Entropia = not gambling? (lotteriinspektionen)

aridash · Jun 21, 2009

Profit said:
PED doesn't have variable value, it's fixed to USD. Your arguement doesn't apply.

again, why does the fixed nature make any difference (and the value isnt fixed to any other currency including Swedish Krona), and secondly how does this reconcile with ammo which is also in loot but fixed exchange to ped/$.

Trux said:
well, after many years of shiny coins in loot-window, they removed them just in time for their first inspection..

i cannot remember any broader based request for that by the comunity.. not even a tiny bit, compared to some things requested for ages and still not touched..

really? when did they make their first inspection then, because until this thread we had no confirmed information that they had at all, just assumption. There wasnt a groundswell of opinon on it, but people did sugget coins where "unrealistic" and wanted more animal parts in loot for crafting. What oils in loot did coincide with was a whole range of new BP to use them. I will also observe that mining never had peds in loot, nor did crafting (that i recollect?).

Legion · Jun 21, 2009

Profit said:
First I'd like to make an observation;
The majority of people who say that tracker stats don't matter, don't have good tracker stats. I use tracker to see if the person I'm enquiring about gets globals, not to see if they're profiting. One reason for this, is any genuinely experienced person in EU, has globals, whereas the opposite is true for amateurs (note; 5 years of sweating doesn't allow the experience that 6months intense participation in the 3 major professions does). I am not interested in hearing from amateurs as they lack experience.

Now...
Given your knowledge of mining, it's only natural to expect your tracker to show you hitting big, unless like I said you don't amp in an attempt to hide your knowledge of the system - however this is nullified as you emailed MA with your "knowledge" and intention to share, so one can only draw the conclusion that you don't use amps because you lack confidence in your own system. That, or you do use amps, fail miserably, then make up excuses as to why your system does actually work, except for when you try to prove it.
Both seem viable explanations.

"Where are the minis/globals most often found in mining? If u know this..."
If you know this, you'd be getting on tracker more often. Also you'd use amps to maximise your claims, in turn increasing your tracker presence. But this doesn't happen in your case, which I find contradictive to your claims (not mining claims, theory claims).

"As for knowing where ubers will pop up and at what time. Yes that i know, i cant exactly predict the day but i can predict the time it will happen with +-1 hour roughly. A lot easier on certain mobs though."
I find this interesting and very easy to test. Simply post the time and mob that will uber next (following your next post). Will you do it? Maybe... Will you be correct? Time will tell.
Reading over this statement a second time, I find something perplexing - you state "As for knowing where ubers will pop up and at what time. Yes that i know" yet you follow with "i cant exactly predict the day". How can you guess the time, without the day? They're one in the same, are they not? Days and weeks, is but an extension of minutes and hours. Perplexing.
As I said, name a time/mob and we'll see if you're right. Just don't claim success if it happens 3 weeks from now because "1200 MA time Atrox" is just tooooo broad and not a calculated estimate at all.

Finally...
"And also, please learn to use proper language." - from the guy that talks about "biorhythms" in a game, this is hilarious! So I will assume you meant my use of the colloquial term for excrement. I said sorry, harden up!

In conclusion, I'll quote something I said towards the beginning of this post;
"I am not interested in hearing from amateurs as they lack experience."
You are an amateur, with serious dellusional issues.
Don't take it personally, I hate all people who make stuff up in an attempt to be recognised in an area they are not rightfully entitled to recognition for.

'

Your calling me an amateur? I been playing EU since commercial open trial, first 2 years i played 12-16 hours a DAY! Also i cracked MA's timer once before although i think it was bugged that time and i take what MA did during 2 months after they found out as proof that i did crack it. So amateur no not really.

AS for globals, depending a bit on what i do i usually get 2-5 Globals a day depending on how much i play.

And knowledge does not guarantee one to hit big. Even if using amps. Also to make use of my mining theory now when i'm as skilled as i am i have to use amps to make it work. Why i wont say though as that would give it away of how the theory works. But no at the moment i dont mine at all, i spend my peds on upgrades and went hunting instead as i got a bit bored of mining.

It's quite common knowledge where minis/globals happen in mining actually. But does it guarantee globals? nooo again.

What i meant by prediction the ubers i meant what time and place, ie for example it will come between 22.00- 23.00 for example, but the day i cant predict as that depends on how much the mob is hunted.

As for biorythm i have explained what i mean by it and it's a efenition i use as it works like a biorythm irl.

Trux · Jun 21, 2009

Ace Flyster said:
..

