FYI: Skill Bonus from Scopes an Sights (januari 2011)

Hellraizer said:

I always got the impression that sights and scopes added to the hit/damage effect only within the max range of the weapon, so when you have a rifle with 60-70m max range.. below 60m the addon will not have it's stated effect of percentage, tis why such a test needs high discipline and many variants for true results.

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Imo this isn't so hard to test after all. Monitoring every hit and dmg done per hit would be enough. Even if they only affect the weapon at its max range, the total of hits and/or average dmg done per hit should raise a bit. If not the attachments doesn't have their promised effect at all, or they do and they will increase the HA at range but DECREASE the normal HA when the mob gets closer. This would be a F***** up joke from MA Imo

Though, for people who like to use attachments on tag weapons only I will try to figgure out if the hitrate in the first few shots on every mob is higher with attachments. no prommisses on this.

For thos who are interested, I did some homework and made some tables. Green fields are for me to fill in, it will calculate the rest.
With al those handy tools that are around these days I am able to make this a multi function test. I can also messure change in hitrate, average dmg/s, and loots.

If you feel like, look at them. Suggestions are always welcome.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/70m1e7dlayt6mmr/Logs.xlsx
http://www.mediafire.com/file/b644kr8p5kvfcm5/Skillgains.xlsx

(in the file logs.xlsx you'll find 4 diffrent tables (cost per run, hitrate, loot returns, and dps.))

Starting at the end of this week!
Take care, Sway.

A little heads up.
I just finished the first 4 runs, so 1 run for each setup.
Its really way too early to make conclusions but some things are quite interresting.

By the looks of it, attachments do not seem to give you more skills.

Again, this is not a conclusion.

I do however see my hitrate grow.
Maxed P5a without attachments :91.08%
Maxed P5a with attachments:91.82%
Merc with h/a 3.3 without attachements: 84.71%
Merc with h/a 3.3 with attachements: 86.21%

Well, more work to do. I'll post again when I'm halfway.

Greetings, Sway.

Sway said:

A little heads up.
I just finished the first 4 runs, so 1 run for each setup.
Its really way too early to make conclusions but some things are quite interresting.

By the looks of it, attachments do not seem to give you more skills.

Again, this is not a conclusion.

I do however see my hitrate grow.
Maxed P5a without attachments :91.08%
Maxed P5a with attachments:91.82%
Merc with h/a 3.3 without attachements: 84.71%
Merc with h/a 3.3 with attachements: 86.21%

Well, more work to do. I'll post again when I'm halfway.

Greetings, Sway.

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that's very interestning indeed looking forward to more! +rep

Are you standing still while shooting and is the mob running towards you from maximum weapon range?
Or are you walking backwards while shooting so you can get in 1 or more shots before the mob reaches you?

Reason why i ask is that it was said that the effect was maximum at the edge of the weapon range and would decrease while the target gets closer. It could be interesting to walk backwards more to increase the effect compared to doing all on point blank range.

It would be good to know if the effect was say 100% on max range and 50% on 0 range or 0% at 0 range.
Because if it is 0% at 0 range i would find the decay not fair as one does not get something in return.

Cheers
Siam

rhogenbe said:

Are you standing still while shooting and is the mob running towards you from maximum weapon range?
Or are you walking backwards while shooting so you can get in 1 or more shots before the mob reaches you?

Reason why i ask is that it was said that the effect was maximum at the edge of the weapon range and would decrease while the target gets closer. It could be interesting to walk backwards more to increase the effect compared to doing all on point blank range.

It would be good to know if the effect was say 100% on max range and 50% on 0 range or 0% at 0 range.
Because if it is 0% at 0 range i would find the decay not fair as one does not get something in return.

Cheers
Siam

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This is hard to test I think, becouse you can't really control the range variable as mutch as you want. in other words, you can't keep a mob from walking towards you. Meybe this could be tested in PVP, but there you have the dodge variable that will influence hitrate aswell.

