Major tier upgrade process

Uni said:

i dont get what/why u ask that? as u can see it's a quote from EF, and
if u click on that small "triangle" icon behind Marco's name, it will bring u to orig.post

(i suggest also using in search section "MA/Fpc posts", it's a great feature)

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I believe Safara is trying to underline that there are players that don't have access to EF. If this crucial information is posted only here, then some players will not know about it. Think they'd probably find out it's important item when they see the loot window, though.

MarieWoodell said:

Thank you for explaining this for all the people whining that its encouraging scamming.

I'm fairly sure that when Marco and Ma are refering to haveing tier upgrading as a profession they mean in this capacity. someone goes to the effort of upgrading a gun etc and then sells it on auction so normal people can buy it and the only person risking anything is the tier upgrader.

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I wonder if that was also their thought behind Colouring and Texturising? I bet it was, not to have a few people skilled in it and others go to them. Remember, even with that, items are being handed over at the trust of those providing the service, and it can take a long time to build up that trust. I've been there, done it, so I know. And when people ask for collateral on a basic shirt it can lead to an amusing conversation.

I can't see many people doing this as a profession the way you mean. After all what would be the point? Tiering up (L) stuff gives no skillgain on the Tier Upgrader profession (at least with upto Tier 3 (L) faps as I tested it) so skilling up (L), so far, looks totally useless. It could be you get gain on higher Tiers but those few rare items that can reach that level will probably just about reach a good one when they are almost dead and worthless to sell on. More info on any skillgain on (L) is needed.

As for on Unlimited items, it'll only be on the normal crap stuff that rarely sells anyway as it'll be cheaper to skill on. The only ones I can see it being useful for is Maddox IV's and that type of thing. Who is going to buy, then upgrade good UL/UL SIB stuff to sell on? Sure, they could buy and upgrade one in a day but then they have to find a buyer to sell it again which could take several weeks, just as it does now. Then we get the moans about people being resellers and price manipulation.

Having heard for years of scams where people were going around, especially at SC, advertising to upgrade armour and weapons, they now implement the exact thing. At least before everyone could tell new people, don't give it to them, it's a scam. Now what do they say? Even those who may start trying to do this as a legitimate profession in the way colouring works and offering collateral will just end up being called a scammer all day long while trying to advertise their service.

there should be a interface like when you change your body for this upgrade profession to really work, where you place the weapon/item and/or the resources needed and the fee into a window and you see the Chance of Upgrade/the Salvage rate and the whole process while the Upgrader does his job.

about this:

Originally Posted by Marco|FPC said:

Well, if you happen to stumble upon an Upgrade Replicator, I'd suggest you don't TT it. ,-)

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What do you all think? Either they drop in masses so their MU will be low and the usage of a second similar item in the tier up process is moot or they drop as seldom as MM's or Mod Fap's and for that reason their Marketprice will be as high as the items it is needed to tier up, so the upgrade costs for MM's etc. would be nearly the same or at least if the chance of loosing it is 5% the cost would be around 1/20th of the Marketvalue of this Upgrade Replicator witch when dropped as seldom as I think they will and as you can use it as a replacement for a MM, ImkII, Terminator etc. will fetch a pretty penny and willbe useless for normal midlevel weapons - same a swith Squals TT'ed OA105 and the then introduced 1K ped fee for retrival of TT'ed items.

MM's etc. it will be surely advisable to use this costly device, Midlevel items with prices below some K ped it will be no use to use the Upgrade Replicator as the costs for using it would most probabely be higher then a second item of the same kind.

Raffaele Meiers said:

there should be a interface like when you change your body for this upgrade profession to really work, where you place the weapon/item and/or the resources needed and the fee into a window and you see the Chance of Upgrade/the Salvage rate and the whole process while the Upgrader does his job.

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I think this idea is good !

By adding the secondary item as an ingredient we also get a drain in the economy concerning unlimited items. Drains are essential to have in the Entropia economy system. With a drain in place we have more ability to adjust the balancing and increase drop rates of unlimited items; something we believe is good for the community as a whole.

This was copied from the FPC site under the tier explanation. I really dont think this is the solution to people wishing they could loot a MM or mod fap....

MA, take away the risk involved, keep the ingredients as payment and be happy with the new income.

Duke said:

By adding the secondary item as an ingredient we also get a drain in the economy concerning unlimited items. Drains are essential to have in the Entropia economy system. With a drain in place we have more ability to adjust the balancing and increase drop rates of unlimited items; something we believe is good for the community as a whole.

