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Where is our money?

MA is doomed again? 5th time this week it seems. I'll fire off a small post don't have the heart for good hard work right now.

Few businesses keep a large amount of cash that does nothing, they usually invest in other things.
MA won't make a whole lot of money from adding mod faps.
When a bank loans money to someone, that person generally doesn't deposit it into a different bank account, they usually spend it :) trickle down effect maybe puts some of it back in the banks.
If everyone withdrew their money all at once, they would be okay, A. your money is worth 5% less than when you deposited(going in 9.5peds to the dollar, 10 peds to get a dollar out) and B. They would liquidate assets to get the cash, or take a loan out themselves.
 
Dagata said:
MA is doomed again? 5th time this week it seems. I'll fire off a small post don't have the heart for good hard work right now.

Few businesses keep a large amount of cash that does nothing, they usually invest in other things.
MA won't make a whole lot of money from adding mod faps.
When a bank loans money to someone, that person generally doesn't deposit it into a different bank account, they usually spend it :) trickle down effect maybe puts some of it back in the banks.
If everyone withdrew their money all at once, they would be okay, A. your money is worth 5% less than when you deposited(going in 9.5peds to the dollar, 10 peds to get a dollar out) and B. They would liquidate assets to get the cash, or take a loan out themselves.
Click to expand...

There would be a lot of things to say on the previous posts as a lot of people do not understand how a bank works.
In a few words: a bank has always more financial assets that deposits. The assets can, of course, be illiquid like loans, but they always have more that liabilities. If depositors start to take out their money, banks can borrow from other banks (or in last ressort from the central bank) back on the value of their assets. The most common form of such borrowings are called "repo".
In normal environment, banks don't even need to have any cash in theory because they can borrow extremely quickly from others based on the value of their assets.

Now what is the difference with MA? MA has no real assets aside cash/short term investments they are making. The only thing they have are capitalized past development costs, i.e. intangible (immaterial) assets, and a few assets (their computers and coffee machines) which have marginal value.
Contrary to a bank which always have more assets than liabilities, MA has more liabilities than assets. This means that, should they recognized the players assets as liabilities in their accounts, they would be bankrupted.
I work in a bank and I guarantee not a bank in the world would lend them a penny if they cash runned out (but maybe some big investors like ND would to avoid loosing their own in-game investment)

Now the reality is that, based on the EULA, players in-game assets belong to them anyway, so there are no problem. It's just that players will never be able to all withdraw if they wanted too, which is not very healthy for the game. It requires a constant in-flow of new money in the game to pay out the one who withdraw. I won't tell you how it is called but you can ask an expert in the field: Bernie Madoff

NB: Rethinking about it, I'm actually wondering if the "contigent liability" they declare is actually the deposits in the last 6 months that they may be obligated to refund according to the EULA.
 
coubo said:
maybe because they say there are a place where you "deposit" money?
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i could mention other things that i might "deposit", it doesnt make the place i do so a bank.
:bomb:


(shame, seems joke fell flat.)
 
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aridash said:
i could mention other things that i might "deposit", it doesnt make the place i do so a bank.
:bomb:
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chill out. not hard feelings about this.
I don't want/need Mind Ark to be as safe as a bank. I don't care if they are a bank or not

I would just like them to start considering more seriously the fiduciary responsibility they have toward players in their so called economy. You can say, "EULA", "it's legally their money" etc... I agree but that would be good practice for FPC to maintain a permanent cash guarantee on in-game asset value (at tt, of course). Thus players have the certainty they can withdraw at any time, which they don't have today.
(we have actually the certainty of the opposite, if everyone submit a withdrawal request of their in-game funds today, then we will only ever get a small part of the value, if anything)
 
coubo said:
chill out. not hard feelings about this.
I don't want/need Mind Ark to be as safe as a bank. I don't care if they are a bank or not

I would just like them to start considering more seriously the fiduciary responsibility they have toward players in their so called economy. You can say, "EULA", "it's legally their money" etc... I agree but that would be good practice for FPC to maintain a permanent cash guarantee on in-game asset value (at tt, of course). Thus players have the certainty they can withdraw at any time, which they don't have today.
(we have actually the certainty of the opposite, if everyone submit a withdrawal request of their in-game funds today, then we will only ever get a small part of the value, if anything)
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Ok...