Anyways back on topic, evidently the people that believe EU is gambling can apply the same logic to everything they do in RL, so kind of a pointless argument. And i love the argument......"you have a chance of getting loot...therefore PE is gambling"

Come on guys, you have a chance of EVERTHING in life!!!

EU is not gambling according to swedish gambling laws!

EU is a "gamble" like everything in life is a gamble. Does not make PE gambling!

Rgds

Ace

well, i'm running a one-man business.. gamble you say? i can work hard and be better at my job than the guy next to me.. so i will get better business.. it's the way i act in life that mostly determines its outcome.. now how can i click my mouse in the trox spawn any better than the guy next to me? how can you compare that? (i am aware of long time strategy being significant in EU, but the basic game-mechanics are designed to have a completely unpredictable and not-to-influence nature.. not quite the same as my real life.. no philosophic dicussion pls)

Witte · Jun 21, 2009

aridash said:
really? when did they make their first inspection then, because until this thread we had no confirmed information that they had at all, just assumption. There wasnt a groundswell of opinon on it, but people did sugget coins where "unrealistic" and wanted more animal parts in loot for crafting. What oils in loot did coincide with was a whole range of new BP to use them. I will also observe that mining never had peds in loot, nor did crafting (that i recollect?).

I think many people were against removing all PED, and not many for. But that has never been an argument for MA's motives. I can remember however it happened after a meeting MA had with authorities in the USA. Thats another point, MA does not just have to satisfy the Swedish law, but the law of all countries EU can be used. I also heard the servers are in Amsterdam, and the Chinese planet will likely have servers in China.

Profit · Jun 21, 2009

"As i didnt use amps for 6 months, what conclusions can you draw from that???

Seriously, your name is profit, you obviously dont from your continuous whining posts about loot. I believe it is you that is shit at PE!!!"

Do you run around claiming you cracked the system? No. So why would anything I said to Legion in anyway be related to you? Mr."Automatically take personal offence to get his slice of beefcake" guy. How you factor yourself into this, I have no idea. But continue insulting me, my blatent claims to profit in-game within my previous post

rolleyes: this is sarcasm by the way...) obviously constitute an insult in reference to my name, thanks.
*edit*On a side-note, I draw conclusions independantly. The conclusion I made was solely for Legion, based on my experiences in-game and also my experiences with Legion and his theories on the forums. Any conclusion I was to make about anyone else, would be based on my experiences in-game and also any experience with the person in question, on the forum.*edit*
*edit2*Shit at PE? What yardstick do you use to measure that? Profit? TT or MU? lol... This isn't a game of skill, it's a game of money and money management. I do those at work, I play EU*edit2*

Legion:
Same excrement, different day. Excuse #5344621231
You're still yet to prove your theory, go back to your desk at Mindark, wait, you don't intern there anymore, right? :scratch2:

Back on topic..
"again, why does the fixed nature make any difference (and the value isnt fixed to any other currency including Swedish Krona), and secondly how does this reconcile with ammo which is also in loot but fixed exchange to ped/$"

I don't understand your first question as it's obvious a PED is worth a PED, a PED worth of wool (interchange almost anything lootable in anyway) is not, necessarily, but while at work today I too was wondering about your second. For this I don't know but I'll have to check it out at some stage, also the non-MU items like hangar parts etc. came to mind.

EU = cleverly disguised gambling.

Opinions are free, everything else... cost PED!... except sweat..
.. and fruit..
.. and stones. :scratch2:

Profit · Jun 21, 2009

aridash said:
(1)you mean Pachinko is a legal form of gambling where any other form is prohibited . i think theres a major difference with Pachinko as (2)you are not legally allowed to exchange the balls for cash.

Sorry to use numbers lol editing takes more effort lol
1
It's not legally classified as gambling because of the way you are rewarded. The government knows the situation but finds it legally very difficult to do anything about, so they let it slide.
Note the use of the term: legally.
2
No, but you're allowed to exchange the balls for items that can then be sold at a variable rate to buyers who pay what they will. Generally the item that is most easily sold, are the boxed gold bars.

Jimmy B · Jun 21, 2009

Profit said:
I'm not trying to start anything, but if that's profane and insulting to you, you need thicker skin, where I'm from that's called telling it like it is.
Granted though, I should have said "full of poos".

What I thought about it is irrelevant (although it was profane, by definition), it was insulting to the person it was directed to, and against forum rules.

If you want my opinion, you're just as "full of poos". You attack Legion's ideas for their lack of proof, whilst you remain utterly convinced of their falsity despite lack of any disproof.

You also ascribe some meaning to Legion's Tracker record because you assume that if someone can profit they would be doing so as much as possible (where in actuality Legion's profit may, for instance, earn him less than he would earn working in Burger King).

