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Want to Improve Hunting Loot? Fix Crafting

Shadowsong said:
Valid point.. could be things are dropping more frequently than we are aware. I guess maybe it comes down to managing expectations, both from MA and player side. As a player, if I expect interesting loot, I'll be more inclined to spend resources and time chasing it, if I expect boring loot, I'll rather not waste the time or ped.
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DoubleWolf said:
I certainly wasn't looking for an item drop galore. 10k HOFs aren't all that common, especially it seems here lately. Why can't we just bring the TT value of the HOF down to ordinary loot levels but put a nice piece of equipment in there instead? But seeing as how some items have not dropped in YEARS, what would be the harm in releasing one per year (good suggestion btw Huskie). Sure, you can reference SGA (which I still don't see the point... why not just release more of the original model when people would've been happy with that?), but that was 2 or 3 years ago now. If markup on items have gone down, it's because there is fewer people willing to buy them, not an increased supply.

It's hard to know what's going on behind the scenes there at MA. Does the switch for some of these items get flipped on and off, or is the drop rate tied to the number of active players? The latter would seem the correct way to do it so that as the player base grows, so does the number of items.

This is kind of getting off topic talking about drop rates, but I think it is an important aspect because if you fix crafting, people will have to buy those crafted goods to use for some purpose. What would be the motivating factor to use those goods?
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Some items still drop, question is, where do they come from?
Could just as well be from banned or old accounts that has been
reseted when it comes to inventory.
So, the interesting part would be to know how many of these good
items really are new drops...

Either way they go, motivation will be low when it comes to hunt
items in loot. If MA did announced that they will drop more, say
one item per year of each, what will happen when it drop in january
and you know you have to wait until next year for next drop?
Change mob and hunt something less fun?
Probably more fun for some thou', compared with how it is today,
when they thinking that good stuff don't drop at all... ;)
 
Kim|Calypso said:
Thank you for this excellent post and I agree with the statements you make. I've been thinking about ways to attack these issues for quiet some time now and hopefully we will have time to get serious about it after the summer.
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Yes, Johns post is good and on the money. But what he describes and suggest isn't news, several of us, myself included, have brought similar thoughts into the open over the last 2 years.
We noticed the difference in return percentage very quickly and tried to adjust our game play accordingly. Thing is that you reach a point where the only adjustment left to do is either stop doing anything at all or deposit more.
I know which solution Mindark prefers but that's just not going to happen since every player has a limit and most reached and passed that limit some time back.

Mindark's response to our criticism has been that we are whiners and that EU truly is dynamic. The player base have been equally dynamic but as I said, there is a limit to everything. After years of debating nothing positive have emerged in the aspect of game and player economics, at lest not for the part of the player base that stuck around for years doing our best to entertain ourselves and keeping this game running. And here you come, telling us that you have been thinking about this and that you will try to get some time to look into it after summer...
Don't get me wrong, what you do and have done over the last year is much appreciated but isn't this an issue that need to be addressed by Mindark? Calypso is hardly going to have it's on stand alone economy is it?
 
Mischief said:
Yes, Johns post is good and on the money. But what he describes and suggest isn't news, several of us, myself included, have brought similar thoughts into the open over the last 2 years.
We noticed the difference in return percentage very quickly and tried to adjust our game play accordingly. Thing is that you reach a point where the only adjustment left to do is either stop doing anything at all or deposit more.
I know which solution Mindark prefers but that's just not going to happen since every player has a limit and most reached and passed that limit some time back.

Mindark's response to our criticism has been that we are whiners and that EU truly is dynamic. The player base have been equally dynamic but as I said, there is a limit to everything. After years of debating nothing positive have emerged in the aspect of game and player economics, at lest not for the part of the player base that stuck around for years doing our best to entertain ourselves and keeping this game running. And here you come, telling us that you have been thinking about this and that you will try to get some time to look into it after summer...
Don't get me wrong, what you do and have done over the last year is much appreciated but isn't this an issue that need to be addressed by Mindark? Calypso is hardly going to have it's on stand alone economy is it?
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MINDARK is Calyspo...... with all the relative consequences.............
in other hand is nice to see someone from MA (KIM) that officially write that yes in effect loot need to fixed.
 
