Business ethics in EU?

Medusa

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Medusa Mistress Rox
One point which came up to my concern recently is that the behavior of several "traders", "entrepreneurs" and similar in EU lacks any business ethics and in some way normal moral standards.

For one part I experienced:

- over night change of agreements without giving the 2nd party the possibility to maintain the agreement.

- Interferences in running deals when someone bid more for a desired item than the person who interfered (Dont want to name anyone, but someone warned a buyer of an item, that the item wasn't worth the buyout and at the same time pm'ing the seller to offer higher under different terms)

- Massive market manipulations "just for fun"

- Underpricing of an 10k+ item and buying for way lower price just in order to resell it.

- Badmouthing by unsatisfied buyer because the seller made a better deal.


Some of those actions would in a regular economy have been highly penalised, but given the fact that there is no market control in EU, even though the turnover is big, unethical behaviour is something we can expect to experience day by day.

MA's / FPC's not interference policy in regard to deals between 2 avatars opens all doors to market scammers, market manipulators, unloyal competition, and similar subject.

Here where "a mans word" has to count like an agreement IRL we have to hope that the other party will hold whats promised, and the moral has gone down in the past couple years.

Im pondering what could be done against it, but cant reach any reasonable idea which might work.

What is your opinion about this matter?

Is there any solution to the degradation of ethical and moral values in EU?

Are we doomed to avoid trust, and doubble and tripple check any possible "employer", "partner" or straight agreed deal in EU?

It is sad if its so...
 
What is your opinion about this matter?

Caveat emptor

Is there any solution to the degradation of ethical and moral values in EU?

I really don't think there is (a degradation). You have people from the entire globe participating and norms aren't the same everywhere. EU has a particular draw for people in countries where sufficient wealth exists to have computers and Internet access, but barely, and those people are going to approach it very differently than those who see EU as purely entertainment.

I've been a tourist in Egypt, Israel, Mexico, and much of Europe, and the differences in trading practices and acceptable behavior are very apparent. For example, high pressure sales tactics seem to me to be common in the poorer countries, at least for "rich tourists", while in more wealthy countries it tends to be less that way.
 
If you deal with fairly well known avatars you wont have any problems.

It is when you deal with noobs you have problems. I have made the mistake a few times to try and make deals and agreements with people I don't know. If you are lucky the agreement is valid for 24 hours... I can barely pvp-trade anymore with noobs without going nuts. Last time I tried I had to log off mid trade to avoid brain damage.

My new goal is to do 100% of my business using auction and shops. No direct contact with people. I can't take it anymore. :(
 
If you deal with fairly well known avatars you wont have any problems.

It is when you deal with noobs you have problems. I have made the mistake a few times to try and make deals and agreements with people I don't know. If you are lucky the agreement is valid for 24 hours... I can barely pvp-trade anymore with noobs without going nuts. Last time I tried I had to log off mid trade to avoid brain damage.

My new goal is to do 100% of my business using auction and shops. No direct contact with people. I can't take it anymore. :(

Noobs are not surprising me for a long time now, the situations I mentioned have been caused by well known and "respected" avatars. This confused me and actually pissed me off to a point a haven't reached for a long time.
 
I only use auction, and will always do. I dont trust people
 
useful theme ...

but there are so many bitches out there that no ethics will help u ... u just need to know how to send someone on one finger and have fun on it :yay:

Im sorry to say , but TRUST is overexploited in here ...
 
simple

Simple, same probs as irl, except we don't have asian counterfit items that don't work...
 
Human nature is shit. MA likes human nature as it is. The drama... remember that post? As hard is the smell, as good it is for the business. If 2 people want same item and both deposit, is good for MA. If one is tricked and he won't get the item, is even better for MA. He will have the money sucked in game and spend on something else. So why make a system good for all when as it is is a lot better for the game?
 
we just work with the human nature ... whatever it is ...
 
There are no consequences of disgraceful actions in EU. That's why extortionists make multiple accounts to buy Land Areas.
 
sales and bussines are bound to human nature, mostly using the weakness of the other party, to some point those actions are expected, and known to happen but IRL we have agreements protecting us from such disgracefull behaviours.

