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90% TT return

humanwoman

humanwoman

Old Alpha
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Posts
824
Has anyone tried to justify 90% TT return judging from MA business data?

I mean not that 90% is the highest possible long run TT return for somebody, but for everyone?

Will MA survive if everyone will get their 90% TT return?


For example:

I guess there were numbers in the annual report about how many PEDs are cycled through the game per year, then 10% of it is MA income, would it be really enough to run the office, pay 60 employers, pay for servers etc. and make profit?
 
Joker said:
i think MA has other sources of income besides 10% of our hunting returns or some decay deal...

pretty sure they get peds if not all from our tiering now...
auction fees...
etc
Click to expand...

auction fees go to fifty percent to ma and fifty to pp or that was what the writing on the wall used to say. Not sure if it still happens like that with the clds.
 
Okay look at it this way;
Deposit 100 dollars
90% return=90$
use that and your 90% return is 81$
Use that and your 90% return is 72.9$
See the pattern? Eventually that 100$ will all end up in MA's hands if you keep cycling it.
 
Corey 'Greyfox' said:
Okay look at it this way;
Deposit 100 dollars
90% return=90$
use that and your 90% return is 81$
Use that and your 90% return is 72.9$
See the pattern? Eventually that 100$ will all end up in MA's hands if you keep cycling it.
Click to expand...


Say your using bl1000+beast and 400ped ammo, that setup would on avrage leave you with 200ped decay (if I remember correctly) now you could still end up with 400ped loot back and still have paied MA 20$

Loot is paied by the people not the company

Eu is self sustained
 
mastermesh said:
auction fees go to fifty percent to ma and fifty to pp or that was what the writing on the wall used to say. Not sure if it still happens like that with the clds.
Click to expand...

Revenue is split 50% MindArk, 50% Planet Partner.

In the case of Calypso, it is split 50% MindArk, 25% Calypso team, 25% Deed owners
 
Corey 'Greyfox' said:
Okay look at it this way;
Deposit 100 dollars
90% return=90$
use that and your 90% return is 81$
Use that and your 90% return is 72.9$
See the pattern? Eventually that 100$ will all end up in MA's hands if you keep cycling it.
Click to expand...

Well trick is to cover it with mu

So 90% return from $100 is $90, if you get your minimum 10% mu you again have $100 to cycle. Manage to beat the 10% mu and you start making profit. My own logs show me however that it is closer to 95% tt return, but I'll probably have a clearer picture after I reach 100k cycled.
 
A lot of my losses were almost-but-not-quite compensated for recently by several HOFs (mining) in just a few days...and my last HOF before this was in October (yes, I waited 4 years to create an EU forums account :laugh:).

Funnily enough, I've had significantly better luck going unamped or with smaller amps than the larger level 5+ amps. Just recently, I hit an unamped alternative rock uber on RT when with say, a level 8 amp, I have never hit anything even half that size!

So yes, 90% seems just about right :yup: (in the long term at least)U
 
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I don't see a single answer on the topic here, it's NOT a discussion about your personal returns and how cycling PEDs work, please read the OP :(

Probably it's better to break it down to smaller pieces:

Is there any official info about the amount of PEDs cycled thru the game per year?
 
humanwoman said:
I don't see a single answer on the topic here, it's NOT a discussion about your personal returns and how cycling PEDs work, please read the OP :(

Probably it's better to break it down to smaller pieces:

Is there any official info about the amount of PEDs cycled thru the game per year?
Click to expand...

1) Get MA's annual report
2) Interpolate it
3) ????
4) Profit!

I think entropiaplanets has a copy. Otherwise you can just google it up.
 
Konve said:
It's avalible on Mindark's website, here;
http://www.mindark.se/investor-relations/financial-reports/
Click to expand...

OK, so I'm no accountant but the report for half a year says:

"Cash received from customers - 24 151 kSEK"

that is the amount of PEDs deposited, right?

It's 3.55M USD, so roughly 7M USD deposited per year.

So, if we all can have 90% TT return, MA would live on $700 000 per year?

Not a chance, MA has 66 employees, even if you pay 30k per year to each one, that's roughly 2M USD wages only.
 
humanwoman said:
OK, so I'm no accountant but the report for half a year says:

"Cash received from customers - 24 151 kSEK"

that is the amount of PEDs deposited, right?

It's 3.55M USD, so roughly 7M USD deposited per year.

So, if we all can have 90% TT return, MA would live on $700 000 per year?

Not a chance, MA has 66 employees, even if you pay 30k per year to each one, that's roughly 2M USD wages only.
Click to expand...

