Consumer rights and Entropia

p.s. - before you pull up buzz, deathifier and ND, those are, IMO, 'partners' due to both the money spent as well as the concept. Deathifier was the first major investor in LA, ND and buzz each are now classified as partners, due to their LAs/areas actually being removed from Calypso itself.

how are they classified as partners? from what i see, they face the same struggle with support (and maybe a few direct emails) as everyone else.

but you're probably right, nothing but the "right" to use (and even thats flimsey) has been purchased. consumer law (uk at least) does cover something meeting expectation and being fit for purpose, so it might be argued that you expect a certain usage (tax return) based on history and the changes have altered that usage. the EULA they sign is the same though and we all get other things adjusted as they see fit. who will have the time and pockets to explore this fully?
 
Besides the point, please allow FPC (inc MA) the opportunity to fix what they so royal screwed up on first. They are making many reversions back to how things were after realising this epic oopsie.

It is just a matter of manpower holding them up to get this all back to an ethically acceptable state. I do not personally feel waving around the big legalities hammer is really necessary.

not yet anyway.. but investors are starting to get angry so they should really pick up the pace to keep the legal stick from whapping em:trout:
 
VF - I didn't say I agreed with their idiotic decision to royally screw up the LA's like they did ;). I was just pointing out what the outward appearance was to the 'ownership' of LAs.
I'll believe in TRUE ownership the day that all LA deed owners are sent a contract that is signed IRL that grants them full ownership and control over their LA's. Until then, it's all open to conjecture.
 
I personally hope that the screwups on MindArk's part in 2009 will lead to correct policies and measures being put in place in 2010 once rectifications are completed that will lead to a turning point and new era in defining and legitamizing the RCE concept and investment into virtual assets in the real world market.

Where investment into virtual assets both in real world finance and invested confidence will become more of a norm in the financial and investment sectors than what they are today.

Right now, MindArk continues to learn from its mistakes and does walk a fine line between being responsible in business and what is deemed and/or perceived as being illegal.

In time hopefully industry standards can come about where law can be properly applied to the virtual world environment and virtual assets there within.

Proper taxes, virtual asset insurance and wills & testaments can be applied with the environment being properly regulated.

I know dedicated logic has been for some time in the legal process of nutting all these points out with authorities around the world to support their intended global audience and in their own country.

So if it is not MindArk, competitors will follow in due time which will eventually lead to international regulation of the environment.

I will not give up entirely on this emerging industry even though I am sorely disappointed thus far with its progress and hope that Marco can come to understand some of the points as to why he is not progressing smoothly with other aspects he wishes to achieve surrounding the promotion of Calypso in the market.

Many have lost or are losing confidence in both the RCE concept and MindArk as an ethical organisation to support such a concept.

Some are more worried that competition is now present on the horizon and insufficient effort & finance is being invested to address these issues in a timely manner; And to promote the service on a professionally invested level such as in the official Calypso Colonist MMO teaser thread.

This concern of Calypso quickly becoming Collapso when competition truely does knock at the door is what is driving the concerns, frustrations and anger in undiplomatically demanding that Marco/FPC & MindArk get their acts together quick smart to stop their dodgy wild west cowboy approach to business which does nothing but make them look foolish.

It is quite sad that people who have brought MindArk as invested clients to where they are present day have to jump up and down to have issues addressed in a professional and ethically correct manner, not to mention just receive an official response providing acknowledgement that there are problems and that they will be addressed as the means to address them becomes available.

Again, hang in there Qetesh, I am sure this cyclic stupidity on FPC (inc MA) part will end eventually and they will evolve having learned from it in that a similar repeat does not occur again in the future to destroy confidence and their organisation's good will.

I hope all that made sense, I must now go visit the coffee machine.
 
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Ah, do be aware that I was here about a week ago hunting and mining.
So at least you may have gotten some of my loot there with tax :)
 
How is buying a new BMW and a few toys a better way to spend your money then an income generating asset? :confused:

A LA might not be a good investment, but it's way better then a brand new car..

Trust me, I seriousely prefer buying a brand new car than having a LA or whatever "income generating asset" u can find inside EU. And seriousely, the LA's who are actualy income generating assets are rare, especialy after what they cost at the start:)

Buying LAs in EU is a sort of hobie, or u have some very well know places who actualy generate enough money to be interesting.
 
Trust me, I seriousely prefer buying a brand new car than having a LA or whatever "income generating asset" u can find inside EU.

I would rather buy an over priced land area in eu then a new car!

As for the land area changes I really hope ma will try to fix things for you.
 
I would rather buy an over priced land area in eu then a new car!

As for the land area changes I really hope ma will try to fix things for you.

Thank you, I am sure they will. It's only a question of time. Lots and lots of time :)
 
Bump for another VU without fixes.

Yea ... me think that the car is not a so bad option :) And since nothing is urs inside EU, at least the car is mine:p
 
:locked: by request of thread starter.
 
Re-opened by request of thread starter.
 
waiting for the tread starter to post then ... subscribed ...

Angel
 
Re-opened by request of thread starter.