If people are barely intelligent enough to not make a run on a bank, which IS a place where one's deposits are guaranteed and promised to be returned, because somehow people understand this is a very bad idea.. Why would people be so amazingly stupid as to make a run on MA who is very much NOT a bank and create a self-fullfilling prophecy where people WILL lose their money?

Morons... life is full of them. :rolleyes:

-Remmie
 
Dagata said:
MA is doomed again? 5th time this week it seems. I'll fire off a small post don't have the heart for good hard work right now.

Few businesses keep a large amount of cash that does nothing, they usually invest in other things.
MA won't make a whole lot of money from adding mod faps.
When a bank loans money to someone, that person generally doesn't deposit it into a different bank account, they usually spend it :) trickle down effect maybe puts some of it back in the banks.
If everyone withdrew their money all at once, they would be okay, A. your money is worth 5% less than when you deposited(going in 9.5peds to the dollar, 10 peds to get a dollar out) and B. They would liquidate assets to get the cash, or take a loan out themselves.
Click to expand...

How do they spend it?

Even if they use that 'loan' to buy candy, the money will go into the manufacturer, and it will go to their bank accounts (which belong to other banks) :). Whatever you spend, the money will go back to other banks for sure. Unless you keep it in your wallet forever.
 
Remmie said:
Ok...

If people are barely intelligent enough to not make a run on a bank, which IS a place where one's deposits are guaranteed and promised to be returned, because somehow people understand this is a very bad idea.. Why would people be so amazingly stupid as to make a run on MA who is very much NOT a bank and create a self-fullfilling prophecy where people WILL lose their money?

Morons... life is full of them. :rolleyes:

-Remmie
Click to expand...

So according to your theory, ponzi schemes should never collapse because it's in nobody's interest to break them down? Interesting concept. Reality is a bit different though.

At some point, people realize that they get their money if they withdraw first and nothing if they wait and other people withdraw before them. That's called the prisoner dilemma in game theory.
 
coubo said:
So according to your theory, ponzi schemes should never collapse because it's in nobody's interest to break them down? Interesting concept. Reality is a bit different though.

At some point, people realize that they get their money if they withdraw first and nothing if they wait and other people withdraw before them. That's called the prisoner dilemma in game theory.
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Actually wrong, Ponzi schemes belong in a completely different category for simple reasons.

1- Ponzi schemes are based on a limited return but higher than average percentage return on investment and the only option through which someone would withdraw what they had deposited is if they back out completely. You either accept the fictitious claims of "we made you 20% this year!" or you pull out completely, nothing in between. In the case of banks one can withdraw all they have deposited and this is fine, the only problem would result if everyone wanted to pull ALL their money out, normal activities of depositing and withdrawing at any levels allow for a stable continuance and everyone gets their money. In the case of MA you can withdraw any amount INCLUDING significantly more that you deposited and again the only problem that would result would be if everyone all withdraw everything at the same time, which leads to the much greater point and that is

2- Banks and MA would/will fail because people mass panic and create a self fullfilling prophecy. Ponzi schemes have no chance of financial success or long term existence, are purely short term and either end with everyone's money in the Ponzi pocket or with when the scheme is found and the authorities shut it down automatically creating the "run on the bank" scenario. Ponzi schemes are a "rob Peter to pay Paul just enough money that Paul doesn't realize I'm stealing from him to pay Peter just enough money so that..", there is no one getting all their money back, no one getting more than their money back... other than the Ponzi.