Dr.D.C. said:
MINDARK is Calyspo...... with all the relative consequences.............
in other hand is nice to see someone from MA (KIM) that officially write that yes in effect loot need to fixed.
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True of course
 
Based on the recent VU changes to hunting loot, I feel inclined to bump this thoughtful post. :)

I encourage the right folks to reread and see if it sparks any ideas.

Thank you
 
I have just recently started to play again, and cos and returns are just as shitty as always. Im talking about crafting.
It was way more funnier a few years ago, more hofs and a bigger chance to be able to afford another run with the same amount of clicks.
If MA wants to increase MU on hunting loot people like me, gambling creatures, will eventually stop buying your shit and mu will fall again, IF MA doesn´t do something about returns and cos, or SOMETHING that keeps us ingame!
You better take care of the gamblers and crafters and the crafting profession, can´t leave us out, we feed the loot pool more than anyone else! Fact!
 
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Said it before, will say it again: Crafting should be a 100% return system, with no TT loss, at least on BPs with max COS... And it should be advertised as such. The current 90/95% bar should be replaced with a returns bar, which should go up to 100% dependent on skills and QR.

Still add variance, so that people can global/hof or have bad runs, but overall this should just be a profession that people are encouraged to cycled ped through, as it helps the other two main professions survive.

Further to this, new ranges of (L) items need to be released using existing materials with specific advantages over looted equipment.

Edit:

I should clarify: The other two professions should not have to lose more because of this, the defect should be absorbed by MA with the expectation that there will be more incentive to mine and hunt due to a demand for their resources.
 




YES! +rep :wise:
This thread must be "Sticky" with big, bold, blinking font.
And must be moved to the "Suggestions/WishList".

But two years passed after Kim start thinking ( post #3 ) and nothing, so no hope for me.

Kim|Calypso said:
Thank you for this excellent post and I agree with the statements you make. I've been thinking about ways to attack these issues for quiet some time now and hopefully we will have time to get serious about it after the summer.
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KakLo said:
But two years passed after Kim start thinking ( post #3 ) and nothing, so no hope for me.
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I can´t see it so bad as you do.

Some ideas mentioned in this thread got some attention.

Last two years some new BPs got introduced that use some of the former unused components (well L BPs, using low amounts), On the other side some more component BPs got introduced (not really needed), positive to mention this new components got used by other BPs.

With VU15 the idea about dropping pure TT food (ammo/shrapnels) got introduced, solving oversupply of problem caused by 10kish oil drops.

Reducing number of mobs that drop same comon loots also found some attention, mobs now drop only one animal oil and lot less other components they used to drop.

On topic:

JC brought the problem down to its source.
People don´t craft enough, the reason for that is not caused by supply of resources.

Problem from my point of view is uL SIB gear dropping more and more. Every PP introduces this gear without looking what impact this got on economy.
Crafting L gear is obsolete, as most people focus on uL SIB.
Only a few L things got a significant advantage compared to their uL counterparts.
This is a glitch, if advantage of L is egaliced as soon MU on L reaches 105% there is no reason for crafters to produce this items, as there is no buyers. You can´t craft full TT items (using residue) below 105% markup without losing befor you start.

Solution would be completly overwork of balance between L and uL.
If crafted L becomes significantly better than uL and still is slightly better than looted L, there would be a market for crafted L.

Rebalancing that way is a problem, as it would be bad to change stats of existing gear, so the way has to be introducing new BPs to manage it.
Well it surely could be done by changing stats of existing gear, but wow the reactions from comunity no better dont do it. At least not on the uL gear. Changing stats on L gear, very likely would cause less trouble, but if done that way there should be direct information provided by MA/PP what L items got changed and in what way.

