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Question: At what point should you switch to a higher SIB weapon ?

C

CozMoDan

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Joined
Jan 13, 2008
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4,767
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Arizona
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Herco Coz Mann
I can move up to a higher SIB pistol but I am wondering at what HA and Dmg should I be before moving. I am currently 8.5/10 HA and 8.9/10 dmg. I am still 4 shots per minutes (53/57 SPM) less that the max. I have heard 9/10 on both and others say 9.5/10. Also I do not have the max damage, its like about 10 less than max.

One other thing, when you are yes in both hit and damage for SIB does this mean you will get more green or the green will be worth. Another words when you get a greenie will it move the bar futher or will you just get more greenies?
TIA.
Peace.
 
That depends. If you want to be eco, you need to wait until it's maxed before using it. Other than that you can even use it before you reach the starting SIB-level (without getting the SIB, obviously).

As far as the green lines are concerned I read that not every green line of a skill has the same impact. However, I can't say if SIB means more green lines or more gain per green line.
 
Don't use any L weapons till you're maxed on them.
 
Oleg said:
Don't use any L weapons till you're maxed on them.
Click to expand...

if i shouldn't use any L weapons before Ive maxed it, how do i get the SIB from that L weapon i shouldn't be using till Ive maxed it?


:yay:
 
sidxx said:
if i shouldn't use any L weapons before Ive maxed it, how do i get the SIB from that L weapon i shouldn't be using till Ive maxed it?


:yay:
Click to expand...

You don't.

The money you save by not using unmaxed weapons is far more useful than negligible amount of extra skill you get from using a weapon during the learning period.
 
endermigne said:
you can even use it before you reach the starting SIB-level (without getting the SIB, obviously).
Click to expand...

No, no, never use a SIB weapon until you have the minimum requirements.

The efficiency is far worse than if you had no skills whatsoever on an UL weapon. You can verify this by looking at the Damage Range, which shows you have an average Damage far below 62.5% of the Maximum, which is what you get when you reach the minimum SIB level, or are a complete noob using a UL weapon..
 
Oleg said:
Don't use any L weapons till you're maxed on them.

The money you save by not using unmaxed weapons is far more useful than negligible amount of extra skill you get from using a weapon during the learning period.
Click to expand...

I fully agree! but...

If you insist on going for some SIB time...

I suggest having hit & dmg on the last level before maxed, and minimum damage above the minimum damage of the previous gun in the SIB chain! ;)



But, what Oleg said is best, you should listen to him! :thumbup:
 
Some think loot is based on how much you spend, i.e. even if killing mobX for sure costs more with a gun that isnt maxed on dmg, you supposedly get back the same % of loot anyway in the long run, so grabbing the extra skills is pure bonus.
Some think its just plain stupid to use something that costs the same to shoot, even if you get <100% of the potential dmg compared to what you could have gotten, and dont believe the extra skills make up for the extra cost.
Some think that yes, it costs more, but the extra skills make it worth it (Although thats been proven wrong quite a few times now... :p)
etcetc.


I guess its a bit like "how loot works", "mining spirals", and similar, in the end it comes down to what theory you personally believe in.
For me personally the idea of using active dmg SIB, unless one doesn't give a fook about cost, and decided actively against chipping, is that its a horrible idea.
At least until we see some decent, proven stats showing otherwise, im gonna stick to using maxed stuff, at least on the dmg/heal side of it all, all you lose on rpm is well... rpm, and thats down to what youre after.
 
chevrons said:
No, no, never use a SIB weapon until you have the minimum requirements.

The efficiency is far worse than if you had no skills whatsoever on an UL weapon. You can verify this by looking at the Damage Range, which shows you have an average Damage far below 62.5% of the Maximum, which is what you get when you reach the minimum SIB level, or are a complete noob using a UL weapon..
Click to expand...