-Remmie
 
Hi reading this post i was a little shocked we all know (suspect) that the implementation of cryenzine, extra employee's, cost way to much money, and all that money comes out off the loot pool.
Reading true some other forums I was even more shocked because they were all complaining over there, over our beloved game. ( i have removed names of the other forums and games because of censor here)
Reactions like below and others i will not post,

People wake up



Quote 1: Yes but the difference from Entropia forums and here is that we aren't censored to talk about other RCE's. Our devs are confident we are the best, unlike EU so in return they censor. I find every right in watching our competition slowly failing and killing itself as we all watch and say I told you so =P


Quote 2: Such kind of disrespect will be their fall. For all I care they can keep all the peds I depped the last years, I don't even want them returned as I consider them to be dishonored, I'm already happy I'm able to escape to a far superior world. And I'll be sure to support xx CENSORED xx devs in a million more ways as this devs prove they listen. This kind of interaction is gold.


Quote 3: EU biggest problem is that to many people eat and live from earnings of game.
And then i not talking about the hand full of avatars (resellers) that make indeed some money to play free but devolpers and partners that all have to pay bills for real life.

Life cost much, also in Sweden.

Quote 4: They don't care for anyone. I still believe some avatars to be on MA payroll playing masquerade with the rest of the community.
They have never been honest - neither in communication as in developping - for as long as I can remember, and I have been playing for quite some time

Quote 5: they're already switching to CE2 for over a year, most of what MA says and any related timelines is pure crap.
Maybe expensive, but if you see what Dedicated Logic can push out of Torque, compatible with way more platforms I'd say they should have left all that cash where it belonged ... the lootpool.
 
Im not concerned.The few remaining skills still on me are in auction as we speak. Im well ahead of the curve.And skills are dropping in price like crazy.
 
Remmie said:
Actually wrong, Ponzi schemes belong in a completely different category for simple reasons.

1- Ponzi schemes are based on a limited return but higher than average percentage return on investment and the only option through which someone would withdraw what they had deposited is if they back out completely. You either accept the fictitious claims of "we made you 20% this year!" or you pull out completely, nothing in between. -Remmie
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1. Your definition of ponzi scheme is too narrow. A ponzi scheme is just an arrangement whereby you use to pay withdrawals with new money injected because you don't actually have this money. Returns are not involved (but usually are in practice because it's easier to attract funds when you promise high returns)

Banks have specific capital rules that prevent them to be "ponzi schemes"-like (they have to maintain assets at a certain level above deposits at all time).

2. On bank vs. MA, run on the bank etc.., I have written a lot already but apparently you don't understand (or don't want to)
 
You know , to be honest I have not read every post in this thread, but I have read enough to get a synopsis of the mood here. So let me take a moment to bring this back into perspective.

1. Thanks for dragging the real world doom and gloom into my happy little GAME !:mad:

2. It is just that.. a game.. enjoy it , love it , like it .. or quit !

3. If you were "playing" this game to make money ....bad idea !

4. This game is no more than putting coins in a slot machine , if you do it for the money. As I stated in another post " When you are gambling at a casino...the house ALWAYS wins" eventually.:(

5. Never spend money on things that you cannot afford to lose.

6. Everything has its share of risks..this is no different.

At the present I cannot think of any other cliches to throw at this , but I think you al get the point. Sure, we would all like to make money playing this game...is that realistic? No!

As for the question of MA counting deposits as income....what else would they use as income? I mean use common logic..its a virtual world game with a r/w economy. If the players don't deposit ,there is no income...thus no virtual world !

Sometimes we all get jaded, and sucked into more drama than necessary . But please try to remember that this is a GAME...enjoy it. Dont bet the family fortune on that next Trox HOF.. because in reality we all know how that ends.

Sorry for raving , but Im sick to death of bad news.

Tarpon
 
coubo said:
1. Your definition of ponzi scheme is too narrow. A ponzi scheme is just an arrangement whereby you use to pay withdrawals with new money injected because you don't actually have this money. Returns are not involved (but usually are in practice because it's easier to attract funds when you promise high returns)

Banks have specific capital rules that prevent them to be "ponzi schemes"-like (they have to maintain assets at a certain level above deposits at all time).

2. On bank vs. MA, run on the bank etc.., I have written a lot already but apparently you don't understand (or don't want to)
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*gives up

Bottom line, you like playing, continue to do so. You don't, find something else to complain about.

-Remmie
 
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