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Major tier upgrade process

Jake Rogue said:
:rofl:

No... The Secondary item is always salvaged fully (meaning you get to keep the item) if the upgrade is successful.

If the system works as it should then:

Chance of Retrieving Secondary Item = (50% Chance of Upgrade Suceeding) + (50% Chance of Upgrade Failing AND 95% Chance of Salvage Suceeding) = 0.5 + (0.5*0.95) = 0.5 + 0.475 = 0.975 = 97.5%
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Right and wrong, because if you not manage to tier up and salvage your second item you have to try again and it is again the same chance of loosing it over and over again until you managed to level up or lost your item. Right?
 
FallenAngel said:
um...how about the fact that once you have tiered up a L item and it dies you have to start all over again, so what is the point of this system if they want people to use L items so that we have a "real" economy. that or tiers were meant to be useless for L items?

and im not happy being told its a feature, and then the next day to be told its a mistake and is/will be fixed.
Click to expand...

It may not be optimal for everyone, but it is not something to be mad about. The system will never work exactly as you want it to work, you have to learn and live with that fact. Still, a solution to this would be to have the tiers on (L) items unlocked at the moment of creation. The number of tiers unlocked would be dependent on chance. So some (L) items have 1, while other 10.

About the (L) market, do realize that these enhancers break. In a way MA has effectively turned every single item into an (L) item, while maintaining the balance. That is a pretty impressive job.
 
aridash said:
this needs more attention, even if it is a known bug. how does that occur? what other item can not be traded? iirc they have made a point in the past of stating everything is tradable. so how is there a mechanism in game to render an upgraded item untradable? :scratch2:
Click to expand...

Maybe it is related to not being able to trade an item with an attachment on?
 
Raffaele Meiers said:
Right and wrong, because if you not manage to tier up and salvage your second item you have to try again and it is again the same chance of loosing it over and over again until you managed to level up or lost your item. Right?
Click to expand...

For each attempt the chance is 97.5%. To tier up on average you will need 2 attempts, so the chance to lose the item is 5%.
 
Raffaele Meiers said:
Right and wrong, because if you not manage to tier up and salvage your second item you have to try again and it is again the same chance of loosing it over and over again until you managed to level up or lost your item. Right?
Click to expand...

Correct.

However, I was referring to any singular given attempt, as I wrote in my original post:

Jake Rogue said:
Given the current stated odds, the actual chance of losing an item on any given attempt...
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Although, like everything in Entropia this is a massive oversimplification of the system as one would gain skills in the process ("EU is dynamic").

I also assume that the system is implemented in the way that would make the most logical sense in the way that it was originally described, however, it could be possible in the light of Marco's most recent comments here that the “Chance of Success” variable is confounded with the stated “Chance of Salvage”. In which case, the term “Chance of Salvage” would actually be a complete misnomer given that the two would not be independent events.

Knowing MindArk as I do, and their very sloppy and highly ambiguous use of the English language, I wouldn't be surprised if that actually is how it works and that the chance of losing an item on any given attempt is merely 5% after all.

:D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confounding
 
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Most have been a nice ""how can we fuck up our paying people to loose and pay more"" meeting MA did have the day the made this shit

:mad:

ahh. also just got 70 ped back, on a 500 ped run.. ohh tyvm MA, Now thats how you realy get new players to join and deposit.. or NOT!
maybe i just should schip out me noob 180k skills, insteed of MA fu** us up all time long
 
This is starting to sound more and more like a certain Korean MMO... :scratch2:
 
Well done MA, you've just created the second-worst item upgrade system ever devised.

Why not just remove the requirement for a second item altogether? It is pointless and stupid, and it doesn't add anything at all to gameplay except a chance of losing expensive stuff either to the system or to a scammer.

If you can't get to 100% salvage rate, then this change is no better than the first system. The problem is the risk of loss. Whether this risk is 1%, 5% or 10% doesn't really matter. As long as there is ANY risk of loss, this system is useless.