And hitrate is not the main reason for this test. I'm testing "the other skill thingy"
I belive this has nothing to do with the range.

That is very strange cause I believe I'am getting way more skills using attachments. Though I'am doing the daikiba mission atm, I still feel I gained 2 more levels on top of what I would of been able to get at present. Btw I'am using Opalo on this mission so unless I'am talking non sense somehow I went from just lv21 to almost level 23 in my laser sniper hit profession. There is noway I gained two whole levels just by using the Opalo alone, something must of attributed to those gains & I believe it was the attachments I was using plus some the occasional kill bonus. I also took note of the amount of skills I had before the mission was 48-49k now I'am almost 53k & I'm still using the Opalo. Somehow this does not add up in my mind if your saying attachments as far as you can tell they don't give you a skill bonus. Would like to hear other people's comment about this.

Sway said:

By the looks of it, attachments do not seem to give you more skills.

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I'm halfway now and I'm starting to belive I was wrong im my previous post.

I did not yet calculated TT values of skills so this is purely based on skillpoints gained.

Total: 1380
Total without attachments: 679
Total with attachments: 701
Thats 22 points difference. I don't really know if this is within normal range, but it is a difference.
This data is from 3,6K ped cycled.

Some other interesting things:
It seems to affect hitrate but only on the maxed P5a, on the merc my hitrate is actualy worse with attachments 2/3 of the runs.
Loot seems to be worse with attachments, but I guess its to dynamic to have valid results.

All the results and data will be avalible when I'm finished.

Cheers Sway.

hmm I use EWE ep 40 too sometimes(not maxed) and I've seen the hit rate improve usually when adding atachments(I use a dacascos and an abrer laser sight) this is just my general impression and by no means is it a conclussive or rigourous test...loot usually the same though

Sway said:

I'm halfway now and I'm starting to belive I was wrong im my previous post. I did not yet calculated TT values of skills so this is purely based on skillpoints gained.

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Well thank heavens for that . Look forward to the end result , loot for me using the attachments seem the same.

So here I am, finished hunting and gathering information.

I Tested it with 2 guns:
ewe-ep41 mercenary
Breer P5a

And with 2x hunnir laser sight and a jzar scope, givving me a attachment skill bonus of 5,8.

I did 24 runs with atleast 3K shots, the settups where in the following order:

1+5+9: P5a Without attachments
2+6+10: P5a with attachments
3+7+11: Ep-40 without attachments
4+8+12: Ep-40 With attachments
*13+17+21: Ep-40 With attachments
*14+18+22: Ep-40 without attachments
*15+19+23: P5a with attachments
*16+20+24: P5a Without attachments

*please note that the order of the settups turned around halfway to even out slower skillgain when having higher skills.

Some interesting results came out.

1: Skillgains
This is actually verry fluctuating, some runs were better then others, but at an average I got 0,9% more skill with attachments. It seems to affect the skills in the dmg proffesion the most. Where the difference at the hit proffession was just 0,7% the difference at the dmg proffession was 4,15%

1: Hit ability
I was collecting a lot of data so I could also messure if my hitrate was better with attachments.
This is half true.
My average hitrate on the P5a was worse with attachments then without. (without: 91,99%, with: 91.84%)
On the EP-40 (H/A just 3.5) the hitrate was better with attachments. (without: 84.92%, with: 85.12%)

3: ECO
I think everyone can guess this. Attachments are not really eco.
List of average dmg/pec:
P5a without: 2.93
P5a with: 2.86
EP-40 without: 2.42
EP-40 with: 2.37

So far all the basic info for you. I can bother you with every piece of data I got, but it would be a waste of time for both of us imo.

Offcourse I'm happy to answer all speciffic questions regarding this. So if you have some, do not hesitate to ask me. PM of in this threat, I don't mind.

Disclaimer: I do not claim these results to be facts. Just findings from my own expirience. Sice the game is dynamic I can not guaranty anyone else will get the same results.


