Should NEVERDIE be banned?

I loved your old Phasm LA and today yours Dome 16 and 17 at CND.

So really except for other peoples perceptions there really isn't any reason for me to not hunt occasionally even on ROcktropia. I really feel u have to be a pro hunter and miner and put in many hours a day to actually profit, if all you do is short excursions like me, I think the outcome is going to be pretty random.

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"Employees of the company and their affiliates, members of their family, or anyone else involved either directly or indirectly with the running of this competition is expressly forbidden from entering it, and will be ineligible to win or participate."

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Good points on both sides of this. Maybe if Neverdie wins big he can donate a good chunk of the profits to some worthy cause?.. EFD Growth Fund seems to be one of those!

I think having Neverdie in game will benefit us all. I have seen him talking to many new players at the City of dreams. He is getting a view from the players view that will allow him to see what works and what doesn't and he is in a position to fix things or at least suggest them directly to the development team.

I think he does a great job as a planet developer. IMO, he would have a lot of success if he will focus on that. The graphics on RT are far superior to what is on Calypso. And that means a lot. And I am sure that place, on the long run, will bring a lot more than whatever he may get from his avatar on Calypso.

Insider knowledge of ND well who carre ?
There is way more knowledge at MA office , or some MA IRL close friend and familly ...
Should all people relative to MA be banned ?

And what power exactly give that knowledge ?

IMHO its take the problem wrong way.
The system should be designed ( and i guess it is) that any knowledge can give a real advantage...

Yes , someone who may know what mobs will come in game and what domage they do could buy bunch of the armor that go with it...But wait , anyone with money could do the same ...
In fact , anyone with money could simply buy all black red or purple armor puch price up and ressell them for highter price...
Does someone really need insider info to do that ?

Also about the loot , it should be made such a way that info should no give real advantage...
Its not because someone design proteron that he will know what proteron hold the 250k ATH with mod fap...

If people are afraid about market , or people that work at MA use game to get rich...why dont you wonder what happen if someone at MA just fill up his friend storage with mod fap ?
After all , why bother to manipulate market using some dumb info , why not simply create items ?

Why not wonder about your avatar security ?
Afterall , people at MA can know evrything about you or your avatar...
Why bother with some dumb knowledge abuse?why not simply log with someone avatar and give his storage to your friend ?


Back to ND... why ban him ?
because knowledge?so , where is limit ?should we ban all his familly ?
His friend?
And why not his neightbourgh...maybe while he go drink coffé at next bar on the morning to get his news paper , he make deal with the bartender...
I know , lets ban the whole town where he live... but to be sure .. lets ban the whole country... or all people that use same language... I know ... lets ban whole planet...

Problem is not who we should ban or not...
Problem is , does the system is made such a way that knoledge does not give to much power at the one who got it...

Also, to put things in perspective...

Rocktropia is a new planet. NEVERDIE Studios currently supports 11 full time employees (excluding me) and we still need a few more people before I feel we are a complete team, a lot of people are wearing multiple caps at the moment.

I have 3 kids now, 10, 3 and 6 weeks

You know the expression. " don't quit your day job!"

Well Being NEVERDIE is still my day Job, running NEVERDIE studios and trying to establish a new planet is still a work in progress and it might be a while before I can draw a paycheck from RT.

BlackHawk said:

I think he does a great job as a planet developer. IMO, he would have a lot of success if he will focus on that. The graphics on RT are far superior to what is on Calypso. And that means a lot. And I am sure that place, on the long run, will bring a lot more than whatever he may get from his avatar on Calypso.