If there werent any work contracts, many employers would hire ppl, fire them and than never pay them out, or never pay their insurance etc...

Also if we are overpriced / underpriced for our services / wares, we have customer protective agencies.

In EU we got non of them, we only got the word and the reputation of the person we are talking to.

Sure, trust has been overexploited in EU, ppl lost due to trust scams a lot of cash, some lost the trust in human nature even, last example to be the scammed MM, but the thing I dont and cant understand is the tolerance MA offers to such low lifes and why they are letting them just do as they please.

Seems like atm the only profession without possibility to loose is beeing scammer, either market scam, trust scam or any other and I even expect MA/FPC to get the adequate skills for such "professions"...

In my opinion there is no difference between on purpose underpaying an item of which you know that the market value is way above the offered and taking the PED straight from the PED card of the seller.

Also there is no difference in taking someones hard earned PED and ruining a fair deal to own benefit on which the person would have earned.

I got nothing against reselling, reselling is the fundament this "society" has been built upon, but market scams on high end items look more plausible than charging a noob TT+100 for man mph or paying him TT+xx for a rare item he looted (im2870 from snabble, many noobs got screwed back than) even though it is the same...
 
From day to day it is getting worse in EU, MA should implement some kind of customer / trader security agency.

One thing Ive realised are some, for sure not all ore resellers which misscount on purpose, doing so they can get 10-20 PED per trade more profit, on some miner who doesnt doubble check the trade or is just in a hurry.

Most of the traders dont even say the % they are buying now for, as they have it on their websites, or tell it when asked, just give you an ammount, and ask if its ok or not....

A trade agreement consists of Seller, buyer, defined product, defined price, defined payment method.

Some other issues have occured directly to me today, which will probably cost me 1.5k earned PED, but will try to settle the matter before I write about it.
 
It is hard ask for implement codes of ethics from people who dont have much ethic them self :)
 
Well if you sell to street traders you can expect to get ripped off. You don't buy a rolex from a street trader irl, do you? it's about the same thing.
 
Well if you sell to street traders you can expect to get ripped off. You don't buy a rolex from a street trader irl, do you? it's about the same thing.

Exactly, about the same business.
Just with a little more anonymity and a little less responsibility due to internets.

I'm sure the forum owner can tell you more about that style of bizzo.
 
that wasn't the point, the point is announcing at one price, buying at a different in order to sneak personal gain bigger than with the original price. I had one french dude announcing that he is buying narc at 134% a couple days ago, naturally I offered my ores to him since I had a nice batch of narc in offer and wanted to continue my run quickly. 134% was bigger than any auction order I found. But since I had only Narc and Zinc it was easy to see that the calculation doesnt add on, after I told him that, he tried to calculate it for 3 times, always came to the same price, which was something around 125%, I finaly gave up and sold to some other dude, I think it was TigerSkin, got a fair price and a set of warm ears from the cursing of the french guy :p
 
I have to laugh when I hear "business" and "ethics" in the same sentence :laugh:

Have you ever bought a used car :eek:

I the real world, business is regulated to some extent, depending on where in the world you are. Private deals are mostly unregulated as are these private deals in EU (unless the OP is aiming at the business interests in EU).

What I don't see is exactly what people expect MA/FPC to do to regulate private trades. As always it is buyer beware.
 
From day to day it is getting worse in EU, MA should implement some kind of customer / trader security agency.
Please don't come and ask for in game big brother system too....
(and we do, called support)
if you sell cheap then dont blame the other person who might have done a great deal, blame yourself (maybe easy for me to say as I dont generally trade with high values tho, but think before selling)

What I don't see is exactly what people expect MA/FPC to do to regulate private trades. As always it is buyer beware.
I wonder the same...
 
Human nature is shit. MA likes human nature as it is. The drama... remember that post? As hard is the smell, as good it is for the business. If 2 people want same item and both deposit, is good for MA. If one is tricked and he won't get the item, is even better for MA. He will have the money sucked in game and spend on something else. So why make a system good for all when as it is is a lot better for the game?

can't be more truth..
 