As there's no 'Cash paid to customers' line in the Cash Flow Statement, I would have to assume the reported amount of 24151kSEK is a NET amount. ie total deposits from players less total payments to players.
 
humanwoman said:
OK, so I'm no accountant but the report for half a year says:

"Cash received from customers - 24 151 kSEK"

that is the amount of PEDs deposited, right?

It's 3.55M USD, so roughly 7M USD deposited per year.

So, if we all can have 90% TT return, MA would live on $700 000 per year?

Not a chance, MA has 66 employees, even if you pay 30k per year to each one, that's roughly 2M USD wages only.
Click to expand...

No. If 70 million PED is deposited and 15 million PED is withdrawn - MA has 55 million PED to live on.

What actually happens ingame, ie what % you get on a hunt etc. has nothing what-so-ever to do with MA's revenue. Except the indirect connection that if people get too much, they will try to withdraw more money then MA has.
 
Konve said:
No. If 70 million PED is deposited and 15 million PED is withdrawn - MA has 55 million PED to live on.

What actually happens ingame, ie what % you get on a hunt etc. has nothing what-so-ever to do with MA's revenue. Except the indirect connection that if people get too much, they will try to withdraw more money then MA has.
Click to expand...

Me confused.....MA's revenue model is based off decay? they have even said this themselves

Rgds

Ace
 
Ace Flyster said:
Me confused.....MA's revenue model is based off decay? they have even said this themselves

Rgds

Ace
Click to expand...

MA says a lot of things. Unique items in loot and 100k TT items up for grabs since 2003. Yeah. Right. :dunce:
 
Serica said:
As there's no 'Cash paid to customers' line in the Cash Flow Statement, I would have to assume the reported amount of 24151kSEK is a NET amount. ie total deposits from players less total payments to players.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's a net amount as there is "Net sales" in that report of 23 907 kSEK. Probably somebody here is an accountant and can put all numbers together properly?

I'm looking for the amount of deposits per year.
 
Konve said:
No. If 70 million PED is deposited and 15 million PED is withdrawn - MA has 55 million PED to live on.

What actually happens ingame, ie what % you get on a hunt etc. has nothing what-so-ever to do with MA's revenue. Except the indirect connection that if people get too much, they will try to withdraw more money then MA has.
Click to expand...

Yeah, what I meant but didn't write down :), is if MA gets 7M USD in, and if all players can have up to 90% TT return and they withdraw, MA will have $700k to survive and it's not possible.

Even if 30% of players withdraw, MA won't survive.

I seriously doubt MA would take a risk like that, they must take away enough PEDs to survive even if the significant % of players withdraw.

That means all players can not have 90% TT return simultaneously (al least within the same year).
 
humanwoman said:
so roughly 7M USD deposited per year.

So, if we all can have 90% TT return, MA would live on $700 000 per year?
Click to expand...

No, because PED gets recycled. You get your 90% back, then you shoot with it again and get 90% of that back so you're down to 81%, etc.
 
Ace Flyster said:
Me confused.....MA's revenue model is based off decay? they have even said this themselves

Rgds

Ace
Click to expand...

Decay may be part of what ma makes, but it's not ALL that MA makes...

Case Description
Category: In-world (game play)
Subject of query: Other in-world questions
Details: As an owner of a shop and booth in Omegaton, I wonder where taxes on my shops are going. Normal LAs and Malls have participant owners that collect the Taxes. Omegaton, Genesis, and Sakura seem to have no LA owner or main estate terminal for the entire LA. Therefore, I'd like to know, where the heck are taxes collected from shops in Sakura, Genesis, and Omegaton going? If it's going back in to the loot pool, is there any way you can prove it? If it's going to Mind Ark or FPC, why? It seems a bit like taxation without any form of representation since there's no LA owner to talk to like there is with other shops on other LAs, malls, etc. If you can collect the taxes together, similar to the way ammo is collected in events to give to the winner of an event as a prize, maybe you can do similar with shop owners in game or maybe collect it for something for LA owners in the cities to vote on how it will be utilized in a voting booth or something, making the community stronger?
Click to expand...

....

Hi,

Thank you for your patience regarding this issue. Please accept my apology for the delayed reply.

I have been informed that in such cases MindArk and / or Planet Calypso are the owners in such cases and therefore receive the tax fees.
Kind regards,
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Old quote from the now defunct affiliate program website:
How does it work ?
So, how does an affiliate program look like on a game concept that's basically free, with no download fee or monthly subscription fees ? How does the operator actually earn money ?

Each tool, weapon, clothes, basically everything a player can utilize has a specific basic value. This base decreases by a certain preset amount every time an object is used until it reaches almost zero value and has to be "repaired".