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sorry

i cant agree on the looks
but then again it might be something to do with taste.
it's just what a certain person likes most.
glad for that otherwise it would be a very boring planet irl.

rock tropia is not my thing i do not like the WOW look a like creatures but the wide streets in neverdie city ,,,,,, me as rl drag racer me like those streets.

i hope EU will give use nice customizible car's that we can style and tune.

ow and i wander what will happen if i drice full trottle into a mob or zombie, would they bounce off or not , Mwah that would be so much fun.

but going off topic now.

and neverdie , if u ever have to give up CND ..... maybe i can take it over making a it a lease/buy deal lol

greets sid

Thanks for replying to the thread ND, and i hope that you can continue to play in EU. However the one thing that smacks of double standards is that Hanne had to give up her avatar to take a much lesser position than yourself as a planet partner employee. That is the main thing that keeps rolling over in my mind at least, and is leaving a wide open reason for possible bad publicity in the coming months. Yourself having an avatar and business interests within EU as well as effectively being the "Marco" of Rocktropia is just painting a big target on yourself imo.

I really do hope that you can continue to play as ND, but i feel it would be wise to release a statement from Ma/yourself detailing exactly what information etc you will be privvy to. If this is not done openly you must be aware of the rumours and discontent from many that could come from not being 110% open and honest.

I am kinda undecided, on one hand you are a nice guy and have done loads to promote EU, on the other this Employee bit and Hanne seems to niggle at me.

Good luck with ND studio's and your endeavours.

Rock On Dibbler



.

Should he be banned? Yes!

..why? idk

NEVERDIE said:

I have 3 kids now, 10, 3 and 6 weeks

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Having 3 kids within 7 weeks is impressive

NEVERDIE said:

Also, to put things in perspective...

Rocktropia is a new planet. NEVERDIE Studios currently supports 11 full time employees (excluding me) and we still need a few more people before I feel we are a complete team, a lot of people are wearing multiple caps at the moment.

I have 3 kids now, 10, 3 and 6 weeks

You know the expression. " don't quit your day job!"

Well Being NEVERDIE is still my day Job, running NEVERDIE studios and trying to establish a new planet is still a work in progress and it might be a while before I can draw a paycheck from RT.

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*waves hands! I like being in the sunshine! I was born for Hollywood! What jobs are going? I could bring some quality tea with me!

As for the banning thing naaah, I'd rather everyone involved in MA FPC ROCKTROPIA CYRENE etc staff play it, at least they have a proper 'perspective' on the 'game' from a player point of view.

So play on!

Jamhot

Jamhot

lolz *just thought of 'boys from the blackstuff', gizza job! lol

If any one else can

' Give a commentary like NEVER DIE during CL or any events '

then ban him . If not ? no

- NO would be my answer even if he knows the dynamics of the game as i don't see the need for him to use them for his benefit.

Regards,
Mylcat

Just something that comes to my mind each time I see this chain of arguments.
The chain I mean is --> FPC is planet partner --> Hanne has to give up her avatar --> why can other planet partners have "real" avatars?

Well this logic is flawed due to the circumstances that FPC was split directly from MA, thus some people still have quite some inside informations and also FPC has strong bonds towards MA.
I would not be surprised if we see FPC staff avatars roam EU as fully qualified avatars like each of us in about like 2-3 years.
To have Hanne return as Skam would be nice in my opinion

ND has really been the face of EU for many years. Banning his avvy wouldn't accomplish much. I can't count the times how many newer players have 'gushed' to me about having met him in-game ... and he talked to them!!! He's definitely a star here.

As Etopia said: "There is way more knowledge at MA office , or some MA IRL close friend and family ..."

It's not much different than anyone working at any company and having a bit of an advantage. That said, there are laws against insider trading.. just ask Martha Stewart. That was supposedly a friend with knowledge saying something and her acting upon it. It's no different at MA offices I'm sure.

An employee of any company could say something in conversation and not even realize they are providing valuable information to their friend.

I think it's MA policy for anyone they hire that was a player to sell their avatar. That said, Skam works for FPC but then they are all in the same place sooo.... I guess though there can be a direct comparison that she works for a planet partner and so does ND and all of his other employees. There's many other employees for other planet partners too.

ND not in Sweden but we all know he's close with many of the ppl at MA and FPC. Of course he is.. he's done more to promote EU than they ever have. Well, I'll restate that... he's successfully promoted EU better than they have.

There was a good point brought up about types of damage mobs do and items they drop. Yes, there is a potential for abuse prior to a release by a planet partner if they know in advance. ND hasn't addressed that question though... so I'll ask directly...