Now if you can get to 100% salvage rate, it's a different story.

If it's a low-end item then it should be simple enough, just buy one off auction or borrow one from a socmate, job done. But what is the point of that? It adds NOTHING to the game except for a bit of annoying time spent getting an item.

You might as well say that to unlock the upgrade we have to swim round the coast of Eudoria - that would be equally trivial, pointless and unrewarding.

If it's a high-end item then most people will have to open themselves and others up to massive risk by borrowing or lending items. And again, even if you trust someone completely, what is the point? You give me your item, I do the upgrade, I give it back - there's no challenge, there's no added depth, it's just utterly pointless and the only people who can get anything out of it are thieves and scammers.

How many scams need to take place before you change this again?

Just remove the requirement for the duplicate item!
 
In other words

My understanding of Berthas+Marcos posts, and a humbe attempt to put it in different words:

  • One check, that we can think of as a 1-100 roll.
  • The combined success rate and salvage rates placed on a single 1-100 scale gives three ranges, the 1-50, 51-95 and 96-100 range (using current unskilled numbers).
  • Roll result gives three possibilities regarding the main issues:
  • 1-50: Item upgraded, secondary item kept.
  • 51-95: Item not upgraded, secondary item kept.
  • 96-100: Item not upgraded, secondary item lost.

(Also some additional residue returns based on tt values etc, not the main issue.)

  • Skilling a new profession (after upcoming mini-update that fixes a bug) can improve the above figures, unclear exactly how much.
  • Lastly, a new item mentioned can possibly be used somehow in relation to the secondary item, unclear in which way.

All this means that with unskilled tier-upgrade profession, and not taking the mysterious upcoming "secondary item"-object into account, there is a 50% chance of upgrading and a a 95% chance of keeping the secondary item.

Is this way of putting it correct?

Mats Wiklund
Stockholm University
 
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GameEducation said:
All this means that with unskilled tier-upgrade profession, and not taking the mysterious upcoming "secondary item"-object into account, there is a 5% risk of losing the secondary item.

Is this way of putting it correct?

Mats Wiklund
Stockholm University
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Not necessarily.

It could be that 95% is the maximum achievable salvage rate, and that the new profession will actually make it more likely that the item will be destroyed.
 
Witte said:
For each attempt the chance is 97.5%. To tier up on average you will need 2 attempts, so the chance to lose the item is 5%.
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i think the chance to lose is far higher than that, if you dont have the skill than you lose on the 50%. the 95% only counts if you are sucessfull. :scratch: i think. its too damn complicated. its utterly unnecessary either way and with the teir ratings we just seem to have been given a mini in game lottery.
 
Oleg said:
Why not just remove the requirement for a second item altogether? It is pointless and stupid, and it doesn't add anything at all to gameplay except a chance of losing expensive stuff either to the system or to a scammer.

If you can't get to 100% salvage rate, then this change is no better than the first system. The problem is the risk of loss. Whether this risk is 1%, 5% or 10% doesn't really matter. As long as there is ANY risk of loss, this system is useless.
Click to expand...

Good points here. I can only guess that the reason for keeping such a overbearing requirement stems from a secondary goal of the "tier system" (primary goal being abundantly clear), that being a method to "incentivize" the purging of many mid-level UL items from the game. Over the years, MA seems to have gradually made L items more appealing (i.e. Martial) yet the L market remains hindered somewhat by the sizeable amount of semi-decent UL items remaining in circulation (especially in the mid-level spectrum)

I presume that once MA/FPC actually get this debacle sorted, (or finally hires a consultant or two to ensure some of the recent half baked ideas floating from the dev team office receive proper time in the oven) that the chances of success in upgrading low to mid-level UL items will be favourable enough for many to risk a pony up to the Texas Tier Table.

Still, as you point out, with the loss of the second original item in jeopardy, its hard to see how MA will be able to set the range for failure percentage in such a way that will make this system appealing for widespread use, but also beneficial for them by not raising the bar of item efficiency if chances of success are too high.
 