Ace Flyster said:
EU is not gambling according to swedish gambling laws!

This is the real issue, yes. These threads tend to go on forever, because half the people in the thread are debating the legal side of things, and the other half are debating using the dictionary definition of gambling. Eventually the two debates clash, and the thread just devolves into pointless bickering.

aridash · Jun 21, 2009

Witte said:
I can remember however it happened after a meeting MA had with authorities in the USA. Thats another point, MA does not just have to satisfy the Swedish law, but the law of all countries EU can be used.

from looking back on this forum, the oils show up in Novemember 2006. Now, although the US Commerce Dept stated an intentsion to look in to cyber economies in Oct 2006, MA didnt talk to them (publically anyway) until August 2007. Myth busted? as for the law, yes they need to comply with the state they operate from (ie offices and servers), but they only need to worry about foriegn law if they intend to visit that country. there has been plenty of precedent on this with online gambling, US authorities cant touch directors until they land in US.

Profit said:
I don't understand your first question as it's obvious a PED is worth a PED, a PED worth of wool (interchange almost anything lootable in anyway) is not, necessarily,

it seemed like you were suggesting that because a non-ped items are variable in value somehow they dont count as being proper value in some way. this "variable" value point is somthing that doesn't stand up to logic or real world application.

Witte · Jun 21, 2009

aridash said:
from looking back on this forum, the oils show up in Novemember 2006. Now, although the US Commerce Dept stated an intentsion to look in to cyber economies in Oct 2006, MA didnt talk to them (publically anyway) until August 2007. Myth busted?

Ok doesn't seem to be a relation here.

as for the law, yes they need to comply with the state they operate from (ie offices and servers), but they only need to worry about foriegn law if they intend to visit that country. there has been plenty of precedent on this with online gambling, US authorities cant touch directors until they land in US.

I think the issue was that the USA government could block all CC transactions to MA.

Snuggins · Jun 21, 2009

Trux said:
.. they are not really different, but different enough to camouflage the gambling aspect - enough to be overseen by some authority-officers (they are only human too)..
maybe MA just didn't feel like taking a chance at that time..

anyway, no need to nitpick if EU is gambling or not..
fact is, the lottery-inspection doesn't really know a thing about EU and classified it as 'not gambling according to sweden laws' after a short view on the surface (propably only a short interview with one of the MA officials, i guess..)

Sorry, but this sounds like a cop-out from someone who needs to justify a long-held belief. Why would the lotteryinspectors (or whatever) be so easily fooled? You don't have any evidence that the inquiry was less than dilligent.

If we can see that ped coins == oils in all respects relevant to the issue of gambling why wouldn't professionals who's job it is to investigate exactly these kind of issues see the same thing?

Here is a link to Nightbird's thread requesting a replacement for peds/pecs in loot a month before they were implemented. (just because it may be interesting to the topic, nothing related to quote/reply above)

Trux · Jun 21, 2009

Snuggins said:
Sorry, but this sounds like a cop-out from someone who needs to justify a long-held belief. Why would the lotteryinspectors (or whatever) be so easily fooled? You don't have any evidence that the inquiry was less than dilligent.
..

from the opening post, the lottery-inspections statement:

Service Notes - depreciation

After the test played Project entropy in the autumn of 2008 makes Lotteriinspektionen currently estimates that the game's general nature does not mean that it is considered as lotteries in lottery law.

Project entropy is an advanced game and the Gaming Board has not had the opportunity to play and explore all parts. It is possible that there are parts of the game that would be classified as a lottery if they detected. Would Lotteriinspektionen get several tips suggesting that the examination can be resumed

Johan Rydstedt

i'm not talking about anyone being fooled.. i guess, the inspection was a meeting with MA-officials, with an interview and maybe a quick demo-play..

why should MA have to prove anything to the inspection?

(if i'm doing my tax, i tell the authorities how much i have to pay. only if there is a doubt about my declaration they will start to investigate)

is anyone here believing that such authorities are reading program-code, analyzing a MMO-software? lol..

this is the real world, official declarations are true until someone uncovers the dirt and the scandal hits the news.. sounds familiar?
(i'm not assuming any dirt in MA business, just to make clear)
if every declaration on earth would have to be investigated, even the vogons would drop out..

PS: i'm not fighting about gambling or not - it really doesn't matter to me.. i'm enjoying this game without caring about definitions..

[FM] · Jun 21, 2009

Exactly gambling or not dosent matter

many seams 2 forget that EU is free to download , its free 2 play , you are not forced in anyway , either do MA says that ther is a way too make/win money .

