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Major tier upgrade process

Witte said:
A pvp enhancer window would suffice. No need for a lending system. ... thinking in problems will get you nowhere, thinking in solutions will.
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i struggle to see MA implementing a special window to facilitate PvP enhancer semi-trade, just after having created a new system that makes its use required in the first place. it would just add another needless layer of complexity.

its good to think in terms of solutions, but you need to understand the problems first. if the root cause is a flaw then the best remedy is always to reengineer and remove the problem than implement a workaround.
 
Shadowsong said:
If your manic compulsion to have the very best now stands in conflict with your capacity to afford it, then welcome to our f*kken world.
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This is the best thing I have ever heard. On it's own, regardless of the context here. I am not trying to jump on Helena's back. But this quote is awesome.

I think it really is the best description of EU there is. Just change it a little bit to be less abrasive and more impersonal like:

"If your manic compulsion to have the very best now stands in conflict with your capacity to afford it, then welcome to Planet Calypso." :yay:
 
can skill make the salvage rate to 100% ?
 
aridash said:
i struggle to see MA implementing a special window to facilitate PvP enhancer semi-trade, just after having created a new system that makes its use required in the first place. it would just add another needless layer of complexity.

its good to think in terms of solutions, but you need to understand the problems first. if the root cause is a flaw then the best remedy is always to reengineer and remove the problem than implement a workaround.
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But what is this "flaw" exactly? We don't even know the effect of the tiers, nor how the process will work exactly. How can we possibly already tell there is a problem in the first place? Aren't you dramatizing a bit?
 
The enhancement of uber gear is a worry of only 1% of us, huh?
For (L) Items... throwing lots of cash into a thing that will go dead in a few hours makes no sense to me.
So, we have the regular items... I am busy with making myself an enhanced TT knife, should be a fun toy. :)
 
Witte said:
But what is this "flaw" exactly? We don't even know the effect of the tiers, nor how the process will work exactly. How can we possibly already tell there is a problem in the first place? Aren't you dramatizing a bit?
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so you dont not recognise the second item requirement as a flaw? is it fine that anyone with a valuable/rare item has to obtain a second one to carry out an upgrade? ok so we dont have to upgrade, but it would be nice to have the option.

I know, there might be an "alternative method". however its been only mentioned on an unofficial forum by a planet partner rep who has also acknowleged they have no power, there's no official notice it will come or when. right now we have to judge the system as it is, if the flaw is fixed that i will be happy. and a flaw it certainly must be, otherwise FPC wouldnt be mentioning a as yet undepolyed feature and there wouldnt be need for suggestions of special upgrade loan windows.

if i seem dramatic its because i was quite excited by the enhancer idea and hoped for the future, and im very disappointed at both the implementation itself and also the impression it gives me of how MA views us.
 
Will this cause prices on higher end unlimited items to go up or down :confused: :scratch2:
 
aridash said:
and a flaw it certainly must be, otherwise FPC wouldnt be mentioning a as yet undepolyed feature and there wouldnt be need for suggestions of special upgrade loan windows.
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Even if a loan system was implemented it wouldn't solve this problem. Consider:
- If you put the lent item as the item to be upgraded, you would upgrade someone elses item not your own.
- You can't put the lent item as "secondary item" since there is a risk it will be destroyed.
- Loan system wouldn't solve the need for secondary items for crafters either, unless the crafter either has the item himself or can borrow from a friend who's either rich, high level reseller or oldtime uber.

I'm a bit ambivalent. On one hand it's nice there is a way to upgrade items, on the other hand I fear that the system is too complicated for most "poor" midlevel players.

On one hand it's voluntary, on the other hand it's like "old" weapons vs SIB weapons: If you don't afford/are unable to upgrade your Fox ME (due to lack of secondary items and/or ingredients needed being expensive), you'll find yourself on the losing end if you meet someone who's been able to upgrade his fox ME with range, for instance.
 
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Oleg said:
Given the history of consistently fucking it up, I'm beginning to think that not bothering with new systems any more is a reasonable option.
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A STRANGE GAME.
THE ONLY WINNING MOVE IS NOT TO PLAY.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHWjlCaIrQo[/YOUTUBE]

HOW ABOUT A NICE GAME OF CHESS?

;)
 
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Tier Items cannot be traded? -lame, why you force us to sell Tier Items via auctions only? Only for the auc-fees? private trades of Tier Items will have no securities anymore, because you will have to put them on the ground to trade them meeeehh

No speed enhancers for weapons? -lame, i am not sure if i like the EU Tier system, too many flaws.

Iam disappointed, i expected the system to be hard and expensive but this is a hit in the face for every dedicated player.

Its always a matter of relation, just check the current Maddox4 Hype: People hope they can drive up the dmg high enough to be able to amp it with a Dante. Taking the upgrade risk of loss, the component costs and the bad eco of the item, this is a pedsink and is in no relation to lets say an apis dante, which provides the same and more for way way less costs.

Again a system that is not of help for beginners. The upgrade costs are way to high on unlimited items. Add the risk and it outright sux

I am not whining easily but i am really really disappointed!
 