Oleg said:
Well done MA, you've just created the second-worst item upgrade system ever devised.

Why not just remove the requirement for a second item altogether? It is pointless and stupid, and it doesn't add anything at all to gameplay except a chance of losing expensive stuff either to the system or to a scammer.

If you can't get to 100% salvage rate, then this change is no better than the first system. The problem is the risk of loss. Whether this risk is 1%, 5% or 10% doesn't really matter. As long as there is ANY risk of loss, this system is useless.

Now if you can get to 100% salvage rate, it's a different story.

If it's a low-end item then it should be simple enough, just buy one off auction or borrow one from a socmate, job done. But what is the point of that? It adds NOTHING to the game except for a bit of annoying time spent getting an item.

You might as well say that to unlock the upgrade we have to swim round the coast of Eudoria - that would be equally trivial, pointless and unrewarding.

If it's a high-end item then most people will have to open themselves and others up to massive risk by borrowing or lending items. And again, even if you trust someone completely, what is the point? You give me your item, I do the upgrade, I give it back - there's no challenge, there's no added depth, it's just utterly pointless and the only people who can get anything out of it are thieves and scammers.

How many scams need to take place before you change this again?

Just remove the requirement for the duplicate item!
Click to expand...

The reason you need an additional item is that it will create a new profession. If you do not need the extra item anyone can upgrade their own item without any risk. An itemupgrader should be able to provide collateral, and has a reputation to keep up. So you will only get scammed when you do something stupid, just like it is today.

aridash said:
i think the chance to lose is far higher than that, if you dont have the skill than you lose on the 50%. the 95% only counts if you are sucessfull. :scratch: i think. its too damn complicated. its utterly unnecessary either way and with the teir ratings we just seem to have been given a mini in game lottery.
Click to expand...

On individual basis it seems a lottery, but when its part of a bussiness its just expenses. You can compare it to warranty. If you buy a new product, there is a certain chance it will break within the first year. So buying a product is sort of a lottery. But since the company gives a warranty, this chance becomes part of the companies expenses.
 
Witte said:
on individual basis it seems a lottery, but when its part of a bussiness its just expenses. You can compare it to warranty. If you buy a new product, there is a certain chance it will break within the first year. So buying a product is sort of a lottery. But since the company gives a warranty, this chance becomes part of the companies expenses.
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an irrelevent analogy. the intention is for the product to last that long and beyond. the warranty is a form of gaurantee provided by the company to comfort the consumer. life does not resolve down to a series of gambles and lotteries, risk != gambling.
 
aridash said:
what a rubbish and irrelevent analogy. the intention is for the product to last that long and beyond. the warranty is a form of gaurantee. life does not resolve down to a series of gambles and lotteries, risk != gambling.
Click to expand...

When you tier up, the intention isn't to lose the item either. The analogy is very accurate in fact.
 
It's Mindark's achilles heel, Greed.

No matter what they create they ruin it by using it as an excuse to make us spend more.
 
Witte said:
When you tier up, the intention isn't to lose the item either.
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but it should not even be a factor. they've introduced several random elements into somthing that didnt need them, for no advatage (save i suppose, balance). IRL, as here, if there is such a risk one would not perform the action. if i upgrade my cars engine, i would do so in a risk free manner. if there was some risk, i would appy a different method to mitigate the risk. if i procede to carry out a known high risk upgrade, say very high deg cams or a turbo, i do so with control of the risks, maybe with the expectation of future failure which i am aware of and can predict reasonably (ie, turbo will blow the engine in 25-30k miles).

this ingame upgrade system is simply dice rolling for the sake of it, i have little to no control or influcene on it, just press the button. win/no win.
 
The reason you need an additional item is that it will create a new profession. If you do not need the extra item anyone can upgrade their own item without any risk.
Click to expand...

Why is upgrading your item without risk a bad thing?