Only section where it is that way is the miner gear.
Crafted L finders are way better than available uL gear, more deapth
Antoher crafting field that is still good is the mining amps, the amount of uL amps in that sector is very very small, so L amps got used (sellable).

Now we have some more crafting sectors that are difficult, thats tailoring, furniture.
There is nearly no market, due to equip fee on clothes most players refuse to change their outfits due to this fee.

Allready mentioned in this thread, make a use for crafted clothes would be a good idea.
Using crafted clothes in a armor production process, no bad idea.
Upgrading crafted clothes to armors, also would create a demand for it (Idea: Basic Pattern Shirt + any crafted plate + some resource = Bullet Proof Shirt MK1). This Armor should be customizable and have same apearence than the clothes used to craft it.
Upgrading of clothes to armor could be done by BPs (another field for crafters) or using NPC like Shroom Guy

Actually no idea how to improve the furniture sector.

Its difficult to find good solution to make crafting more interesting.
 
Yes, they've made a few improvements. :)

More improvements would be better.
 
I made an elegant post that pointed toward a simple problem:

Make crafting items (from materials we already loot ingame) that can compete with looted items.

Instead we got explosives made from TT material.


*Sigh*
 
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Dab said:
The Mindark Item Store is really expanding quickly. I guess this answers the question Skywalker asked in his thread about EU going mainstream.
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The EU item store continues and will continue to expand...

Starter items from the TT were fine as well as starter mission rewards which are untradeable or limited with low TT.

When they introduced the various tokens, you could see the writing on the wall (I could anyway.)
 
JohnCapital said:
I made an elegant post that pointed toward a simple problem:

Make crafting items (from materials we already loot ingame) that can compete with looted items.

Instead we got explosives made from TT material.


*Sigh*
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And if MA doesn't change this soon couldn't they run into some issues again relating to online casinos as they did way back when they offer peds and other stuff in loot?

Yes yes of course I said the same about lootable space but well..it still could happen too. :)
 
Theres loads ways ma could increase the use of crafting items made from loot but the problem is somewhere along the line your going to p**s someone off whether they got ul gear etc.

For instance I was thinking the other day wouldn’t it be great if we had a selection of new limited armors which are low, med and high tt. Low tt be around maybe 5 to 10 ped max tt but also would have high durability like the current limited armors have now. The low tt armor would be great not only for low budget users but would come in handy for the daily missions, random one to 2 day events which seem to be happen a lot lately. Med range tt would be handy for the middle lvl irons say around 40 to 50 ped although that number and the above for low would need to be tested to see if it can survive long enough for say 2 to 3k mobs if hunting eco. High tt for the serious grinders doing the 10k irons. Again this armor should have enough options so for instance a low lvl user would use the armor for low lvl mobs and a high lvl user would use a different armor for high lvl mobs. You could even add effects to these armors like hp buffer, regen increase, skill increase, damage increase, etc etc

But that being said above, although id like the idea it brings me to what I first said, that something like this would p**s off either ul owners, current armor makers, people who own some of the rare items for instance vampire cloak etc and would be worried about a devalue in their items. not to mention I dont like the idea of adding more stuff unless you remove the old blueprints and replace them with the new ones, after all what’s the point in keep adding stuff if the existing stuff is completely broken or rubbish.

Like I said in a previous post regarding explosive projectile blueprint you could make this fair for all lvl of players by having some materials needed to drop from all lvl of mobs after x amount mobs killed to stop hoarding (reduceing drop rates etc). Even make some of the materials rareish which would I dont know maybe cause a hof for a 1 ped item(found a half made XXXX harness). Would certainly break up the bore of killing 2k of a mob. Its about giving the player a postive feeling like their doing ok their getting hofs and a few globals, they see some mu. Not like the current system hardly any mu, hofs pff not going their for hunting anyways. By adding things to the system would certainly break things up when your doing irons keep you more awake not just afk shooting while you watch a movie on your other screen or something.