Do the planet partners in general decide new items or damage for the mobs or is that something that's directly controlled by MA? I would think there has to be some kind of 'balance' developed by them to be consistent within the current game / item types. Are they the ones that determine how much damage, or heal, or depth etc for new items?

I see no problems if the above answer is yes, that MA decides it. As far as the overall loot pool and balancing system (that's out of whack anyway since VU 9.0) that's all MA so doesn't matter.

For EF discussion:
This is all a unique business situation given the real money aspects to the game. Again, there's already laws about insider trading.. but do those types of laws apply to something like EU?? Contests prevent employees and relatives from winning.. does that apply here???? I honestly don't know the answer. I would though like to see a statement from MA saying what they do to control the flow of information and how they prevent employees from abusing the system??? What kind of 'general' policy's do they have in place? I'm sure they can't go into great detail and I wouldn't expect a lot of information on overall security. That's not the question. I think that would be a positive thing for all to know and good for MA to answer this themselves. I do think it's really needed at this point given the various planet partners as we all need to feel that we are on a level playing field. So.. Marco? Help us have some peace of mind please

Still looking forward to RT coming out of beta... right now... my noob butt just to noob for there.

This depends on how much he's involved in the inner game mechanics. If he's just creating content and hasn't had access to loot formulas or anything of that nature, then there's no harm in him playing. Just adding in content doesn't really give him any advantage though.

Etopia said:

Insider knowledge of ND well who carre ?
There is way more knowledge at MA office , or some MA IRL close friend and familly ...
Should all people relative to MA be banned ?

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They absolutely should at least not be allowed to participate as normal players anymore.

Gabriel said:

They absolutely should at least not be allowed to participate as normal players anymore.

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and where you put limit ?
Do you think it is possible to control to how many zillion people ND , or who ever that may got some knowledge can tell something , and then that person abuse that knowledge ?
Lets say MA "lock" , all avatar to all people that work there , and then all avatar of their familly member (that allready a bit big brother imho) , should they also lock the neightbour avatar ?
Afterall , who know if , marco , dont go drink some whiskey with his neightbourg and then tell stuff about game ...
So should we lock his neighbour ?
and why not that neightbour familly ?
Where is limit ?

Isnt more simple , and efficien to make the system that , even if people got knowledge they dont have advantage to use it ...

for now , what kind of knowledge may got ND that give him advantage over other player?

for now , what kind of knowledge may got ND that give him advantage over other player?

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For starters - Neverdie Studios developed the planet... In other words, he has advanced knowledge of every environment on Rocktropia, and probably Next Island too. He also knows the ai of the mobs, and probably their location and spawns. That gives him a distinct advantage over the average participant. Along with that he probably has a good idea on the size of various bounding boxes, etc... maybe even knows how far out to go before mobs go agro or even show up on radar. I'm sure there's a large number of other things someone in a developer role knows that could be used to an unfair advantage on some levels... Maybe he knows which mobs will be introduced at a later point. Maybe he knows that certain new parts of RT will need special equipment - and can manipulate the market on some level to get that stuff easier or sell it to others for profit, etc.

When apartments show up on RT, are they going to be in his inventory or the estate brokers to start out? Maybe if he knows the exact time when the apartments are going to be released, he'll buy up a lot of Calypso apartments becuase he knows Market Value on RT will be high, which may cause apartment value on Calypso to go up.

If there's a special event where there will be special loots, he'll probably know about it before anyone else, and can spread the word on to his friends if he doesn't want to loot the stuff himself to make it look unfair in globals, etc.

mastermesh said:

For starters - Neverdie Studios developed the planet... In other words, he has advanced knowledge of every environment on Rocktropia, and probably Next Island too. He also knows the ai of the mobs, and probably their location and spawns. That gives him a distinct advantage over the average participant.

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This you can find after 2 day of the opening place in entropadia...
What a great advantage for him ...

mastermesh said:

Along with that he probably has a good idea on the size of various bounding boxes, etc... maybe even knows how far out to go before mobs go agro or even show up on radar.