We are here to enjoy ourselves. A tier system without risk would be welcomed by the vast majority.
 
Was it that NutCracker Picture that caused this quick fix? :D
 
aridash said:
but it should not even be a factor. they've introduced several random elements into somthing that didnt need them, for no advatage (save i suppose, balance). IRL, as here, if there is such a risk one would not perform the action. if i upgrade my cars engine, i would do so in a risk free manner. if there was some risk, i would appy a different method to mitigate the risk. if i procede to carry out a known high risk upgrade, say very high deg cams or a turbo, i do so with control of the risks, maybe with the expectation of future failure which i am aware of and can predict reasonably (ie, turbo will blow the engine in 25-30k miles).

this ingame upgrade system is simply dice rolling for the sake of it, i have little to no control or influcene on it, just press the button. win/no win.
Click to expand...

To stick with the car analogy, thats part of the reason why you let a garage do the upgrade. They have the expertise to do the upgrade properly, and when they still mess up you get warranty.

Similar to let your item be upgraded by an enhancer. He or she takes the risk and you pay a fixed fee.

Hostage said:
Why is upgrading your item without risk a bad thing?

We are here to enjoy ourselves. A tier system without risk would be welcomed by the vast majority.
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I don't know if it is good or bad. Short term entertainment and long term balance are often contradicting.
 
Witte said:
The reason you need an additional item is that it will create a new profession. If you do not need the extra item anyone can upgrade their own item without any risk.
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What's wrong with just risking the lyst, melchi, fragments etc that are used in the process? And why do we need a new profession at all? It's obvious that they just made it up yesterday to try and calm the situation anyway.

Witte said:
An itemupgrader should be able to provide collateral, and has a reputation to keep up. So you will only get scammed when you do something stupid, just like it is today.
Click to expand...

But this system effectively forces you to put your items in someone else's hands (or just don't upgrade).

Remember the old warning "If someone says they can upgrade your armour, don't trust them! Armour can't be upgraded"? Now that has to become "If this guy says he can upgrade your armour, don't trust him, he will just steal your armour, but this guy here who's saying the exact same thing won't, you can trust him, and that guy over there, well I don't know him so I have no idea if he'll steal from you or help you, only way to find out is try it".

The whole concept of the item upgrader profession is massively flawed.

As well as the scam opportunities, you still need another item. So someone who sets themselves up as an item upgrader is going to need a ready supply of anything that they might be asked to upgrade. So you can forget about setting yourself up as an upgrader unless you've also got access to every type of weapon and armour in the game.

I'm surprised you can't see how totally stupid it (still) is.
 
Oleg said:
What's wrong with just risking the lyst, melchi, fragments etc that are used in the process? And why do we need a new profession at all?
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It kinda is what EU is all about. I don't really see what's wrong with it.

But this system effectively forces you to put your items in someone else's hands (or just don't upgrade).

Remember the old warning "If someone says they can upgrade your armour, don't trust them! Armour can't be upgraded"? Now that has to become "If this guy says he can upgrade your armour, don't trust him, he will just steal your armour, but this guy here who's saying the exact same thing won't, you can trust him, and that guy over there, well I don't know him so I have no idea if he'll steal from you or help you, only way to find out is try it".

The whole concept of the item upgrader profession is massively flawed.
Click to expand...

I am not really sorry for the gullible. Especially when someone is scammed with the promise of potential financial gain. It is your own responsibility to look after your items. If its really a big problem, MA can always create an item upgrader window similar to a trade window.

As well as the scam opportunities, you still need another item. So someone who sets themselves up as an item upgrader is going to need a ready supply of anything that they might be asked to upgrade. So you can forget about setting yourself up as an upgrader unless you've also got access to every type of weapon and armour in the game.

I'm surprised you can't see how totally stupid it (still) is.
Click to expand...

Yes the serious upgrader will need to invest massively, there is no such thing as free money ;).
 