I hope you like it and you can use the information.
Cheers Sway.

This is awesome, great work. I'd love if you could post the data for each run. What happens to the eco if you include the extra peds gained from the bonus skills?

Q; when you did these runs where you in first person mode looking threw the scopes??

xillonz said:

This is awesome, great work. I'd love if you could post the data for each run. What happens to the eco if you include the extra peds gained from the bonus skills?

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I will work on this one next few days. I can immagine it might be a lot of work to check skill TT values 24 times.
But I will do my best!

Skytle Dblood said:

Q; when you did these runs where you in first person mode looking threw the scopes??

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I hunted first person only. Imo it doesn't matter if you look trough it or not, It's on the gun, i'm using it and it decays. I don't think I actualy have to look trough it ta let it have it's effect. If so, how do the laser sights work?

Very nice and great work
~Danimal

Nice job Sway

Nice job and thanks for the info here!

thank you

xillonz said:

This is awesome, great work. I'd love if you could post the data for each run. What happens to the eco if you include the extra peds gained from the bonus skills?

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After all day:

I figured out what the TT value of the gained skills is per run.
And yet another interresting thingie came to attention. Heres a list of average TT gained per Setup:

P5a without attachments: 6.08 Ped
P5a with attachments: 6.29 Ped (increased)

EP-40 without attachments: 5.82 Ped
EP-40 with attachments: 5,70 Ped (decreased)

Also note that I got LESS skills using a UL weapon when not maxed. This could be just randomness or something, but still.

What you asked is what will happen to the eco when the skills are added.
In general I see a increase of:
with the P5a 0,39% (both with and without attachments)
EP-40 without: 0,37
EP-40 with: 0,36

Yet this increase is not enough to justify the decay spent.:
P5a With attachments gives 2,905 Dmg/Pec (including skills)
P5a without attachments gives 2.977 Dmg/Ped (including skills)
P5a without attachments even without skills gives more then with attachments: 2,931 Dmg/Pec

The excel sheets with all relivant data can be found Here!!

I also want to thank a few people:
Kaylan for using her Jzar scope.
Ricco for using his hunnir laser sight.
Akoz for his awsome app: EU screen grabber, wich I used to track most data.
And ofcourse Jdegre for his (imo most usefull EU tool avalible) Skill scanner.

Cheers, Sway.

Sway said:

After all day:

I figured out what the TT value of the gained skills is per run.
And yet another interresting thingie came to attention. Heres a list of average TT gained per Setup:

P5a without attachments: 6.08 Ped
P5a with attachments: 6.29 Ped (increased)

EP-40 without attachments: 5.82 Ped
EP-40 with attachments: 5,70 Ped (decreased)

Also note that I got LESS skills using a UL weapon when not maxed. This could be just randomness or something, but still.

What you asked is what will happen to the eco when the skills are added.
In general I see a increase of:
with the P5a 0,39% (both with and without attachments)
EP-40 without: 0,37
EP-40 with: 0,36

Yet this increase is not enough to justify the decay spent.:
P5a With attachments gives 2,905 Dmg/Pec (including skills)
P5a without attachments gives 2.977 Dmg/Ped (including skills)
P5a without attachments even without skills gives more then with attachments: 2,931 Dmg/Pec

The excel sheets with all relivant data can be found Here!!

I also want to thank a few people:
Kaylan for using her Jzar scope.
Ricco for using his hunnir laser sight.
Akoz for his awsome app: EU screen grabber, wich I used to track most data.
And ofcourse Jdegre for his (imo most usefull EU tool avalible) Skill scanner.

Cheers, Sway.

Click to expand...

Thanks for this, it is really nice work.

Sway said:

After all day:

I figured out what the TT value of the gained skills is per run.
And yet another interresting thingie came to attention. Heres a list of average TT gained per Setup:

P5a without attachments: 6.08 Ped
P5a with attachments: 6.29 Ped (increased)

EP-40 without attachments: 5.82 Ped
EP-40 with attachments: 5,70 Ped (decreased)

Also note that I got LESS skills using a UL weapon when not maxed. This could be just randomness or something, but still.