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anyone that hunt a bit something get to know that after some min he hunt a mobs...Again what a great advantage...

mastermesh said:

I'm sure there's a large number of other things someone in a developer role knows that could be used to an unfair advantage on some levels... Maybe he knows which mobs will be introduced at a later point.

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since he make mobs he know how they look ... is it an adavantage ?

mastermesh said:

Maybe he knows that certain new parts of RT will need special equipment - and can manipulate the market on some level to get that stuff easier or sell it to others for profit, etc.

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He can do that without any special knowledge...
What he payed for a dumb bank ?
He could have use that money to manipulate marquet of what ever he wish...
there is a big bunch of people with over 3M ped ( look at CP sale)...
With such money they can manipulate price of mod fap , shadow armor , or what ever in game that have some value...Buy all flat of the game , or all mall shop...You dont really need insider info to manipulate market , you need money and the will to do it...

mastermesh said:

When apartments show up on RT, are they going to be in his inventory or the estate brokers to start out? Maybe if he knows the exact time when the apartments are going to be released, he'll buy up a lot of Calypso apartments becuase he knows Market Value on RT will be high, which may cause apartment value on Calypso to go up.

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see above...

mastermesh said:

If there's a special event where there will be special loots, he'll probably know about it before anyone else, and can spread the word on to his friends if he doesn't want to loot the stuff himself to make it look unfair in globals, etc.

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Now we get to my point...So , the real advantage is not exactly for him , i dont think ND will gring for hours small argo to get the new super special item...But maybe some of his friend may have something to get out from his knowledge...
And yet again we are back to my point... what avatar should be locked ?
Every one that ND know ?
every one that someone at MA may know ?

i think its better that MA think the system , and organise event a way that , there is no real advantage to know something...

In your exemple ,lets say MA make an event to find a special item...and say that item will be put ramdom in one of the bot type...also lets say , you can find that item just during the event...
if MA anoounce the event simply ... that you have an item hidden in some robot ...then there is no advantage knowing anything...

There can be advantage if , and only if , the system is made that someone can know , the exact day , the exat spawn , and the exact mobs that will loot a particular item...
But i think , if such knowledge is possible to get , then there is a flow and a fault in the system...
No one , not even MA balancing manager , should be abel to predict such event...

I think that MA/ FPC/ Planet Partners should not only have, but be encouraged to have their own avatars and play with them and deposit/ withdraw money as well. With the limitation that everything above tt value of, say, 100 ped goes back to the game. When I was running my own online game, I had several avatars just to test if everything is ok for an unprivileged account. Besides, employees playing could mean that company is able to react a bit faster on what is happening ingame.

I don't think that Neverdie's avatar should be taken from him. I'm not a fan of the kind of hype he makes nor the type of personality (or rather publicity) he represents, but he seems to be more or less ok. Maybe a bit mental, but it's not my problem No offence ND please, it's sympathetic wink and nudge.

Most important: he was in this game for years and his presence here is part of the world, no matter if someone likes him or not. That's as close Entropia can get to indulging gameplay and playing in character as possible. And I doubt that even having some inside knowledge about the game mechanics gives significant advantage. People who have few cells of their brains working probably figured out these bits by themselves to extent sufficient for a fair competition.

There is one more thing: a tomb of person very important to Neverdie in the past is still on Calypso. I think that trying to take away his avatar from him would equal trying to take his past and memories from him. So I object.

I'm not one for banning things because of the "possibility" of abuse. That's how we lose things like {self-censored as it would open a Pandora's box of rule 3.6 issues}.

Well, the point is, I'm looking at Neverdie's tracker stats and quite frankly, I can't see anything different from what many thousand other players are doing.

• Sure he could manipulate certain markets.
• Sure he could have intimate knowledge about mob stats.
• Sure he could have advance knowledge of events.

Others have access to that info, and even use it. And frankly, none of that affects my loot.

Yes, Hanne left her Skam avatar to take a job with a set paycheck, complete with employment rules, laws, etc.