You could even do something with guns, mindforce, etc to make them of more of a use but again brings me to my top statement that somewhere along the line someone will get p**sed off.

But either way the cycle of mu is completely broken in its current state as it is. The whole idea that hunters and miners supply the crafters which in turn the crafters supply the hunters and the miners with goods made from their loot. While it might give you the perception that your making mu on your profession thus in turn making it a more positive experience and fun to hunt mine or craft the truth is most will not, but it makes the whole idea fun anyways(certainly would for me knowing im doing my part in the economy). But either way ul killed this hunter and miner to crafter then crafter to hunter and miner cycle. Well with the current saturation of ul gear vs population.

Enough of my thoughts though, sure others have better ideas which is not bias or have a vested interest elsewhere.

shaun
 
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slick27 said:
Theres loads ways ma could increase the use of crafting items made from loot but the problem is somewhere along the line your going to p**s someone off whether they got ul gear etc.

For instance I was thinking the other day wouldn’t it be great if we had a selection of new limited armors which are low, med and high tt. Low tt be around maybe 5 to 10 ped max tt but also would have high durability like the current limited armors have now. The low tt armor would be great not only for low budget users but would come in handy for the daily missions, random one to 2 day events which seem to be happen a lot lately. Med range tt would be handy for the middle lvl irons say around 40 to 50 ped although that number and the above for low would need to be tested to see if it can survive long enough for say 2 to 3k mobs if hunting eco. High tt for the serious grinders doing the 10k irons. Again this armor should have enough options so for instance a low lvl user would use the armor for low lvl mobs and a high lvl user would use a different armor for high lvl mobs. You could even add effects to these armors like hp buffer, regen increase, skill increase, damage increase, etc etc

But that being said above, although id like the idea it brings me to what I first said, that something like this would p**s off either ul owners, current armor makers, people who own some of the rare items for instance vampire cloak etc and would be worried about a devalue in their items. not to mention I dont like the idea of adding more stuff unless you remove the old blueprints and replace them with the new ones, after all what’s the point in keep adding stuff if the existing stuff is completely broken or rubbish.

Like I said in a previous post regarding explosive projectile blueprint you could make this fair for all lvl of players by having some materials needed to drop from all lvl of mobs after x amount mobs killed to stop hoarding (reduceing drop rates etc). Even make some of the materials rareish which would I dont know maybe cause a hof for a 1 ped item(found a half made XXXX harness). Would certainly break up the bore of killing 2k of a mob. Its about giving the player a postive feeling like their doing ok their getting hofs and a few globals, they see some mu. Not like the current system hardly any mu, hofs pff not going their for hunting anyways. By adding things to the system would certainly break things up when your doing irons keep you more awake not just afk shooting while you watch a movie on your other screen or something.

You could even do something with guns, mindforce, etc to make them of more of a use but again brings me to my top statement that somewhere along the line someone will get p**sed off.

But either way the cycle of mu is completely broken in its current state as it is. The whole idea that hunters and miners supply the crafters which in turn the crafters supply the hunters and the miners with goods made from their loot. While it might give you the perception that your making mu on your profession thus in turn making it a more positive experience and fun to hunt mine or craft the truth is most will not, but it makes the whole idea fun anyways(certainly would for me knowing im doing my part in the economy). But either way ul killed this hunter and miner to crafter then crafter to hunter and miner cycle. Well with the current saturation of ul gear vs population.

Enough of my thoughts though, sure others have better ideas which is not bias or have a vested interest elsewhere.

shaun
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Honestly there is no way to improve the state of the economy and the trinity of professions without pissing off UL buyers...

(L) items should be better than UL items.. guns should have lower profession levels, higher dps, higher eco than the best UL counterparts.. The exchange from L to UL is having to pay markup.. you pay markup for the better item, but it is UL.. The problem now is that the most eco/efficient guns/tools/armors are actually better than any possible L counterparts that could be crafted..