This was copied from the FPC site under the tier explanation. I really dont think this is the solution to people wishing they could loot a MM or mod fap....

MA, take away the risk involved, keep the ingredients as payment and be happy with the new income.

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I think that explaination dont match with MA wish for economie...
Why the hell they keep making drop tons of UL item ( special the new one in SGA) , if they know it need a drain , and that drain will create problem...
Not much player will use the tier BS if the item is costly...

I think MA point is devaluate the "old" UL item , with introduction of new UL item that drop allready with tier...
also ,people will use even more the L item now...

merry xmas ma , hope u wake up and correct that bs system, and that bs skill which dosnt change anything

Etopia said:

I think that explaination dont match with MA wish for economie...
Why the hell they keep making drop tons of UL item ( special the new one in SGA) , if they know it need a drain , and that drain will create problem...
Not much player will use the tier BS if the item is costly...

I think MA point is devaluate the "old" UL item , with introduction of new UL item that drop allready with tier...
also ,people will use even more the L item now...

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I do not think that is what MA has in mind. firstly, they told it more than 2 years ago that both L and UL are included in the future plans. I do see only positive side of having UL - people have a reason do deposit bigger amounts. in L world it is not mandatory to get an item. remember, MA wants to bring in the big fish aswell... =)

secondly, I am confident that MA will not risk losing old players by devaluating their items. reason? read the last line from previous section. so, I think the plans of MA may include raising the prices of UL even more in the future and they will.

by the way, by creating UL sib items and removing old schools stuff from loot, MA shot themselves in foot. yes, they gained control over how many items should drop according to player skill levels (for instance : one X5 per 100 players in the required skills region). but what they lowered is the fun for lower levels to loot something special to have The Fun without skills. I personally would award that decision "THE BIGGEST MISTAKE since 2006" award.

back to the topic. ahh, the sockets - the new era. well, Marco was right in one thing, do not tt the replicator. the first 100 of them will sell for far more than 10 ped for example dmg enhancers. IF it'll continue +5% every step, ouch - total bonus of 275%...

I predict it'll be like this. the first replicators will sell for 10-30k ped. they will be looted enough so that the price will go down 10 times in half a year (usual graph of new items prices). after the price of it is down, the prices of UL stuff start moving up. yes, it all would mean that MA will gain enough of new blood to support it but according to the grand plan it has a rather good chance of coming true. if it will not, game over. no, not only to those owning expensive UL...


J.

MarieWoodell said:

I'm fairly sure that when Marco and Ma are refering to haveing tier upgrading as a profession they mean in this capacity. someone goes to the effort of upgrading a gun etc and then sells it on auction so normal people can buy it and the only person risking anything is the tier upgrader.

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its one hell of an expensive profession to skill then. Atleast with normal craft skilling you can use a much cheaper blueprint until you've reached high enough to attempt the more expensive items.

This (if my information is correct) could cost 40-50ped an attempt and or the loss of component markup as you get residue returned not the original components.

Plus you've got to have a ready supply of weapons ready for tiering otherwise you've got to raise them to to that point yourself, incuring the costs of using UL. Would you sell an opalo you've just used until it ready for tiering at TT? I know I wouldn't so you've got another markup there.

To be honest, if an L raises its tier a lot faster than UL then it may be more efficient for people to just buy a L weapon use it until it reachest its highest tier and then sell them on at that point.

tbh MA / FPC's biggest problem is that they've got a load of highly skilled players that only an extreme few will ever join using 10/10 UL weapons very efficiently.

Do not use it!!!!

VU 10.7.
Secondary item will be deleted from upgrade process and all lost items will be restored.

no no that would be too kind, as we all know MA/FPC it is likely that

for tier 1 you gonna need 1 extra item

for tier 2 you gonna need 2 extra items

for tier 3 you gonna need 4 extra items

hi hi hi , didnt it happen to the decay of clothes, extra paint cans and making textures?

when they ever going to make it easier for us? hmm wel ok maybe the sweat cannon was the best , but then you only get 1~4 sweat each time now lol

I think I know what the game I mentioned earlier was, but sadly, I can't mention it on this forum, but I will just say it has a few million players and... Leave it at that

It's name starts with 'F'...

It was a bad idea in that game, and its a WORSE idea in this one.

It is stealing items system....it is very bad gambling...and many players leaving EU for it........many depositing players...there will stay only very rich players and noobs....

karelmib said:

It is stealing items system....it is very bad gambling...and many players leaving EU for it........many depositing players...there will stay only very rich players and noobs....