As I understand it, Jon Neverdie Jacobs opened a full-time business and went into partnership w/ Mindark with no guarantee of set income and he has to pay his employees as well.

It is a bit of a difference.


And let's face it, Neverdie would have to cross the "cheating" line pretty damn far for MA to consider removing his avatar. And since he's invested so much of his time, energy and personal fortune in this Universe, that would require a move so monumentally stupid, that it boggles the mind to even comprehend.

I mean really. Could you imagine his resume after something like that?

"Played a game for 9 years before I got banned for cheating. Plz hire. References attached."

Very interesting points.

Oleg especially made good example of the possibility of knowing future implementations and make advantage of it:

I do not believe Neverdie would do this, but lets imagine.

I start my own planet, which has mobs that make 100% cold. They hit relatively high to anyone ( because of the dmg type) and have big hp, so good chances to give big ath (like proteron), and might even drop some cool stuff.

Before the implementation i would buy every piece of Viking and other that give good protection against Cold, and the prices would go up and i make lot of money.


Is this fair?

Wolverine Queen said:

Very interesting points.

Oleg especially made good example of the possibility of knowing future implementations and make advantage of it:

I do not believe Neverdie would do this, but lets imagine.

I start my own planet, which has mobs that make 100% cold. They hit relatively high to anyone ( because of the dmg type) and have big hp, so good chances to give big ath (like proteron), and might even drop some cool stuff.

Before the implementation i would buy every piece of Viking and other that give good protection against Cold, and the prices would go up and i make lot of money.


Is this fair?

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why didnt you do it when chomper droped the first assassin ?

All these people worried about what scams Neverdie COULD do, but we have actual scammers ingame tricking folks into handing over 1,000s of peds worth of stuff. If MA isn't kicking them out, I don't see why they'd ban someone who might have a chance to scam.

I have the opportunity almost daily to bilk folks out of their peds, if I were so inclined. Wanna ban me?

Focus on the real criminals folks, not the folks who might, maybe, do something bad.

JohnCapital said:

I have the opportunity almost daily to bilk folks out of their peds, if I were so inclined. Wanna ban me?

Focus on the real criminals folks, not the folks who might, maybe, do something bad.

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After having read the replies here, and in the sober light of Monday, I would like to rephrase slightly my question:

When does the potential damage to EU become so great, a person must remove themselves, or be removed.

I don't really believe that ND has or will cheat. But just imagine:
On launch day, Jon is showing a reporter around Next Island. A mob attacks the reporter, and ND courteously kills it, and hits an ATH loot with 3 UL items, one of which is unique. Imagine the outrage!!

Pretty unlikely, sure. But what if. Same as with the contest example in one of the earlier replies. It is less about the possibility of cheating, but the perception of it.

I am sure there is a way for ND to continue his business ventures in EU, and to remove this type of possibility. Give him an Official avatar like Marco's maybe.

ND is just one very high profile example of the types of situations that MA should be making very sure don't destroy the reputation of EU at a time that is likely to be the beginning of a new future for it.

Ok Here are my thoughts:

I think as a community lets not start banning people by giving hypothetical reasons for god sake.

Do I personally know ND... NO! Am I jealous of ND ... YES! because,whether you like him or hate him, the man has achieved massive things that no one can deny.

Ban him?? NO!! That would achieve nothing apart from a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

Why... because if you guys are worried about insider trading (sort of along the same lines) there are government bodies that can deal with stuff like this and I don't think MA is an exception. If you have any proof or inkling about someone doing the wrong thing call them up.

Ban an avatar because we don't know what he could be doing or not doing??? sounds to me more like a witch-hunt.

JohnCapital said:

I'm not one for banning things because of the "possibility" of abuse. That's how we lose things like {self-censored as it would open a Pandora's box of rule 3.6 issues}.

Well, the point is, I'm looking at Neverdie's tracker stats and quite frankly, I can't see anything different from what many thousand other players are doing.

• Sure he could manipulate certain markets.
• Sure he could have intimate knowledge about mob stats.
• Sure he could have advance knowledge of events.