At least this way UL-sib gear would still hold value because players can skip out on paying markup.
 
Rocket192 said:
Honestly there is no way to improve the state of the economy and the trinity of professions without pissing off UL buyers...

(L) items should be better than UL items.. guns should have lower profession levels, higher dps, higher eco than the best UL counterparts.. The exchange from L to UL is having to pay markup.. you pay markup for the better item, but it is UL.. The problem now is that the most eco/efficient guns/tools/armors are actually better than any possible L counterparts that could be crafted..

At least this way UL-sib gear would still hold value because players can skip out on paying markup.
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As ma have raised the bar on the dmg to pec on guns that is getting ever closer to the super eco guns, this could bring about more problems introducing more eco guns / lower profession lvl etc. After all why train to lvl 100 for mod merc etc if you can get a l gun with similar stats at lvl 50. Yes they use damage enhancers in ul guns over l, so event wise i wouldn't thought it be a problem. But this could create more problems even if you raise the dmg or lower the skill lvl it means more people are going to have to hunt bigger mobs and will they have the other skills in place for instance evade etc. I agree with you i even though of it but with marcorp 7 ul and few ten edition guns you would effect something along the line adding limited versions better then them whether it be skills, ul gun prices, loot payouts or actual prices on the market.
 
And why keep weapon, armor, fap, item in loot if crafter can make them. Instead of drop a perfected fap, hunter should loot anaeratrox balls to allow crafter who find perf-fap bp to make it. weapon in loot are mostly same-better than the crafted one but much cheaper... so why craft again ?

Last thing i m thinking about is if more ppl need more stuff, and considering the complexity of some weapon, crafter need make some specialisation, actually few ppl are enought for everyone. for 100 hunter how many miner and crafter % should it be for supply all the stuff to have a good economy? Actually it's like 10 ppl who can supply all the entropia system.

we need more complexe bp with more kind of component ( and they are enought compo in game actually) with hight value /try (ex: for a 20 ped tt weapon, 50% of the total value should be cover by the compo and the rest with the residu. Actual is more-less 20%) and a better success than the near 30% actual.
and no more item in loot ( exept special event).

it should make all the stuff usefull with a better % and motivate ppl to trade more directly to ressource-finder-player.

i'm hoping i'm clear :)
 
iulrorck said:
Last thing i m thinking about is if more ppl need more stuff, and considering the complexity of some weapon, crafter need make some specialisation, actually few ppl are enought for everyone. for 100 hunter how many miner and crafter % should it be for supply all the stuff to have a good economy? Actually it's like 10 ppl who can supply all the entropia system.
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yea this is true...

Rocket192 said:
Honestly there is no way to improve the state of the economy and the trinity of professions without pissing off UL buyers...
Click to expand...

just remove 99% of all L stuff looted in hunting, add materials and bps so nearly all the used L items are crafted....
kinda like it should be...
problem solved

there was a time someone said: "why are there no events for carfters?"
and someone answered: "if alot of hunters hunt there is a huge demand for crafted weapons so those events go hand in hand"
this was the p5a/apis time...i can't get why they destroyed all that
nowadays the hunters flood the market with cheap weapons while events...

why don't eomon drop materials to craft e.l.m weapons? stupid
 
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Magnus Mag said:
yea this is true...

just remove 99% of all L stuff looted in hunting, add materials and bps so nearly all the used L items are crafted....
kinda like it should be...
problem solved

there was a time someone said: "why are there no events for carfters?"
and someone answered: "if alot of hunters hunt there is a huge demand for crafted weapons so those events go hand in hand"
this was the p5a/apis time...i can't get why they destroyed all that
nowadays the hunters flood the market with cheap weapons while events...

why don't eomon drop materials to craft e.l.m weapons? stupid
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Well the bolded part is it.
It really would go hand in hand if crafted items would be needed to get into Top 100 list of big events.
But that is not the case!
What is needed to win events is: High End UL gun at Tir 10

there is absolutely no more need to craft any weapon.
All weapons I crafted lately are collecting dust, nobody wants it!
Some of them I used of myself, just to get rid of it, although I don´t need to use L as I own several uL guns myself :D

The problem is:
TO much UL guns with way better stats than any crafted counterpart! Beside that tirable to 10, what you you nearly never manage to get on L weapons

Same goes for armors and FAPs!