Parlog said:
Tier Items cannot be traded? -lame, why you force us to sell Tier Items via auctions only? Only for the auc-fees? private trades of Tier Items will have no securities anymore, because you will have to put them on the ground to trade them meeeehh
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It is reasonable to allow for the market to present the true value of tiered items, since each tier has it's own market price now.

Just don't call it a "known issue" if you intend to force an unwanted feature...
 
Well just tried to upgrade my OF-105, and it failed spent over 200 Peds on items and (even though I got the duplicate finder back) I only got 44 Peds in Res.

This is total BS losing over 160 Peds with 1 click, well it was my 1st Tier attempt and will be the last :(
 
kintoo said:
Well just tried to upgrade my OF-105, and it failed spent over 200 Peds on items and (even though I got the duplicate finder back) I only got 44 Peds in Res.

This is total BS losing over 160 Peds with 1 click, well it was my 1st Tier attempt and will be the last :(
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Sounds like the residue is probably the same as the TT of the items used, yes?
 
Oleg said:
Sounds like the residue is probably the same as the TT of the items used, yes?
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About 90% yes, but rather than loose all the items whey not get back 95% ish of the items used teh Tier I components have a low drop rate and are selling for 5000% + lol

If I got 90-95% of the items then fair enough but residue is worthless lol
 
kintoo said:
Well just tried to upgrade my OF-105, and it failed spent over 200 Peds on items and (even though I got the duplicate finder back) I only got 44 Peds in Res.

This is total BS losing over 160 Peds with 1 click, well it was my 1st Tier attempt and will be the last :(
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:eek: thats almost 1/3 of my monthly deposit (if I still did). No chance in hell I'd even attempt it.

I guess MA are hoping the markup will soon fall but even so it still sounds bad.

I think I'll let other people beta test it for me :laugh:
 
SpikeBlack said:
:eek: thats almost 1/3 of my monthly deposit (if I still did). No chance in hell I'd even attempt it.

I guess MA are hoping the markup will soon fall but even so it still sounds bad.

I think I'll let other people beta test it for me :laugh:
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Well submitted a support case to see if they can explain why anyone would even attempt this

---------------------------------

I attempted to use the new game function "Upgrade item tier" on my OF-105 and the result was unsuccessful. In your news you stated there was an 95% item salvage chance, however I received 44 Peds of Animal Residue considering the low drop rate of the materials involved I purchased the items needed for the upgrade attempt and the 95% salvage rate returned as residue is very poor. The item salvage rate should return part of the items used not some residue which is pure TT value.

Please can you investigate this serious issue as with only a 50% change of success this will put people off trying this in future.

Please feel free to remove the 44 Ped from my Ped Card (As I indeed TT the residue) and refund the 95% items used as I have lost $20 in this attempt.

FYI this support case has been posted on EF link below to see other members responses.

EF link https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ajor-tier-upgrade-process-20.html#post2221765

--------------------------------------------
Your support case 177122 has been sent.
--------------------------------------------

will post when I get a response
 
Good luck but I've got a feeling it will one of the standard cut and paste replies.
 
Sorry, i didn't have the time to go through all the thread.
I have a question.. is it possible to upgrade an SGA version item with a non-SGA one?
 
Naifas Anaconda said:
Sorry, i didn't have the time to go through all the thread.
I have a question.. is it possible to upgrade an SGA version item with a non-SGA one?
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NO

You need the same item label as the upgradeable one.
 
Marco did speak of a substitute upgrade module instead of the second item requirement but thats 'to be added later'
 
Marco|FPC said:
Yes, that is a good summary of the process.
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actually, I see two different dice on the tier upgrade screen. one only has 2 numbers on it - success or fail, another one is a classical 20 scale - roll number 1 on it and item (replicator?) lost. two dice in a game means a little different odds than 1-50/51-95/96-100 =) but that's more like a side note.

what really interests me is the "replicator" thing. I wonder how much will it cost to make a maquette of the item? considering the odds to lose the replica, it should not cost another arm probably to get a single socket into item which already costed a kidney and this was meant to go into masses as I understood. ok, in L universe it might but will it also happen in UL? :scratch2:

another thing still hard to get is the numbers that should indicate the speed of tier unlocking. can those be made in a more obscure manner!?!?!? :laugh: so, bigger number means higher speed? in what units? why do the same kind of items have different numbers and how was/is it decided? :scratch2:


J.
 
kintoo said:
About 90% yes, but rather than loose all the items whey not get back 95% ish of the items used teh Tier I components have a low drop rate and are selling for 5000% + lol

If I got 90-95% of the items then fair enough but residue is worthless lol
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It's easy for me to say, I know, but it was your choice to click it. You could have just waited a couple of weeks. The markup on those things will probably drop to a tenth of what they are now, and we've been told that the system is going to change.
 