I am a bit confused with the 62.5% thing. You are saying that when reach min SIB lvl the most you get is 62.5% of max. But that is not an average, is it ? That is just the max damage you can get period.
Peace.
 
i´d downgrade 1 step till youre maxed and use the new gun when its maxed. Those extraped you have now, that you dont waste by sibing you invest in a few dmg-enhancers to pimp your weaker gun to about the stats of the better gun, same effect on HA10/10. I have no numbers on this but i think the additional damage you do on the weaker gun even helps to stay more balanced between hit and dmg level.
 
you shouldn't use anything your not at least 90% maxed on
 
CozMoDan said:
I can move up to a higher SIB pistol but I am wondering at what HA and Dmg should I be before moving. I am currently 8.5/10 HA and 8.9/10 dmg. I am still 4 shots per minutes (53/57 SPM) less that the max. I have heard 9/10 on both and others say 9.5/10. Also I do not have the max damage, its like about 10 less than max.

One other thing, when you are yes in both hit and damage for SIB does this mean you will get more green or the green will be worth. Another words when you get a greenie will it move the bar futher or will you just get more greenies?
TIA.
Peace.
Click to expand...

I switch to next level gun, when I am maxed on it :)
 
I personally prefer to wait until either Hit or Damage is maxed and settle for the SIB gain on whichever skill is lower. A bit of a compromise between Oleg's extremely good advice and my wanting to claw a little extra off MA without it costing me too much ;)

And NEVER use a gun that you're in SIB for when you get better damage and/or dps with the one that you've just maxed! :wise:
 
and i sugest something different. When u are about lvl 35-40 in profesion u are aiming to use weapons from, dont switch until sib on next one is maxed ( eco ) because at that stage u are probably doing normal runs on mobs of your choice and improving returns from each run is important. However if u are on levels under 20 in that main proffesion u probably shoot just to get to higher lvls, as this is progresing realy fast and u need to change guns faster than their TT is used ( especialy on realy low lvls). In that case i sugest use actual L SIB gun till its TT value and and then switch to next, better one with sib still on. Maybe u lost few peds or some %;s in eco, but u faster advance that way to some reasonable lvl. Anyway till lvl30 u will be switching guns and mobs lvl very often. It is not obvious - you just will see later on higher lvls how slow progresing can be ( years compared to weeks/days ) with same weapon all ?the time. At this stage u probably get some nice unL SIB and stick with it veeery veeery looong ( commando ? )
 
CozMoDan said:
I am a bit confused with the 62.5% thing. You are saying that when reach min SIB lvl the most you get is 62.5% of max. But that is not an average, is it ? That is just the max damage you can get period.
Peace.
Click to expand...

Yes it is the average.

If you have an L weapon at min SIB, or are a noob with no skills and have a UL weapon, the Damage Range is 25% of the Maximum to 100% of the maximum. So the average is 62.5%. As you go up the SIB, when you reach Max the Range is 50% to 100%, so the average Damage is 75% of the maximum.

But look at an L weapon where you haven't reached the SIB; the Range is far lower, implying the efficiency is terrible.

The figures are visible for Damage, but I'd speculate that HA works the same way, it just isn't visible as negative HA can't be displayed. That would imply that the HA on a SIB weapon below min SIB might be -5 or so say, and only jumps up to 0.0 when min SIB is reached. (meaning that you might Miss 25% of the time instead of 20% which is what HA 0.0 means).
 
Last edited:
shoti said:
*snip* However if u are on levels under 20 in that main proffesion u probably shoot just to get to higher lvls, as this is progresing realy fast and u need to change guns faster than their TT is used ( especialy on realy low lvls). *snip*
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity - how quickly DO you skill up at low levels? I'm still new... but I feel like I've been shooting forever (I realize you said later on I'd realize how quickly) but I think I'm still level 3, and haven't even maxed opallo yet. About how much PED would you say you have to spend per skill level at the lower levels to skill up? I usually buy ammo in 10PED chunks and get maybe a 60-80% return on loot based on luck.
 
I get just as many misses with HA at 10/10 as I do at .5/10. This is very disappointing to me as there seems to be no logic in the game, skills really don't count for much except to allow you to use a weapon that costs more at each shot. Also, most of the ways for colonists to make money, selling sweat for ME, making nutrio bars from fruit, etc seem to be taken away while new ways for MA to make money, synthetic ME for example are being increased. It is way out of balance. BTW, why isn't there a total skills field on the skills page? MA has all the info and it would be easy to implement.