Now i think "Lotteri Inspektionen" looks on the whole perspectiv of the game and not just some parts that you may do inside the game and for example the mining/hunting MA dont say you may win money from it ,they call it professions and a Virtual Univers.

But as others said its a very complex and realy do we care if it is gambling or not after all we all do play for fun right

InDaHouse · Jun 21, 2009

Legion said:
'

Your calling me an amateur? I been playing EU since commercial open trial, first 2 years i played 12-16 hours a DAY! Also i cracked MA's timer once before although i think it was bugged that time and i take what MA did during 2 months after they found out as proof that i did crack it. So amateur no not really.

AS for globals, depending a bit on what i do i usually get 2-5 Globals a day depending on how much i play.

And knowledge does not guarantee one to hit big. Even if using amps. Also to make use of my mining theory now when i'm as skilled as i am i have to use amps to make it work. Why i wont say though as that would give it away of how the theory works. But no at the moment i dont mine at all, i spend my peds on upgrades and went hunting instead as i got a bit bored of mining.

It's quite common knowledge where minis/globals happen in mining actually. But does it guarantee globals? nooo again.

What i meant by prediction the ubers i meant what time and place, ie for example it will come between 22.00- 23.00 for example, but the day i cant predict as that depends on how much the mob is hunted.

As for biorythm i have explained what i mean by it and it's a efenition i use as it works like a biorythm irl.

YAY

you have a theory I get that from the post you made about it but you are claiming in this post that its now only half the theory you gave us lmao....

I'm a miner 52.5 prospecting 95% skilled manualy not deposited in over 2 years, I also know you can predict where a global/HoF will be ask any my SOC mates as for being able to say i'm going out today and this time to get the HoF nope sorry you cant do it..... Where is my proof of this statement? You legion your my proof I dont know you, I know Dave ace, Joe Squall, Wisdom Moore, Maronelle, Una, QQ Bait and many others but you I dont know why? Cos I pay close attension to mining globals as they pass by so I know who's mining and where!

Come abck when you've got a nice achievements list with some cool screenies of your consistant ubers.

Here's what i'd do with your ability to predict a time of an uber.... strap a 109 on log in each day same time at that spot and bomb if its the wrong day then log off come back next day result with your theory :tower:

daniel271080 · Jun 21, 2009

hmmmm , firs of all PE its the only game that offer us real money economy in game , and second of all we like it , in fact we love playing it so wth we are interested if PE its a gambling activity??

Wollongong · Jun 21, 2009

Legion said:
Just talked to the swedish lottery inspection and got the stuff they wrote/checked about Eu sent to me. (translated further down)

Translation

Seems they havent checked all to well

I would agree though that it is not gambling, from my view of how the entire game operates.

So, where should we be sending our tips?

Legion · Jun 22, 2009

Trux said:
from the opening post, the lottery-inspections statement:

i'm not talking about anyone being fooled.. i guess, the inspection was a meeting with MA-officials, with an interview and maybe a quick demo-play..

The one that did the actuall testing did actually play eu for quite some time from an article in the newspapers some month or two ago.

InDaHouse said:
YAY you have a theory I get that from the post you made about it but you are claiming in this post that its now only half the theory you gave us lmao....

I'm a miner 52.5 prospecting 95% skilled manualy not deposited in over 2 years, I also know you can predict where a global/HoF will be ask any my SOC mates as for being able to say i'm going out today and this time to get the HoF nope sorry you cant do it..... Where is my proof of this statement? You legion your my proof I dont know you, I know Dave ace, Joe Squall, Wisdom Moore, Maronelle, Una, QQ Bait and many others but you I dont know why? Cos I pay close attension to mining globals as they pass by so I know who's mining and where!

Come abck when you've got a nice achievements list with some cool screenies of your consistant ubers.

Here's what i'd do with your ability to predict a time of an uber.... strap a 109 on log in each day same time at that spot and bomb if its the wrong day then log off come back next day result with your theory

Yes it's only half part of the theory, as the new part about the amps was only figured out after i posted it. Some ppl have gotten the full thing though. And as said earlier, globals dont know shit about knowledge of mining. And also as i said, i dont mine a lot at the moment, learn to read a whole thread before posting

GullyFoyle · Jun 22, 2009

Witte said:
Difference being that chips have a fixed exchange rate, items do not. Also, items have an additional function than representing a value. I do think there is a connection between gamble inspection and removal of PED in loots.

Profit said:
Exactly.

Yes that makes the difference.... :laugh:

Kerham · Jun 22, 2009

daniel271080 said:
hmmmm , firs of all PE its the only game that offer us real money economy in game , and second of all we like it , in fact we love playing it so wth we are interested if PE its a gambling activity??