What you asked is what will happen to the eco when the skills are added.
In general I see a increase of:
with the P5a 0,39% (both with and without attachments)
EP-40 without: 0,37
EP-40 with: 0,36

Yet this increase is not enough to justify the decay spent.:
P5a With attachments gives 2,905 Dmg/Pec (including skills)
P5a without attachments gives 2.977 Dmg/Ped (including skills)
P5a without attachments even without skills gives more then with attachments: 2,931 Dmg/Pec

The excel sheets with all relivant data can be found Here!!

I also want to thank a few people:
Kaylan for using her Jzar scope.
Ricco for using his hunnir laser sight.
Akoz for his awsome app: EU screen grabber, wich I used to track most data.
And ofcourse Jdegre for his (imo most usefull EU tool avalible) Skill scanner.

Cheers, Sway.

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The most likely reason why your getting wierd results are the time factor. Loot does have an impact of skillgains and probably how much you get in points. Ie do the test with the same gun at 2 different times will give different results.

Legion said:

The most likely reason why your getting wierd results are the time factor. Loot does have an impact of skillgains and probably how much you get in points. Ie do the test with the same gun at 2 different times will give different results.

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I will try to understand what you're saying here.
You either mean you have to do a run with the same gun/setup with 2 diffrent avatars at the same time/place.(1)
Or you are saying you need to do a run wit the same setup at the same time every day.(2)

In both cases I do not really agree with you, let me explain.
In my experience the skillgains and loot are not conected in some way. I tryed to see consequent changes/patterns but all I got was just randomness. (Meybe the test wasn't on a large enough scale, and meybe i'm not experienced enough, this is just my experience)

In case one, testing with 2 avatars at the same time. Lets say that indeed loot and skillgains are conected.
Then this is not the way to test this imo. Just look at events, where some have 3 globals in 1 hour and others none. Same guns used.

Case 2 Is not soilid either. I used to hunt argo every night between xxtime (almost same every day) yet I had my bad runs and my good runs. I might be wrong here becouse I didn't track on what day my bad/good runs are.

This is what I experienced.

You have been around mutch longer then I am so you probably know better/more then I do.
But what you are saying can not be varryfied by my findings. (or did I misinterpret your post?)

Sway.

Legion said:

The most likely reason why your getting wierd results are the time factor. Loot does have an impact of skillgains and probably how much you get in points. Ie do the test with the same gun at 2 different times will give different results.

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hmmm...


Legion, you continue to amaze me once again


J.


P.S. just to avoid further "theories", debates etc. - skillgain is a constant tied to the activity done. proved, over-proved million times and never seen to have a single or tiniest exceptions. period!

Sway said:

I will try to understand what you're saying here.
You either mean you have to do a run with the same gun/setup with 2 diffrent avatars at the same time/place.(1)
Or you are saying you need to do a run wit the same setup at the same time every day.(2)

In both cases I do not really agree with you, let me explain.
In my experience the skillgains and loot are not conected in some way. I tryed to see consequent changes/patterns but all I got was just randomness. (Meybe the test wasn't on a large enough scale, and meybe i'm not experienced enough, this is just my experience)

In case one, testing with 2 avatars at the same time. Lets say that indeed loot and skillgains are conected.
Then this is not the way to test this imo. Just look at events, where some have 3 globals in 1 hour and others none. Same guns used.

Case 2 Is not soilid either. I used to hunt argo every night between xxtime (almost same every day) yet I had my bad runs and my good runs. I might be wrong here becouse I didn't track on what day my bad/good runs are.

This is what I experienced.

You have been around mutch longer then I am so you probably know better/more then I do.
But what you are saying can not be varryfied by my findings. (or did I misinterpret your post?)

Sway.