Janus said:
Good points here. I can only guess that the reason for keeping such a overbearing requirement stems from a secondary goal of the "tier system" (primary goal being abundantly clear), that being a method to "incentivize" the purging of many mid-level UL items from the game. Over the years, MA seems to have gradually made L items more appealing (i.e. Martial) yet the L market remains hindered somewhat by the sizeable amount of semi-decent UL items remaining in circulation (especially in the mid-level spectrum)

I presume that once MA/FPC actually get this debacle sorted, (or finally hires a consultant or two to ensure some of the recent half baked ideas floating from the dev team office receive proper time in the oven) that the chances of success in upgrading low to mid-level UL items will be favourable enough for many to risk a pony up to the Texas Tier Table.

Still, as you point out, with the loss of the second original item in jeopardy, its hard to see how MA will be able to set the range for failure percentage in such a way that will make this system appealing for widespread use, but also beneficial for them by not raising the bar of item efficiency if chances of success are too high.
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1. If the service would have more customers than when they introduced L items the old UL items wouldnt have such a high %age in usage as more people need more items and old UL Items do not drop often

2. As Marco said there will be some sort of dummy device as replacement for the second item needed on upgrade procedure - though I bet they will be rarer than MM and fetch such a high Markup price that the professional tire uppers and the dedicated ubers will use them for items like MM, ImkII etc. and for items with lets say MU around 1k ped it will be cheaper to use a second item. Remember the TT'ed UL OA-105 witch lead to the 1000 ped TT retrieval system? Same here for the real valuable items like MM and so on the usage of the dupe item is justified but all the Midlevel items will reduce in numbers over time.

3. If the dummy device would drop too often and aproching TT value it would become a moot point of haveing the need for a second item of the same kind to tire up so I think the dummy Item will have a very low droprate.
 
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layla54 said:
nope, more like 10% chance (at 50% success rate the chances are you have to attempt it twice, doubling the risk of loss)

Plus, the 5% improvement is only temporary, and can dissapear at any (pseudo-)randomised time as the "stackable" enhancer de-stacks, an comes at a price, the unlocking of tier 1 for example does not add 5% improvement alone, let alone a permanent improvement,
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No.

50% * 5% is 2.5% per attempt. The chances of being unsucessful and then losing an item si 2.5% not 5%, the chance of being unsucessful, keeping an item and trying again and then losing the item is 50%*95%*50%*5% = 1.18%

Do the maths before posting crap.

Chance of being sucessful first attempt is; 50%
Chance of losing item first attempt is; 2.5%
Chance of losing item after second failed attempt; 1.18%
Chance of failing 3 time in a row; 12.5%
Chance of still having your item (NOT loosing) after 3 failures occur; 85%
Chance of failing 1 attempt, salvaging + being sucessful second time;23.75%


I'm not gonna sit here writing out every possible out come. There is only a very slight chance of losing the item really. Personally I think its a fine system, although I agree it would be better if there were methods to limit risk further. That way you can out and out gamble, or be smarter at a higher cost.
 
Spinage said:
No.

50% * 5% is 2.5% per attempt. The chances of being unsucessful and then losing an item si 2.5% not 5%, the chance of being unsucessful, keeping an item and trying again and then losing the item is 50%*95%*50%*5% = 1.18%

Do the maths before posting crap.

Chance of being sucessful first attempt is; 50%
Chance of losing item first attempt is; 2.5%
Chance of losing item after second failed attempt; 1.18%
Chance of failing 3 time in a row; 12.5%
Chance of still having your item (NOT loosing) after 3 failures occur; 85%
Chance of failing 1 attempt, salvaging + being sucessful second time;23.75%


I'm not gonna sit here writing out every possible out come. There is only a very slight chance of losing the item really. Personally I think its a fine system, although I agree it would be better if there were methods to limit risk further. That way you can out and out gamble, or be smarter at a higher cost.
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You are assuming that there are two dice rolls per attempt. One for the upgrade and another for Salvage. Marco seems to have implied earlier in the thread that its only one dice roll not two and if you get 1-50 it all works everything is fine, 51-95 it doesn't work and you get tt residue and 96+ you fail and lose items.
 
I want that the second item is crafted item from the actuals crafting BPbooks.

For exemple, to upgrade an EP 40 mercenary, u must use xxx Basic engines, 13 Ep 10 self defence, 640 mann MPH ...

Make the actual useless usefull.
 
Spinage said:
No.

50% * 5% is 2.5% per attempt. The chances of being unsucessful and then losing an item si 2.5% not 5%, the chance of being unsucessful, keeping an item and trying again and then losing the item is 50%*95%*50%*5% = 1.18%

Do the maths before posting crap.

Chance of being sucessful first attempt is; 50%
Chance of losing item first attempt is; 2.5%
Chance of losing item after second failed attempt; 1.18%
Chance of failing 3 time in a row; 12.5%
Chance of still having your item (NOT loosing) after 3 failures occur; 85%
Chance of failing 1 attempt, salvaging + being sucessful second time;23.75%


I'm not gonna sit here writing out every possible out come. There is only a very slight chance of losing the item really. Personally I think its a fine system, although I agree it would be better if there were methods to limit risk further. That way you can out and out gamble, or be smarter at a higher cost.
Click to expand...

If the system works as Marco agreed to, you do have a 10% chance to lose the item. If it actually works with 2 dice rolls it is 5%.
 
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