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The Cleric Challenge - weapon vs loot

Mikass

Mikass

Marauder
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Posts
5,568
Avatar Name
Masak Mikass Keer
An interesting discussion got started about this statement Marco presumably made on IRC few years back:

"Loot is not influenced by skills. Loot is influenced partly by looting avatar, partly by weapon used and other factors".
Click to expand...

I`m proposing therefore a challenge to someone willing to hunt with Cleric Dagger 3C, a weapon with one of the worst decay ingame(3.214 max,2.230 average) but good speed. Had interesting results with this in the past as was weapon used to kill a MK4 looting merp stalker. You can easily find this ingame below +100 ped.

Will give 5k EFD to first who posts 10 runs with full tt weapon on his mob of choice.
Also 1k EFD for ones that come after as some more conclusive results wouldn`t hurt.

Results might show higher probability to loot some decent item or more chance for globals or hofs. Who wants to give it a shot?

Don`t forget to tell us about your real eco dam/pec on the weapon based on your skills. Can check it here http://www.entropiatools.com/avgdmgpec.php Just enter there your Hit Ability, Max and Min damage that`s shown on dagger.
 
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So who wants to take one for the team?
 
Subscribing :eek:
 
Cleric Dagger vs Proteron FTW :wtg:

Now that would be a worthy hunting log to read :)
 
Skippie already did such a test with imp SEB. The friendly search button will reveal just how well it went.
 
I also noticed increase in loot quality when i was doing my Cold-ir ugprade runs (compared to (L) rifles/pistols of the same class). Might be just random/coincedence though.
 
Immortal said:
Skippie already did such a test with imp SEB. The friendly search button will reveal just how well it went.
Click to expand...

Ye sure but I have reasons to believe was little biased + that imp 7 blade has better dam/pec than the cleric dagger.
 
Immortal said:
Skippie already did such a test with imp SEB. The friendly search button will reveal just how well it went.
Click to expand...

Imp SEB is not the same as Cleric Dagger 3C, just like a MM is not identical to an EP-40... ;).
 
Tekkie said:
Cleric Dagger vs Proteron FTW :wtg:

Now that would be a worthy hunting log to read :)
Click to expand...

hmm i may give that a try :)

but will it last long enough to kill one ?


...I can just imagine someone starting a log and half way thru killing mob it breaks - Epic fail ...lmao
 
i dont understand how loot could be decided like this, and what would happen if it were like this and you used 10 different weapons on the same mob?
 
Scoutnisse said:
i dont understand how loot could be decided like this, and what would happen if it were like this and you used 10 different weapons on the same mob?
Click to expand...

Magnus would appear on your screen and start screaming at you: "who the fuck you think you are, Rambo?"
 
ohooh mememe :D

i'd gladly do 10 runs with a 3c .D love it, apart from the eco that is :D

im somewhere above lvl 40 in dmg and hit on sb, no killer skills but whatever
 
I do a fair bit of hunting Hoggs and Leviathans with:
3C @ ~lvl 30
AdjV1 @ ~ lvl 61
(ML35 as tagger)

A fair bit of difference in eco for those 2 weapons, not least considering the pro lvl differences. No scientific data, but I do not notice any difference in general loot value. No items looted.

I might start to record the loot value for comparison although I very much doubt there will be a difference.

Or did you only suggest that the weapon would make a difference in what items were looted?
 


more like cleric madness

got 2 of them and will do them 2 at a time

average eco 1,847 :silly:
 
first 2 down ^^
 
done 8 runs now 2 to go, but ill do them tomorrow -.- i need some zzzz
 
Best way to test this would be to actually record individual mob loots for about 100 mobs with one eco weapons, then do it with 1 uneco weapon (same maturity, same mob). Then work out the median for both runs, not the mean.

The mean will vary based on tons of things, like if you hoffed or globalled etc, which unless your gonna kill 1000s of mobs, is just too high variance... median will be consistent (or not if weapons do chance loot).

Doubt many people have patience for this... does anyone know a program that could record that?
 