Sorry, I got carried away,
Candy
 
Candice said:
I get just as many misses with HA at 10/10 as I do at .5/10.
Click to expand...

I find this very hard to believe. You can verify the exact numberof misses and hits this by checking you chat.log file Maybe you are lucky and getting 90% hit rate at 0.5/10?
 
moiraine88 said:
Out of curiosity - how quickly DO you skill up at low levels? I'm still new... but I feel like I've been shooting forever (I realize you said later on I'd realize how quickly) but I think I'm still level 3, and haven't even maxed opallo yet. About how much PED would you say you have to spend per skill level at the lower levels to skill up? I usually buy ammo in 10PED chunks and get maybe a 60-80% return on loot based on luck.
Click to expand...

at realu low levels skiling new lvls are hours. maybew days later. Anyway it is damn fast compared to "months" later. As for ped amount it depend what gun u use after that opalo but at constant shooting u can walk throu all breers and rikers in 1-2 weeks.
 
Oleg said:
Don't use any L weapons till you're maxed on them.
Click to expand...

Do you have any data for this? Its brave to say SIB is bullshit for nothing and that there is no use at all ;)

Some people might wants to advance faster, even for some extra decay... And in the past i used SIB and had no bad results, so im interested to see your data!
 
PW3CKA said:
Do you have any data for this? Its brave to say SIB is bullshit for nothing and that there is no use at all ;)

Some people might wants to advance faster, even for some extra decay... And in the past i used SIB and had no bad results, so im interested to see your data!
Click to expand...

Don't have time to find them for you right now but somewhere on the forum there are some tests by Hijacker using a rocket launcher, and another older one by Immortal for FAPs.

Hijacker's tests did show a small skill boost during the learning period but of course that comes with a price due to missed shots and lower damage range.

So yes you can get a few more skills but you'll have to pay for it. If you want to pay more to skill faster, that's what skill implants are for :)

The way I look at it is, I can wait for skills as they will come eventually, but money wasted is gone forever.
 
Oleg said:
You don't.

The money you save by not using unmaxed weapons is far more useful than negligible amount of extra skill you get from using a weapon during the learning period.
Click to expand...

Heh...I've always like your "no bullshit" way of addressing things (albeit you're not being "harsh" in this thread).


I have actually been looking over stats on different guns to move to lately as I'm almost maxed the Opalo and although I haven't broke down to do the math (although I'm kinda dorky and will prolly do it eventually) the SIB vs. actual damage and efficiency seemed to me to lean against using any SIB weapons...Now that kind of confused me but it just didn't look right...

Why would EU slap these in if it's not a good idea at ALL to use it?
It just seems like "fluff" and something that one who really doesn't look at what they are doing will easily do: Switch to a SIB when they hit. Why wouldn't they? It's only SEEMS like the obvious thing to do...

Nonetheless, after the opionions stated here, and a few in game, I aon't touching a SIB weapon unless I am maxed, or very close to being maxed on it. Which means unless I get one for very cheap I won't be using them at all, at least for the use of actual SIB - or I'll just use an UL that I can handle for a main weapon.(I DO use a Mar-Spark that I shouldn't be using, but that's only for protection when out in the boonies so as to give me a few more damage from a longer distance before I switch weapons...But that a technique I use and doesn't apply to this discussion...)

Back on topic: I'll be scouring guns again but does anyone have some suggestions of what are the next guns in line after grinding the Opalo?








Tippin'
 
aj502 said:
Why would EU slap these in if it's not a good idea at ALL to use it?
It just seems like "fluff" and something that one who really doesn't look at what they are doing will easily do: Switch to a SIB when they hit. Why wouldn't they? It's only SEEMS like the obvious thing to do...
Click to expand...

When SIB was introduced (initial phasein dec 2006-march 2007), a lot of those weapons (and moreso faps) were excellent replacements for what was available at the time. COmpare level 50 using a justifier mkV to lr53, or better yet, a ur125 to ek2600 - ur125 is more eco than ek2600 even at the beginning of the SIB phase and @ 200% - this isn't true for everything though - the initial distribution of sib weapons had a big enough gap that using it sooner rather than later meant a significant difference in dps - it just so happened the system was updated and filled in, and the SIB labels remained.
 
aj502 said:
Heh...I've always like your "no bullshit" way of addressing things (albeit you're not being "harsh" in this thread).


