real life money.

And from now on I will neg rep everybody that considers the proposition viable and a sucessfull away to attract more clients since that isn't true. (Unless they give substantial arguments to justify their option)

Fade said:

His idea is simply to keep the game from continuing to go crazy with nerfs. If it keeps up...expect soon to have:

Mob with armor
Mobs with faps

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What is the problem with this ?
And they already exist in EU.
For your information the RX units have that.
ANd I believe that it is in MA idea to introduce this from the very begining ?

I don't care that a mob has armor or uses faps what I care is that the game is balanced so that if I hunt one of those the
loot is good enough to pay my costs (with maybe a little less to cover the expenses of the fun I'll be getting)

To the thread starter.

Are you nuts? Skill = Peds = Real life cash. Now what the hell is wrong with my money sitting there and not use? Why do we have to pay for the our money sitting in a piggy bank (it may not earn interest but not going to lose it face value overtime).

Man you play too much EU, need to take a break from it.

The way you go, soon all our items sitting in storage decay by them self too if not in use one every 24 hours.

I've re-read the opening post again, and my conclusion is that if the skills had been a problem before the last balance - then the best answer would have been to give high skilled players the equivalent tt value of skills that they had before the changes. - i.e they would no longer be maxed out on their equipment. Also if maxing out weapons was a problem then why introduce (L) weapons easily maxed?
As for the idea of "making" people active this is a non-starter from the get go. This to most people is a way to spend free time, not to feel forced to log in every day.
As for rebalancing in the future maybe it will happen, but with the current skill slowdowns the average player (if he stays for that long) would take years to max out 1 profession - or of course a hefty investment. Just look at how long it is taking Pham to chip out just to sell his skills, now imagine having to gain that skill playing with current constraints - i believe that the current state of play will prevent a crisis in the distant future.


Norb

Afterthought - a better way to use stamina would be the requirement to eat within the world to keep stamina high, without sustainance the effectiveness of skills would be reduced according to how much food (tax) the avatar has consumed.... i don't really like this idea either but this would make more sense to keep people "active" - if your avatar is well fed then you would not want to waste the food.