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If dont like the ssytem dont use it

Executioner said:

If dont like the ssytem dont use it

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Typical EU community response

i want upgrade my items. But for 100-1000 USD not for 5000-50000USD per item. I mean tier1 - tier10.

karelmib said:

i want upgrade my items. But for 100-1000 USD not for 5000-50000USD per item. I mean tier1 - tier10.

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according to MA's rationale, the tiering or upgrade process gives your items an advantage proportional to its value (because the benefit for every tier is a percentage of the base stats). so, more expensive items should be proportionally more risky (or expensive) to upgrade. in other words, a linear cost would give the best items an (even more) unfair advantage.

i'm not saying that the solution to "risk" a similar item is the best option. but the risk (or cost) should be proportional, not linear, to achieve MA's design goal. another option would have been simply to make the unlimited items non upgradable, but probably that's even more drastic. at least now you have the option to ignore the upgrade option and not use it (as yourself proposed in one of your previous posts).

jdegre said:

according to MA's rationale, the tiering or upgrade process gives your items an advantage proportional to its value (because the benefit for every tier is a percentage of the base stats). so, more expensive items should be proportionally more risky (or expensive) to upgrade. in other words, a linear cost would give the best items an (even more) unfair advantage.

i'm not saying that the solution to "risk" a similar item is the best option. but the risk (or cost) should be proportional, not linear, to achieve MA's design goal. another option would have been simply to make the unlimited items non upgradable, but probably that's even more drastic. at least now you have the option to ignore the upgrade option and not use it (as yourself proposed in one of your previous posts).

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Good explenaton why the rule is there. If you didn't need an extra item, the forums would have been spammed with complaints how ubers once again get the long straw.

Jdegre nailed it. This system is specifically aimed at offering a broader range of options to the middle and lower end of the market, without excluding the upper end. It's actually one of the few recent implementations that is performing as expected.

And it's not all milk and honey for the lower end either. The cost ratio is different, with the second item being by far the least of the cost in many cases, and the other components aren't exactly raining down.

I believe there are still things to learn about the system, but my first impression is that it's probably going to lift activity at the lower end of the economy, and that's good for everybody.

Witte said:

Good explenaton why the rule is there.

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not really. its a reaction to the design of the system, which seems flawed. the stats dont have to increase as much. for example, tier 1 accuracy, +20% bonus... theres not enough head room to make any more than a couple of tiers work. so higher tiers will necessarily be lower increase for more effort/risk. it could have been designed differently, with long use required to tier and the "drain" balance coming from poorer eco, other stats etc. frankly it would have been more honest to have made UL non-tiered for all the use it has.

aridash said:

not really. its a reaction to the design of the system, which seems flawed. the stats dont have to increase as much. for example, tier 1 accuracy, +20% bonus... theres not enough head room to make any more than a couple of tiers work. so higher tiers will necessarily be lower increase for more effort/risk. it could have been designed differently, with long use required to tier and the "drain" balance coming from poorer eco, other stats etc. frankly it would have been more honest to have made UL non-tiered for all the use it has.

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The system just doesn't work the way you want it to work. Doesn't mean its flawed.

Witte said:

The system just doesn't work the way you want it to work. Doesn't mean its flawed.

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indeed it isnt the way i want it to work. but the point is that the explaination about the second item being for balance, which many have a problem with, is a product of how the system has been created so is not really much of an explaination. if the advances of a tiered items were not so disproportional (and apparently regressive, a massive flaw in everyones eyes surely?) they wouldnt need such an severe method to balance.

aridash said:

indeed it isnt the way i want it to work. but the point is that the explaination about the second item being for balance, which many have a problem with, is a product of how the system has been created so is not really much of an explaination.

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At least for the first tier-up, it would have been nice with the option of not having to provide a "secondary item", but to risk the item you have.

For the purpose of removing items from game this way, it shouldn't matter for MA if it's the primary item or the secondary item that's gone.

Though, in a way they explains why: Only rich people (who either have 2 simular items or have the possibility of supplying collateral to borrow that second item) - ie "dedicated players" - should be allowed to tier up their items.

For upgrading to tiers higher than 1 the secondary item might make sense - if you're upgrading something from level 9 to level 10, you'd prefer to lose a level 0 item than the level 9 item.