Others have access to that info, and even use it. And frankly, none of that affects my loot.

Yes, Hanne left her Skam avatar to take a job with a set paycheck, complete with employment rules, laws, etc.

As I understand it, Jon Neverdie Jacobs opened a full-time business and went into partnership w/ Mindark with no guarantee of set income and he has to pay his employees as well.

It is a bit of a difference.


And let's face it, Neverdie would have to cross the "cheating" line pretty damn far for MA to consider removing his avatar. And since he's invested so much of his time, energy and personal fortune in this Universe, that would require a move so monumentally stupid, that it boggles the mind to even comprehend.

I mean really. Could you imagine his resume after something like that?

"Played a game for 9 years before I got banned for cheating. Plz hire. References attached."

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But he doesn't need to cheat. There's nothing in the EULA that would stop him profiting from inside knowledge. The possiblity of abuse is, in a way, legitimised.

What about the next guy who opens a planet? Not someone you've seen on the forum for years and know the history of, someone you don't know at all. Would you be just as willing to let them run normal avatars and engage with the game?

Etopia said:

and where you put limit ?
Do you think it is possible to control to how many zillion people ND , or who ever that may got some knowledge can tell something , and then that person abuse that knowledge ?
Lets say MA "lock" , all avatar to all people that work there , and then all avatar of their familly member (that allready a bit big brother imho) , should they also lock the neightbour avatar ?
Afterall , who know if , marco , dont go drink some whiskey with his neightbourg and then tell stuff about game ...
So should we lock his neighbour ?
and why not that neightbour familly ?
Where is limit ?

Isnt more simple , and efficien to make the system that , even if people got knowledge they dont have advantage to use it ...

for now , what kind of knowledge may got ND that give him advantage over other player?

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Marcos Neighbours and ND are no treat. ND's close relationship to MA doesn't affect the entire bandwith of EU participants. ND is a businessman and not competing with hunters, miners and crafters out there every day in regular runs and special events.
It's the high end avatars primarily from one certain society gaining huge advantages and different treatment on every possible matter.

If you tell me it's not true, I tell you that you are lying.

It's not my job to think about and how to realize limits. One possibility would be guidelines like beeing used for real lotteries and sweepstakes, where employees and their relatives are not allowed to actively participate. As I said it's not my job to break my head about this.
Dumping the highly skilled certain avatar of a highly graded certain society since the owner got hired at MA in early 2007 would be a good start, don't you think?

Oleg said:

What about the next guy who opens a planet? Not someone you've seen on the forum for years and know the history of, someone you don't know at all. Would you be just as willing to let them run normal avatars and engage with the game?

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With what I understand about the loot system? yep.

• Their spending does not affect the TT return of my loot. (except w/ LA taxes I pay, but that's not any exploit.)
• There is always others hunting the same mob trying for that "special" item drop.
• There is no way to "force" an item drop.

And again, if it's determined that a planet partner is stupid enough to try some kind of profiteering run, how long would it be that either MA "revokes" their planet, or us players simply boycott it?

Same w/ Neverdie. If he was really caught "exploiting the system" somehow, I'm sure the players would boycott CND, his bank and his planets.

Where's his income now?


I'm sure over the years, Deathifier's achieved a nice cozy relationship with some MA staff. Should we ban him for potential exploiting?

I'm torn on the issue. On one hand, I first met ND wayyyyy back before CP was ever around and know that he is genuinely the real deal - he isn't going to resort to insider information, even if he had it. On the other hand, I see Hanne get hired and have to give up Skam and I am forced to wonder if that is FPC or MA policy... If it is FPC policy - then let ND keep his avatar, he deserves it after all he has done to promote this game and make it a better place. If Hanne had to give up Skam due to MA policy, then it needs to be the same deal here - I don't care if FPC was once one with MA, they are two entities now. As for the quote I saw about FPC employees having potential inside information - the same thing has been said of ND, so it is a perfectly sound correlation to compare he and Hanne.

The short version - I agree with Oleg.