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Thinking that time doesnt matter cant be concluded from the assumption of an 24h rythm.
For Crafting Etopia made a chart for quality ratings that showed a variance in time, that was alot shorter then 24h.
Watching globals you will notice those come in waves as well. I cant comment on a connection between loot/skill for that i didnt hunt enough but time is something that matters.

Lugzan said:

P.S. just to avoid further "theories", debates etc. - skillgain is a constant tied to the activity done. proved, over-proved million times and never seen to have a single or tiniest exceptions. period!

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Well, I would like to hear everyones opinion on this (and hard evidence) So legion, bring it on

John B Knight said:

Thinking that time doesnt matter cant be concluded from the assumption of an 24h rythm.
For Crafting Etopia made a chart for quality ratings that showed a variance in time, that was alot shorter then 24h.
Watching globals you will notice those come in waves as well. I cant comment on a connection between loot/skill for that i didnt hunt enough but time is something that matters.

Click to expand...

Sounds plausible...

Sway said:

I will try to understand what you're saying here.
You either mean you have to do a run with the same gun/setup with 2 diffrent avatars at the same time/place.(1)
Or you are saying you need to do a run wit the same setup at the same time every day.(2)

In both cases I do not really agree with you, let me explain.
In my experience the skillgains and loot are not conected in some way. I tryed to see consequent changes/patterns but all I got was just randomness. (Meybe the test wasn't on a large enough scale, and meybe i'm not experienced enough, this is just my experience)

In case one, testing with 2 avatars at the same time. Lets say that indeed loot and skillgains are conected.
Then this is not the way to test this imo. Just look at events, where some have 3 globals in 1 hour and others none. Same guns used.

Case 2 Is not soilid either. I used to hunt argo every night between xxtime (almost same every day) yet I had my bad runs and my good runs. I might be wrong here becouse I didn't track on what day my bad/good runs are.

This is what I experienced.

You have been around mutch longer then I am so you probably know better/more then I do.
But what you are saying can not be varryfied by my findings. (or did I misinterpret your post?)

Sway.

Click to expand...

John B Knight said:

Thinking that time doesnt matter cant be concluded from the assumption of an 24h rythm.
For Crafting Etopia made a chart for quality ratings that showed a variance in time, that was alot shorter then 24h.
Watching globals you will notice those come in waves as well. I cant comment on a connection between loot/skill for that i didnt hunt enough but time is something that matters.

Click to expand...

I'll start to answer john.
This is true, the timers you notice the easiest is the short one and yes that variance is shorter than 24 hours. There is a slower one though but today it's DAMN hard to find as MA changed it a few months back and i have been working on it since then. So far no 100% success, it seems damn random how they move the timer.

And to Sway.

Doing it with 2 different ava's at the same time would most likely produce the best result yes.
option 2 would work IF the timers worked as they used to do, if you did the test for 4 days as that was the amount of days the timer had the same rotation.

And the reason you didnt see any real difference is most likely due to several factors, amount of mobs, time you hunted at that particular spot etc. The most important timer is very slow but if you where actually in it you should notice quite a difference from when not in it.

In your case 2 if it was some time ago you would most likely had seen a difference that is IF the slower timer was in that area at certain days when you hunted. You would probably see a change every 4 days.

Legion, this thread is about scientific testing, not superstitious nonsense, there is nothing for you here.

Oleg said:

Legion, this thread is about scientific testing, not superstitious nonsense, there is nothing for you here.

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You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Oleg again

Oleg said:

Legion, this thread is about scientific testing, not superstitious nonsense, there is nothing for you here.

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What he said.

Oleg said:

Legion, this thread is about scientific testing, not superstitious nonsense, there is nothing for you here.

Click to expand...

...
"For Crafting Etopia made a chart for quality ratings that showed a variance in time, that was alot shorter then 24h.
Watching globals you will notice those come in waves as well. I cant comment on a connection between loot/skill for that i didnt hunt enough but time is something that matters."

ie time does matter.