Maybe, though, there is a risk that this tier up system will create a new unbalance in the future: Let's say ubers today tier up their mm's a lot of levels. One or two will disappear and go into the loot pool and eventually be looted - but then those will be hard to upgrade, since noone who has a level > 1 one wants to risk it by upgrading someone elses level 0... And because it's the lesser level ones that are lost a few mm's might be tiered up considerably while the new ones will be practically impossible to tier up.

aia said:

... and go into the loot pool and eventually be looted ...

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Maybe, or maybe not. All this relooting-nice-items thing sounds a bit like wishful thinking.

Take care,
BBB

aridash said:

indeed it isnt the way i want it to work. but the point is that the explaination about the second item being for balance, which many have a problem with, is a product of how the system has been created so is not really much of an explaination. if the advances of a tiered items were not so disproportional (and apparently regressive, a massive flaw in everyones eyes surely?) they wouldnt need such an severe method to balance.

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But then people would be complaining that enhancers are shit and useless for their high-end item. If the stats don't really get better, whats the point?

It was never mentioned that the same UL items lost during a tiering would go back into the loot pool, only that they believed UL items should be part of the loot.

Chance of success

any one worked out how to improve the success rate and the salvage rates
Regards
Jagger

Jaggar said:

any one worked out how to improve the success rate and the salvage rates
Regards
Jagger

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You make lots of attempts at tiering items to improve the persons professional level at it. Someone has already started a thread requesting tier 0.9 tt items I believe in order to do this.

Wow.. What a thread..

But let me say this much, the information given to us about the Tiering system is not worth anything. No real explanation what so ever.

I asked MA what the Numbers mean in the Tiers "levels" because, Every theory that has been presented and considered, there has not one that effectively covers all of the things that we have seen happen.

My Opalo reads "Tier 1 ----- 120", my firend's reads "Tier 1 ---- 85" there is no discernible logic or reasonable explanation why theirs would read differently than mine even though they are the same gun purchased from the same TT in Nea's. Also, what actions/damage accumulation/ammo spent/crits dealt/personal skill gain is used to determine the increase in tier lvl?

When I sent a support case to them trying to gain some explanation or guidelines, this is the answer I got:

2009-12-22 23:30 Entropia Universe Support:


Hi,
Thank you for your report. We are currently evaluating the reactions to the Version Update and your feedback will be considered in this process. Future information will be posted on the News section of our website.
Thank you for your patience and Happy Holidays!
Kind regards,
Entropia Universe Support

So, in short, they are more concerned with if people will be happy with what changes they made with no explanation as to what is going on or how even the most basic system will work. This sounds like they are testing us to see what they can force feed us and get away with, then if there is enough complaint about the system the implemented, they will adjust it to show that they are willing to work with you to make you happy (this reminds me of the 2PEC decay on armor to equip, that was "Adjusted" to 1PEC after there were enough complaints about it) and that was all loaded under the guise of helping to lower lag in densely populated areas. which in reality did nothing but line their pockets even more.

So, why set up a system that makes no sense. I have a friend who spend over 170PEDs on repairs on a Katsuichi Determination and has yet to reach Tier .01, I on the other hand only spent around 70PEDs in repairs (on same sword)and have already reached 01.
Our skill levels are almost exactly the same so it should not be such a large difference in advancement in tiers on the same weapon. This goes with out saying for the Korss 400(l)'s we both own. He has put more ammo through it, had more decay as a result and he has not even reached tier .6 and as for me, I have already reached .08 with less than half of the ammo usage.

The suggestion to MA is that "Tier" leveling up an item (no matter what it is) should be consistent throughout the game.. If it would take (for exsample - so many number of Criticals to reach a tier or let us all say skill lines in that area - rifle skills, longblade, handgun and for armor so many hit damage it takes) but it should be the same throughout the game. The numbers do not make sense Why would my opalo read different than the person next to me. Opalo's are all the same. They use the same amount of ammo and they Max out at the same - so why should the Tier numbers be different for everyone who owns one?

AGAIN MA has no explanation for this. I feel if we as a whole community make a stand and complain in regards to this then they would have to make some changes..

I know that many of you have spent a lot and I mean a lot of PEDs to even get to Tier 1 on any one of your items, and then turn to a friend who many have spend half as much on their same item and they have already reached Tier 1. Come on PPl I hear some of you complain, but how many of you have registered a complaint in their support case area.

MA is going to have to do something about it if enough of us want explanations.


Granted I do love the game. I play for fun and enjoy talking with my friends. But what is the point and rules to the Tiering ?