Spinage said:
Best way to test this would be to actually record individual mob loots for about 100 mobs with one eco weapons, then do it with 1 uneco weapon (same maturity, same mob). Then work out the median for both runs, not the mean.

The mean will vary based on tons of things, like if you hoffed or globalled etc, which unless your gonna kill 1000s of mobs, is just too high variance... median will be consistent (or not if weapons do chance loot).

Doubt many people have patience for this... does anyone know a program that could record that?
Click to expand...

There was a program made by a player to record loot but I`ve never used it. Forgot the name but you should be able to find it with somewhere.
 
Spinage said:
The mean will vary based on tons of things, like if you hoffed or globalled etc, which unless your gonna kill 1000s of mobs, is just too high variance... median will be consistent (or not if weapons do chance loot).
Click to expand...

Globals and hofs are loot, man. Because once you remove them, you get @ 40-50% TT return. Exactly that's the problem, that them should be aberation, but you can't consider them so.

I mean you personally can consider them whatever, but that wouldn't affect how stuff actually works.

And I say them need to be included because with globals and HoFs, on very large number of events, you're still under 100%. Sometimes under 90%. If HoFs would be aberation, their effect should perpetuate, no?

Besides, incidency of globals differ upon hp of mob. Higher hp mob will tend to give more global. Because "global" is an arbitrary measurement setup by MA who established that when individual loot >= 50 ped, then some animation and audio effects are triggered. Moreover, of them globlals, highest 100 of them become HoF.

Is just loot. If tomorrow MA increases the global limit to 143, so 120 peds doesn't have swirls anymore, that would be the only difference versus yesterday. The absence/presence of animation, not the absence/presence of loot itself in window.
 
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Scoutnisse said:
i dont understand how loot could be decided like this, and what would happen if it were like this and you used 10 different weapons on the same mob?
Click to expand...

Imagine. Because most players use a finisher...

You blast a mob down using a high dmg mid-uber weapon and then finish it with a < mid weapon and the loot gets influenced by the finisher and not the main weapon

:rofl:
 
Mikass said:
An interesting discussion got started about this statement Marco presumably made on IRC few years back:
Click to expand...

could you provide a link to this discussion, in your OP?

thanks,

jay :)
 
Kerham said:
Globals and hofs are loot, man. Because once you remove them, you get @ 40-50% TT return. Exactly that's the problem, that them should be aberation, but you can't consider them so.

I mean you personally can consider them whatever, but that wouldn't affect how stuff actually works.

And I say them need to be included because with globals and HoFs, on very large number of events, you're still under 100%. Sometimes under 90%. If HoFs would be aberation, their effect should perpetuate, no?

Besides, incidency of globals differ upon hp of mob. Higher hp mob will tend to give more global. Because "global" is an arbitrary measurement setup by MA who established that when individual loot >= 50 ped, then some animation and audio effects are triggered. Moreover, of them globlals, highest 100 of them become HoF.

Is just loot. If tomorrow MA increases the global limit to 143, so 120 peds doesn't have swirls anymore, that would be the only difference versus yesterday. The absence/presence of animation, not the absence/presence of loot itself in window.
Click to expand...


Well, to start you'd get the same median, so then all that is left is proving that the average global/hof with a uneco weapon is bigger than average hof of eco weapon :).

You can't just use the means though, too many swings.

Unless you did several runs each with each weapon and took means of each run so you can see the variance already, then decide if there is a consistent upwards swing through many runs on an uneco weapon.

There's lot's of ways of doing it really, but taking a median and then doing a 'relatively' short test on who gets the biggest globals/hofs averaged over 10 or so is the shortest, easiest way.
 
It is known to a lot of players that a avatars operating cost over a hunt has a impact on the loot, how this works is still unknown.

some have done testing concerning this others are just observing this over time spent and experience in game.

one high skilled avatar with mm, imp fap, hunting naked will have a lower avg loot over a lower skilled avatar with doaLM, 2600 and armored in say angel.

now if this can be considered a "loot pool" "without items in it" attached to that avatar or greater calculations when that avatar loots the mob is not known.

some of us try to keep our ped spent/hour as high as we can when hunting but stay as eco as we can. move from mob to mob as fast as you can but stay eco.

its still accepted that the first avatar will do better as the the chance to get a global, hof, ect is higher because they can kill more mobs for less and each one has the same chance to global, hof, ect for all of us.