I have actually been looking over stats on different guns to move to lately as I'm almost maxed the Opalo and although I haven't broke down to do the math (although I'm kinda dorky and will prolly do it eventually) the SIB vs. actual damage and efficiency seemed to me to lean against using any SIB weapons...Now that kind of confused me but it just didn't look right...

Why would EU slap these in if it's not a good idea at ALL to use it?
It just seems like "fluff" and something that one who really doesn't look at what they are doing will easily do: Switch to a SIB when they hit. Why wouldn't they? It's only SEEMS like the obvious thing to do...

Nonetheless, after the opionions stated here, and a few in game, I aon't touching a SIB weapon unless I am maxed, or very close to being maxed on it. Which means unless I get one for very cheap I won't be using them at all, at least for the use of actual SIB - or I'll just use an UL that I can handle for a main weapon.(I DO use a Mar-Spark that I shouldn't be using, but that's only for protection when out in the boonies so as to give me a few more damage from a longer distance before I switch weapons...But that a technique I use and doesn't apply to this discussion...)

Back on topic: I'll be scouring guns again but does anyone have some suggestions of what are the next guns in line after grinding the Opalo?








Tippin'
Click to expand...

The obvious gun to go for after the Opalo is a Breer M1a (L). There is a weapon marked on the "New SIB Charts" - the Ukash rifle - which is better but AFAIK they are no longer coming into the game. The sequence appears to be the Breer M1, M2, M3 then the three Rikers and then the M4. Considerations of economy may alter this sequence, however.

The Anabolic is a strange one. It has very low skill requirements, considering its DPS; however, it's very un-eco because it has not only a very high TT value but also a high MU.

In all cases here, I'm talking about the (L) versions; all the above guns do exist in UL versions but they are quite rare and extremely expensive. Of course, you may be rich...
 
@ Immortal
I can assume back then SIB was viable at helping lower levels skill (on weapopns) back then.

Man, the more I learn the more I realize how much it sucks to be a new player. At least, how much I have missed (not including all the cool stuff that is no longer in game).


@ iancampbell
Okay, so basically the same ones you'd use FOR the SIB, but just wait until you're maxed on them...(or UNTIL I get rich! lol )
;)


Thx all.









Tippin'
 
aj502 said:
@ Immortal
I can assume back then SIB was viable at helping lower levels skill (on weapopns) back then.
Click to expand...
The dps and eco of the newly discovered sib weapons were superior to conventional nonSIB, despite markup. The fact they delivered a slight increase in skill would not ahve been the most persuasive factor in using them. As an exercise, go through the calculation I mentioned above (you can just use entropedia to work it out) and compare eco and dps.

aj502 said:
Man, the more I learn the more I realize how much it sucks to be a new player. At least, how much I have missed (not including all the cool stuff that is no longer in game).
Click to expand...

Everyone was once a new player. I happened to advance a lot quicker than other hunters in skills+professions, but that didn't mean I understood. Personally I think now is a great time to be a new player - missions that require killing 16k daikiba, merp, ripper snapper, cornundacuada, foul, molisk will give a solid foundation on the necessary skills required for hunting and survival in EU
 
The thing to buy might be an a101 for the opalo if you haven't gotten one yet ;)

You also might think about maxing the TT melee weapons since mixed attributes lead to higher HP.
 
CozMoDan said:
I can move up to a higher SIB pistol but I am wondering at what HA and Dmg should I be before moving. I am currently 8.5/10 HA and 8.9/10 dmg. I am still 4 shots per minutes (53/57 SPM) less that the max. I have heard 9/10 on both and others say 9.5/10. Also I do not have the max damage, its like about 10 less than max.

One other thing, when you are yes in both hit and damage for SIB does this mean you will get more green or the green will be worth. Another words when you get a greenie will it move the bar futher or will you just get more greenies?
TIA.
Peace.
Click to expand...

Another way at looking is - look up the weapon you are using and the next one in Entropedia and look at the cost : pec/sec field. This will tell you how much your costs will go up. Make sure you are prepared for that.
 
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