Anybody out there still using UR125 or UR175? (nice FAPs btw)
With every big event more FAPs find their way into EU, and those make all crafted ones obsolete.

Even worse the noob FAP everyone gets by doing only 1 mission.

Why anybody should craft Vivo T5 or T10 these days when every noob gets a way better FAP for mission that cost less than 10 PED to complete ?

All I have to say: Balancing manager at MA office has abolutely no clue how EU works nor of basic economy!

All demand for crafting actually killed by hunting loots, mission rewards and event prices.
 
GoNi said:
Well the bolded part is it.
It really would go hand in hand if crafted items would be needed to get into Top 100 list of big events.
But that is not the case!
What is needed to win events is: High End UL gun at Tir 10
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i mean events like migration...
back then there were no or only few events MM style..
 
Before MA come up with some new brilliant, new, pathetic and useless idea that means they believe more blueprints are needed in game.

Please use some of the 90% now useless ones instead.

Before MA segregate the professions even further.


Rgds

Ace
 
There is no point making these suggestions to MA unfortunately.

JC made a very well thought out post identifying the problems with the route the game was going and what needs to be done to fix it.

Kim even acknowledged his post which just shows that it was actually something that needed to be looked at.


Sadly however with the introduction of EP1-4 th result has been the exact opposite of what was needed to help fix the games economy. If when we make suggestions the end result makes the games economy worse what incentive is there to help MA try improve the game?
 
I can offer a simple idea to improve the economy. This idea is already working on Arkadia (so there are possibilities to implementing), and remains to implement it everywhere. You do not like manufactured weapons, armor, or a FAP? No problems! Buy crafted full TT FAP and put into refiner. The result would be a TT amount of Universal Ammo, and maybe something else, such as Mini-ModFAP (L) for only 100 uses (weapons - ModMerc's (L) for 500 shots and so on...). Thus, to obtain a Mini-ModFAP(L) you must destroy maybe 1-3, maybe 30-100 crafted FAP, which are made by crafter for you. And pay them a MU for crafted FAP's. There can be other mini items, looted during this process, and higher level refined item (weapon, armor, etc) can give higher level (but always with limited use) reward. Also, Universal Ammo, given during this process, will limit your maximal possibilities to buy and refine all around, because UA should be used in hunting or mining, and cannot be traded. All mini items should be tradable, of course.
Where taken the idea and mechanism: on planet Arkadia, Aakas instances crafted Arkadian Keys requires processing to a mini keys. During refining you have a chance to get Alpha Core Cards.

Or may be something like this: Gyro Combat FAP-22 (L), full TT + 1 Redulite Ingot (or maybe Scoria leg) ---> refiner ----> Adj. GYRO Combat FAP-22 (L) (just 10% TT value of original item!) + UA + possible SOOTO loot (Gyro FAP Improved (L) (1 PED TT)).

Also forgot, there can be also all these shitty (and good) boosters, pills and drugs in loot :)

PS mini-ATH please for me, in gratitude for my great idea! :laugh:
 
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I feel it makes more sense if explosive bp gave out shrapnels instead metal residues. Since it is ammo.

I think one of the reason that they want to kill the MU of things could be the CLD and AUD. Before, small/part time traders are able to make some income. Now that their income is supplemented with the constant income of deeds. Many people are making too much peds and then making withdrawls. The potential for withdrawls are going too high. To fix that they lower the MU, thus lowing the potential for people to make withdrawls. I'm not sure if the withdrawl amount did go up or not after CLD and AUD. I could imagine that it did.

I don't know. I'm still pretty new to the game, but this is how i see it.
 
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