I guess it all depends on how you define "we".

Aside from that, there are three very important implications:

a) exposure to underaged
b) exposure to certain countries (USA to name one, which probably is the country of origin of the biggest chunk of EU deposits)
c) taxation, both of MA profits and of players' earnings

Would be also a subject of discussion the morality aspect, but that's anyway a delicate issue with EU itself.

Karmic · Jun 23, 2009

Profit said:
First I'd like to make an observation;
The majority of people who say that tracker stats don't matter, don't have good tracker stats. I use tracker to see if the person I'm enquiring about gets globals, not to see if they're profiting. One reason for this, is any genuinely experienced person in EU, has globals, whereas the opposite is true for amateurs (note; 5 years of sweating doesn't allow the experience that 6months intense participation in the 3 major professions does). I am not interested in hearing from amateurs as they lack experience.

Ahhhhhhhh the tracker. You are correct in that the tracker can show, for example, why you are struggling by comparing the skills and gear you have to the mobs you are hunting. But, to say any genuinely experienced person in eu has a high amount of globals, which I must assume you mean since Legion does have some globals, is wrong. First of all, the tracker is relatively new, and in my case, for example, even while it was running for the first few months it wasn't running at the times I was playing and therefore missed a lot of globals. It doesn't attribute teamed globals to a specific player, and truly experienced players gain a lot from teaming with their friends. Amusingly enough, one of the mobs with my highest profit doesn't show up on my tracker at all.

As far as gambling, I'd say yeah some parts of EU are gambling, clicking 101's on full condition is pure gambling imo. Kerham, I have to disagree with you on the poker angle, I play a lot of poker and agree that skills influence poker a lot, of course you can still do everything right in poker and lose. In entropia if you use your skills and knowledge over time my experience has been you are less likely to lose here. There are aspects of chance as there are in almost all games, but competitive gamers should do well here.

Igorl · Jun 23, 2009

Legion said:
Yes i was serious. And i dont agree, that is only how the system works, when enough ppl have worked up the loot on that particular mob and spawn it releases a top value for that mob sort of and that's not how a slotmachine works, that's purely "random" when it pays out, eu is not

Dude, you should really re-visit the issue of todays slot machine knowledgebase.

You feed it with coins and then it spills out. Classic slots were designed just as you said. They had a container and worked on dimes. And it could not pay out anything except the very same dimes someone actually fed it with before you...

Modern robbing machines even have something called jackpot counters :laugh:

Good to watch is American casino series (ran on Discovery not so long ago). See how it works @ Greenvalley ranch, Las Vegas

youll see it being the same as EU. High rollers are papmered and livestock feeds the slots.

I.

Karmic · Jun 23, 2009

Igorl said:
Modern robbing machines even have something called jackpot counters
Good to watch is American casino series (ran on Discovery not so long ago). See how it works @ Greenvalley ranch, Las Vegas youll see it being the same as EU. High rollers are papmered and livestock feeds the slots.

I.

Now I have to go find that series, Green Valley is where I play most of the time. Jackpot counters are nothing special, they are just progressive jackpots, there are very few "must hit by" jackpot counters, and those are almost always small $10,000 or less. Of course high rollers are pampered, the only reason to play the slots is with a group of friends hanging out on the penny slots getting free drinks. They're like crafting ore amps on condition, but you get free drinks!

Igorl · Jun 30, 2009

Ianus said:
What i really like is that from time to time some well known players come and prove with cold hard data's that there is a fix overall return in long time no matter what u do and that btw is around 90% in every profession give or take and the difference is the calculated tt loss that u can try to improve by trading with a margin and accumulate skills. And im talking about studies , tens of thousands of peds spent and recorded and such. So no is not a lottery because a lotery is not gonna guaranntee any kind of returning - thats the issue. And i have some data sheets aswell in both mining and hunting that are going for the same 90% return.
What i really dislike is that some "wise" guy like u that are way more active on forum than in actually game ( see ET ) came and spoke like u know it all based on nothing but some shit took from other trash post. WTG we all need more of u like......NOT !

Kiddo

Ive been here long before my forum bar shows m8 million of PED cycled / traded / gambled in and away away in vast years i spent in this game. Trust me - ive done it all Ive seen it all. And that is what bugs me most is the neverchanging same-ness of EU.

There are:

1) PPL caiming they broke into a system
2) PPL gambling and losing vast amounts of money
3) PPL gambling and gaining vast amounts of money
AND

4) PPL like you - who dont want to hear the truth

I.

Entropia = not gambling? (lotteriinspektionen)

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