The correlating amount of the in-game currency PED and therefor 10:1 US-Dollars of what the item decays gets distributed 50:50 between Mindark PE AB as operator of the Entropia Universe and the planet partner where the participant has the account registered and pursuing its activities, in our case First Planet Company and Planet Calypso.

Another source of income are fees and commissions attached to the in-game auction and player's shops. Every sale on the auction and shops produces a sales commission that also gets shared 50:50 between Mindark and the Planet Partner.
Click to expand...

I assume that MOST of the cash income for MA is probably from auctions? How many auctions are there every day?
 
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Jimmy B said:
No, because PED gets recycled. You get your 90% back, then you shoot with it again and get 90% of that back so you're down to 81%, etc.
Click to expand...

Exactly. It's like buying a lottery ticket for 50 PED and winning 50 PED. Most people just buy another ticket and win nothing on that one.

You bought two tickets for 100 PED total and won 50 PED (50 % return). But you still end up broke.
 
Corey 'Greyfox' said:
Okay look at it this way;
Deposit 100 dollars
90% return=90$
use that and your 90% return is 81$
Use that and your 90% return is 72.9$
See the pattern? Eventually that 100$ will all end up in MA's hands if you keep cycling it.
Click to expand...


Okay look at it this way
Deposit 100 dollars
Go to shinook, find a lvl 2 crafter...and get some for tt
90% tt return = 108$
use that and your 90% return is 116 $
Use that and your 90% return is 125 $
See the pattern? Eventually that 100$ can be doubled easily if you know the word "markup" and if you want to
 
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Matho said:
Eventually that 100$ can be doubled easily if you know the word "markup" and if you want to
Click to expand...

Yes, but that markup is coming from other players. MA is still getting their 10% of the PED cycled.
 
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Jimmy B said:
Yes, but that markup is coming from other players. MA is still getting their 90% of the PED cycled.
Click to expand...

Of course. But that was not the point of my post and Im sure you know it
 
Jimmy B said:
Yes, but that markup is coming from other players. MA is still getting their 90% of the PED cycled.
Click to expand...

Their 10%. (ofc there is PP-part, and such)
 
Matho said:
Okay look at it this way
Deposit 100 dollars
Go to shinook, find a lvl 2 crafter...and get some for tt
90% tt return = 108$
use that and your 90% return is 116 $
Use that and your 90% return is 125 $
See the pattern? Eventually that 100$ can be doubled easily if you know the word "markup" and if you want to
Click to expand...

Yes, that using MU, but I beleive the OP was asking about the 90% in TT. So yes by selling for MU you can increase the amount you start with, but you are increasing your return by selling to other players. The PED you get when selling for MU does not come out of MA's pocket, and if I had to take a guess I would say most people don't get ahead with MU alone(considering the vast number of loot complaints on the forum). So I think it would be fair to say that most people are just cycling their deposit until it's gone, with a small amount of MU added in from time to time to decrease how quickly their start amount goes to MA.

Look at it this way, we both start off with 100$ Your a crafter and I'm a miner.
I go out and spend my 100$ all in one run, of that I have 90$ left over with lets say an average of 110% MU. You then offer to buy all my ore's, enmatters off me at 108%MU. I will then have 97.2$, you will have 2.80$. You use the 90$ in TT value of ores all in crafting and get back 81$ in TT but your a good crafter and end up with an average MU of 125%, so now you find another player to sell to at that MU and you now have 101.25$. So far MA has made 19$ off of us, even though you are 1.25$ higher then you started and I am only 2.80$ lower then I started. The reason for this is the third person involved, who bought your crafted items. Of coarse they will go and generate decay and the TT return will lower so MA will make money. However, with MU and people to sell to at MU, a player can still increase their base starting amount. MA still makes their cut as they are only responsible for TT value.
 
I can share a example from my ventures then:

A couple of 1k+ finds in these stats. biggest 2.2k if I remember correctly.

Spent tt mining 93927,08 (finder decay, amp decay and probe costs)
Return tt mining 87423,24 (Mineral return in tt)


If 1000 persons "lost" 10 000 ped each, it would bring a income of 1 mill usd. That should do it.
 
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guys, this thread is not about how one can survive longest with his ped.

@ op:
i fear it's gonna be pretty hard, next to impossible. i think MA states in their annual report the total turnover for entropia - but do not define turnover. we do need to know total turnover for the loot giving professions, excluding turnover via auction, tiering, whatever.

also i doubt in the annual report the tt payout is shown somewhere, and it's hard to figure this out via MA profit ./. salaries, overhead costs etc.

so imo, both payback and turnover are probably impossible to get from MA's reports, which are necessary to answer the original question.

MA however never stated 90% ROI, it's what players observe in medium term logs. MA only "aim on average cost of 1 usd per hour"...
 
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