Thank you safara

16 more months has passed and I still think this thread is more relevant than ever.
In my own original case some issues have been resolved. Some have been refused. Yet others are still on a permanent "on hold" basis.

The last months has been haunted by bugged shops and properties. As a co-owner of Medusa's Head I have been the man-in-the-middle for MA selling shops and apartments to players who now haven't been able to use them for weeks because FPC or MA refuse to even look at the bug because it is only reported by "a few" players. Yet other shops has been bugged for months with no action from MA/SEE's side to improve the situation.

People are investing thousands of peds in apartments and shops that they now cannot use.

Do we have any rights, or do we just have to "take it"?
 
Do we have any rights, or do we just have to "take it"?

I would say in the case of property, that if such a property has the intended purpose by the developer of aiding with, allowing or facilitating in generating virtual profits in a RCE then yes you do have rights, but not as owner of an asset. The product might not actually be yourr, but you paid for the services provided via it (Service from MA). So perhaps you all should look at this from a services point of view rather than an asset, as in a real asset. Perhaps you have more footing legally going the services route..

If however the "asset" serves merely as a game function that is not intended to affect profits (RCE), then it can no be classed a service either. And since you dont own anything virtual (for real), if it is not a service affecting real cash outcome then i cant see how you have any right as a consumer. Sadly :(
 
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As a Medusa apartment owner I had noticed their were some issues dropping items and issues with how some items spawned. Some RT furniture is totally fucked and unusable at the moment.

With regard to MA/SDS fixing things, well as you already know they don't respond to this forum, I doubt they even care! Qetesh have you tried the Kim in the old entropia forum, she may provide an answer if it meets the respond criteria.
I agree we may have nothing but the TT value, but as a service provider MA needs to focus on fixing bugs. I imagine fixing bugs isn't as much fun as designing new stuff, but hey, we all work and have to do the shit jobs as well. MA fix the bugs, respond and acknowledge your client base and from there design new stuff. Take some inspiration from the Arkadian team, who actually want to keep their clients. More depositing clients equals more company profit, keep us happy and we will reward you! If your shareholders read this forum, may open their eyes as to why profits are not so good. Can't blame the wfc for everything now can we!:mad:
 
So perhaps you all should look at this from a services point of view rather than an asset, as in a real asset. Perhaps you have more footing legally going the services route..
While I agree with you, keep in mind, in the past the assets in question used to indicate 'ownership'



Actually, I suspect that one reason that was changed is because of issues like the ones mentioned in this thread. That alone speaks volumes.

Qetesh have you tried the Kim in the old entropia forum, she may provide an answer if it meets the respond criteria.
Qetesh did link to this thread from over there, which is why he had it unlocked I guess.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forum/ask-mindark/199967-mindark-pp-consumer-laws.html

If you do get a lawyer after them, I suspect false advertising would be one argument besides the consumer rights issues already mentioned...


https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...World-Prison&p=2686099&viewfull=1#post2686099
 
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One doesnt have to know anything particular in terms of laws of a particular country to know that you have a very valid case there. Each western country is usually tied to human rights and/or has a constitution in which property plays a major aspect. Property can be money, estates whatever you like. Now if you loose a huge amount of property without a valid reason to a business partner, there are always laws out there, that are preventing that or compensating this, because its a duty to the state to overlook things like that and act to maintain legal peace. Otherwise it would not be a constitutional state. The rights a state has set for itself don't only play a part in state-civilian relationship, but also in judging civilian-civilian relationship inside its boundaries.

Now if you really feel like you've been economically hurt in a unjustified way, set them a deadline to set things right, 2-3 months with a warning each month and if you get no pleasing answer get yourself a lawyer if nothing happens.

Dont expect valid legal advice on the case inside this forum . People who do that get paid for it.

gl
 
Of particular interest is the court ruling on Lindens TOU/EULA which was declared unconscionable (one sided, unfair) and so was disregarded by the court. There are other quite relevant points from this case but i'll leave it for you to read and reason yourselves.

Yes, this is usually the case, as pointed out in this thread a while ago. TOU/EULAs have usually a few points that are void, because Company-Consumer Relationship is shifted more towards the Consumer side, who usually has a weaker standing and thus is granted a better protection through law.
 
I think certain aspects of this thread deserve attention.

In particular, if you paid for a particular piece of real estate with particular features, only to have those features removed or changed utterly it should be a concern.

I own a property as well, with unique features. Having a castle in the middle of a lake, with close proximity to a town and scenic rising landscape all around is all part of why the castle was purchased. If I were to wake up one day and find my castle now existed on a flat, barren desert, I would be a little irritated. Unless MindArk / SDS saw fit to provide me with Sandworms, Spice, and my own Fremen army as a compromise I would feel a little ripped off at the sudden change of events.

So I see Qetesh's point about property and aesthetics.

However it should be said that minor changes should be adapted to. This is a dynamic world, and just as in the real world nothing is certain. Nymphtown could suffer an earthquake and be destroyed (leaving only ruins). Or it could become a population center, with many buildings having all types of functionality. Or a volcano could erupt. Or an alien spacecraft could make its base nearby.

The basic geography would remain the same (in all but the most extreme cases), but small changes over time are natural and should be for the most part embraced.
 