Uni said:
pls read :


in another way : skill on cheap UL items to raise ur chance to be more succesful when upgrading
:yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay:
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wrong!!!

that means that if you try youll fail beacuse program just dont balance your skills against odds formula so no matter your experience the program will asume youre a noob on that skill
 
Witte said:
To stick with the car analogy, thats part of the reason why you let a garage do the upgrade. They have the expertise to do the upgrade properly, and when they still mess up you get warranty.

Similar to let your item be upgraded by an enhancer. He or she takes the risk and you pay a fixed fee.
Click to expand...

still with the warranty? its there to protect you investment in the event of failure. its the opposite of what you are claiming. if we were to have warranty in EU, it would be that MA reimburse you 1 item if the upgrade process failed. buying a item/product irl does not hold a risk of failure for me precisely because the company warranties that it will not fail - they are taking the risk that they might have to replace. or are warranties just different were you come from (seriously, dont know why else the strange analogy). maybe thats your point ahout it being a business expence, but im not a business and im paying for the upgrade with the exact opposite of a waranty, a threat that if i do attmpet an upgrade and it fails than a posession of mine will be lost.
 
Oleg said:
The whole concept of the item upgrader profession is massively flawed.
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that profession may make sense without resorting to trust. when marco announced originally the tier system, he said that a new profession could be to upgrade items for others. when i read that, i took it as: "I buy a maddox IV tier N, I train it, and upgrade it, and I sell it as tier N+1".

this may make sense for low-mid weapons, but not necessarily for high-end gear, which might not be the primary target of the tier system.
 
Witte said:
I am not really sorry for the gullible. Especially when someone is scammed with the promise of potential financial gain. It is your own responsibility to look after your items. If its really a big problem, MA can always create an item upgrader window similar to a trade window.
Click to expand...

I agree that people need to take responsibility for their own actions, but that doesn't mean that MA should be adding traps for them to fall into.

Witte said:
Yes the serious upgrader will need to invest massively, there is no such thing as free money ;).
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So we have to go back to the bad old days of hoarding, with tons of top-quality gear sat unused in someone's storage, brilliant :rolleyes:
 
aridash said:
still with the warranty? its there to protect you investment in the event of failure. its the opposite of what you are claiming. if we were to have warranty in EU, it would be that MA reimburse you 1 item if the upgrade process failed. buying a item/product irl does not hold a risk of failure for me precisely because the company warranties that it will not fail - they are taking the risk that they might have to replace. or are warranties just different were you come from (seriously, dont know why else the strange analogy). maybe thats your point ahout it being a business expence, but im not a business and im paying for the upgrade with the exact opposite of a waranty, a threat that if i do attmpet an upgrade and it fails than a posession of mine will be lost.
Click to expand...

Maybe I was not totally clear, but what I mean to say is that it is similar to an in game item enhancer business. So you do not do upgrades yourself, unless you accept the risk, but you let an upgrader do it for you. He gives you the guarantee (warranty) it will either be a success or you get a refund.
 
Oleg said:
I agree that people need to take responsibility for their own actions, but that doesn't mean that MA should be adding traps for them to fall into.
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Well I also gave a rather simple solution. I don't see it as a huge issue.

So we have to go back to the bad old days of hoarding, with tons of top-quality gear sat unused in someone's storage, brilliant :rolleyes:
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There won't be that many people doing this, so the impact is marginal. Any maybe, lets hope so, the unsalvaged items return to the loot pool ;).
 
jdegre said:
that profession may make sense without resorting to trust. when marco announced originally the tier system, he said that a new profession could be to upgrade items for others. when i read that, i took it as: "I buy a maddox IV tier N, I train it, and upgrade it, and I sell it as tier N+1".

this may make sense for low-mid weapons, but not necessarily for high-end gear, which might not be the primary target of the tier system.
Click to expand...

If that is the case then the original problem has not really been solved at all.

It remains to be seen how it works, of course. Though I'd be very surprised if anyone knows that yet, since they'll no doubt be cobbling it together on Monday.
 
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