I believe this to be true and found it to be so over years now, most noted with 2 cases.

5 or so years ago taping aurli and then slowly killing with a mann mph in dome 4 gave a low average return around 85-110% and when I would go in dome 1 with plated nem, fap110, and doa strike-dante, my cost went up and also my average loot. with this came much greater risk so my average return was more dependent on how they where looting at the time. Note I would send weeks up there at a time.

around the same time hunting atrox in pvp 2 with decoys gave lower returns in the same way over a tank n spank combo,

in short your best bet is to play it smart and eco but the system will adjust for a unknown amount of none eco hunting in a unknown range.

in more modern times I am unable to hunt the mobs I once hunted after re rolling my avatar, once I can skill back up to level 50 ish in laser hg ill be in the range of such mobs again.

I wish you the best of luck in your testing you have much work ahead of you.:D
 
I did some quick counting to see if it was possible to kill a Proteon young with Cleric Dagger 3C at my level.

Heres the conclution ( at lvl 61 Knifefighter Hit and 68 Knifefighter Dmg)

Blade has 520 uses until broke, this gives the values below
Min dmg: 18,90
Avg dmg: 28,00
Max dmg: 45,00

Amount of Dmg I can do until knife breaks
Min : 9828,00
Avg: 14560,00
Maxx 23400,00

A Proteon Young has 5410 HP and regenerates 10.4 HP/Seconds (from wiki)

This gives the following time used to Kill one in minutes incl regen.

MINIMUM DMG
Time :5,50 min
Dmg needed: 7791,54
Max nr of Mobs 1,26

AVARAGE DMG
Time :3,34 min
Dmg needed: 7017,54
Max nr of Mobs 2,07

MAXIMUM DMG
Time : 1,90 min
Dmg needed: 6410,25
Max nr of Mobs 3,65

So I could kill 1 young perhaps 2 at max speed (no fapping) before the blade breaks, I couldnt find regen info for mature or olds so I only checked youngs.

Now to put these calculations into action :p Maybe next time im down from CP :p
 
A long time ago I used to carry a 3C around as a backup weapon. I tried straight hunting with the 3C and the results were bad. And this was when loot return was better because the average eco was lower (no L stuff then).

I'm not sure I believe that what you get in loot is related to the weapon you use, either.
 
Mice said:
I did some quick counting to see if it was possible to kill a Proteon young with Cleric Dagger 3C at my level.

Heres the conclution ( at lvl 61 Knifefighter Hit and 68 Knifefighter Dmg)

Blade has 520 uses until broke, this gives the values below
Min dmg: 18,90
Avg dmg: 28,00
Max dmg: 45,00

Amount of Dmg I can do until knife breaks
Min : 9828,00
Avg: 14560,00
Maxx 23400,00

A Proteon Young has 5410 HP and regenerates 10.4 HP/Seconds (from wiki)

This gives the following time used to Kill one in minutes incl regen.

MINIMUM DMG
Time :5,50 min
Dmg needed: 7791,54
Max nr of Mobs 1,26

AVARAGE DMG
Time :3,34 min
Dmg needed: 7017,54
Max nr of Mobs 2,07

MAXIMUM DMG
Time : 1,90 min
Dmg needed: 6410,25
Max nr of Mobs 3,65

So I could kill 1 young perhaps 2 at max speed (no fapping) before the blade breaks, I couldnt find regen info for mature or olds so I only checked youngs.

Now to put these calculations into action :p Maybe next time im down from CP :p
Click to expand...

regen for those high regen mobs is extremely simple.

1% per second.
 
Scoutnisse said:
i dont understand how loot could be decided like this, and what would happen if it were like this and you used 10 different weapons on the same mob?
Click to expand...

Well, the system does track how much you use each weapon to kill a mob, which is used to determine what types of kill bonus skills you get. So potentially it could factor the different weapons in on a percentage basis.
 
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