Fun Da...Mental

It is a Capitalist system. - It is geared to incentivise those who only look out for themselves. It is not an EU phenomena, it is symptomatic of all Industrialised Western nations. (Steve Jobs illustrates it most recently)
China is poised to take centre stage, and altho' their Ideology is fundamentally flawed, it is better than ours.
 
First, I'd like to post a video I've posted here before, but many may have missed.

Dan Ariely on our buggy moral code The part on cheating begins ~4:20.

After you've watched, let's continue this discussion.

All done? Good. Here we go.

1st, I believe you are wrong, Medusa.

From day to day it is getting worse in EU, MA should implement some kind of customer / trader security agency.

I completely disagree. I believe as the majority of players mature, getting scammed is increasingly harder and harder. Yes some folks still try to scam. Yes, buyer must beware. However, there is no reason at all for any kind of "security watch". Do you really want MA policing every transaction when someone says "I was scammed!!!"? Consider carefully if it was you how much research you must do to make sure there really is a problem.

Besides, knowing MA won't do squat to help me simply keeps my on my toes whenever I make deals, knowing if I screw up, it's on me.

As for resellers, we must make sure we understand the different categories. There are, after all, many different types.

Rebuyers: folks who buy small qtys of hides, wools, ores, etc. from hunters and miners who can't get enough of something to reasonably sell it on auction. They buy small amounts from many players, and can then sell the combined qtys in one batch. Yes, they must offer less than avg. auction cost, but they are offering a service. It's better to sell to them than to TT something. These folks are fine.

Users: Folks who buy equipment, actually use it, and later sell it at a higher price. However that's a factor of market, not reselling. I've bought equipment and used it, and sold it when I've "upgraded". Sometimes I sold for more than I bought it for, sometimes less. That's the breaks. These folks are fine.

True resellers: Folks who find a bargain on auction, buy it (with zero intention of using the items) and immediately place it back on auction for a higher price.

It is the last group that I truly despise, and I suspect, are the least moral in all EU. They offer no benefit, no service, they simply try to "nibble" some profit off, like some kind of leech.








I'm sorry. What was the question again?
 
It is a Capitalist system. - It is geared to incentivise those who only look out for themselves.

Sorry for the double post, but I just saw this and it's a bunch of horse manure. a true capitalistic system encourages helping, not "looking out for numero uno".

Proof? Lebanner and Sarah offers better prices than most other rebuyers, so they get more business. LeeLoo can't charge too much for her painting/texture services because than no one will use her service. If Qetesh, in an attempt to make more profit, cranked Nea's place tax to 8%, his revenue will drop like a rock.

In a capitalistic system screwing others loses you customers and profits in the long run. Period.

But this is bordering on forum rule 3.6 - Real-world Controversial Discussion so I'll drop it.
 
There are no consequences of disgraceful actions in EU.

I think that's it right there in a nutshell. The fact that everyone gets to hide behind a computer screen and just type instead of actually interact makes a huge difference. The fact that no one really knows anything about the person at the other end... well I would not buy a car or a house online.
 
@ J.C

You are right, there are many layers in the term "reseller" and it can be a honorable profession if done correctly. But dropping prices on purpose with market manipulations (last example Aframo) in order to sell the bought items later with a factor 5-10 profit, is in my opinion scamming. (I believe the same as dekel, someone paid aframo to drop the prices on purpose, proof me wrong)

Or using someones situation or not knowledge about the value of his item like in
Shotis situation with Mary Jane, where he knew of the value of the tooth, paid her a third part or less of the market value, and when she figured out what happend he didnt want to cancel the trade but found excuses. Thats scam too, whatever happend afterwards.

R.J. Just said she / he wouldnt buy a house or a car online without seeing the seller IRL, but transactions of this size are handled in EU almost every day.

A coupple years ago, resellers (the bad kind) had to hide on EF, reputation was everything and granted long term profit, fair trade was the most honorable thing to do,... but now, we look at things like they happen and dont speak up,... thats the detoriation in the EU comunity Im talking about.
Every greedy SOAB can do as he pleases, and will do as he pleases and the community will not say a word.

Even though MA is not doing a sh... to prevent scams, market manipulations, and similar to happen, or helps the victims of such cases, we as a community should be able at least to point out the problem and not accept it...
 
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