MindArk will provide the Entropia Universe System "as is". Any and all use of the Entropia Universe System is only allowed according to the terms and conditions set forth in this EULA. All use of the Entropia Universe System not in accordance with this EULA is expressly forbidden.

All of these question can be narrowed down to the above statement. So one can either go two ways. 1. you know the EULA and accepted teh as is state of the game and subject to changes.
2. The eula gets destroyed in court and MA needs to supply a game like it is intent to get used. (meaning a shop is intented to sell stuff and if there is a bug where you cant sell it needs to get fixed asap ).

So it can be quite interesting how this can turn out in court. But in any case ...how much will it cost to sue MindArk and how much will it cost you to sell your property ? (there is always a nut willing to buy it)
 
This is absolute BULLSHIT !!!! THEY HAD NO RIGHT TO CHANGE ANYTHING !! (my opinion) You bought it as it was for very good reasons and ill tell you what if you want me to testify ina court of law : would i hunt and mine on that land before the change i would say HELL YEAH !! And if you ask me would i hunt and mine there after the changes were made to what it looks like now i would say NO ! Why wouldnt i ? Well my ML35 doesnt see over hills and mountains very well and we all know you cant drop probes on the side of mountains that look like that! I say its complete BULLSHIT and they need to put it back the way it was -PERIOD! MA-> :nutkick:
 
This is absolute BULLSHIT !!!! THEY HAD NO RIGHT TO CHANGE ANYTHING !! (my opinion)

...
Problem is, they do have a right, and you don't get an opinion.
 
Problem is, they do have a right, and you don't get an opinion.

Ofc you are right but no company survive playing god. Feels like they play to much The Sims at the MA office. They are supposed to have something called balance manager but he was probably fired VU 6 and since then been a vaccant position at MA.
 
Problem is, they do have a right, and you don't get an opinion.

What do you mean i cant give an opinion i just did :lolup: And ill tell you what else , i think this is a case where the community has to stand behind our fellow players and say were not going to tollerate something like this and say as one voice as gamers who support this game with real money ! You dont piss on people this way and expect to get away with it.
 
I have been wondering about this since VU 10.

When you buy something you are usually entitled to the item you paid for. If you buy a porche then you expect to get a porche and you don't expect the seller to come to your house after 3 days with a sledgehammer to reshape the roof and remove the wheels.

With VU 10 all of calypso was remade for the new engine, and obviously nobody can expect it to look the same before / after, however:

This was my outback land 25 before the vu:



And this is after:



What I paid for was a flat "perfect" hunting area where you could tag mobs at the end of the radar if you only had a weapon that could shoot far enough. Now it's basically a big hillside with a river cutting it in half making it really unpleasant to hunt in and mostly suited for melee weapons. over 100k was spent on DNA on this mob that now is easier to hunt on eudoria due to these changes.

Many of my other areas suffered a similar faith;

LA 20 ((ex?) longu land):


LA 41 (new switzerland):


I made a point out of buying lands that were flat, close to tp and good for hunting. After vu 10.0 all but one of my LAs was moved further away from TP's, and drastically reshaped. After contacting MA about the issue they actually moved some TPs around to make up for some of it and for that I am grateful, but for instance outback land 29 which was right next to emerald TP is now miles away from anything. New Switzerland which I paid over 500k ped for due to being one of two land areas that had a TP INSIDE it now no longer has any tp in it, and the 3 fairly good hunting areas there are now gone and replaced by a fancy looking road cutting through the entire area. Don't get me wrong, it looks great, but I just don't see it bringing any income. Even mining is tough there since the area is full of hills you can't climb.

Before vu 10 I had no areas with rivers in them, and all areas with exception of LA 41 were really flat and ideal for hunting and therefor paid more than the average land area price to acquire these. Now I have 4 areas that have huge rivers splitting them up and vast mountains in most of them that you cannot even get up on. The bottom line for me is that due to these changes these LAs no longer contains that extra edge I paid greatly for and thus are no longer worth what they were before the vu. The value of the LAs has simply been reduced.

My question is this; To what extent are we entitled to "get what we paid for" in entropia? Can MA change the stats of an imk2 overnight so the eco is that of an opalo? Do we have any consumer rights in Entropia with regards to these things? We are after all talking about considerable amounts of money here.
I feel very bad your profit isnt the same, send me a PM when you have sold out:)
 
What do you mean i cant give an opinion i just did :lolup: And ill tell you what else , i think this is a case where the community has to stand behind our fellow players and say were not going to tollerate something like this and say as one voice as gamers who support this game with real money ! You dont piss on people this way and expect to get away with it.

I dont agree that items bought should have their "stats" changed after the event.

But someone that exploited a glitch in the game and got away with it is not the best person to stand up and shout the odds for fair play :)
 
I dont agree that items bought should have their "stats" changed after the event.

But someone that exploited a glitch in the game and got away with it is not the best person to stand up and shout the odds for fair play :)

Really there is no need to change topic because you still hold some sort of impression of the past, instead of making useless comments on a post that is very serious you come visit me out in the desert and we discuss it there pvp style otherwise stfu about shit you only think you understand!
 
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