Info: Eco hunting, what you NEED to know.

Joat said:

I think it is a bit different, but could be translated to damage, from a players p.o.v
It isn't the damage that is calculated, it's based on the amount of interactions
you had. Every interaction cost the same, therefor every interaction with exact same
setup has a linear cost, even a MISS. Sometimes you get lag on your damage, so they
pop up in chat "long" time after your interaction, same with a MISS.
They are registred at a certain object.
Shot at the side at the mob, and it isn't registred.
Damage (and MISS) is just a tool to regulate your amount of interactions with
the object. Thats my p.o.v of it at least...

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Yes. It could be that way.

But we will never know for sure because mindark isn't going to release their loot equations and what factors that are used to determine loot.

This is what makes the game fascinating to me. A lot of guess work and ideas and experimentation to get to where we are now, knowledge-wise about how this game works.

Very intrigueing to me...

Silvia Universe said:

Weren't you the one who claims eco don't matter??

Now you really confusing me

Read back in these posts and see how many fragments are in my storage.

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I said that eco is useful if you want to kill more mobs. As you kill more mobs, the chances of looting fragments increases per hunt. Or maybe I'm wrong and right at the same time, and the quantity of fragments in loot increases proportionally with pumped ped even with less kills. Only one way to find out, test it.

nlnforever said:

Mrproper is the only guy here discuss with his data/graph to base his argument. His data might not be insufficient, his method might not be correct, his conclusion could be wrong, etc... but it does not matter me. Because I see his great effort in recording and generating those data to prove his acknowledgement. In the other hand, other guys are arguing without any effort in providing data/proof to protect your argument.

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I have some data, not scientifically gathered but based on a comparison, and observation.
I used to hunt Formidon almost every day with a soc mate, for months on end.
he had more skills/hp than i did. i used almost all L equipment, he was "old school" and did not.
I used p5a/bear L with 6a plates/L fap, he had karma killer/UL jag with 5b plates/ek2600.
our damage/sec was similar comparing both weapons, we would both use 200 ped of ammo, and when his ammo had run out i always had about 15-20 ped left. Of course i had to heal a bit more than him, so probably shot a bit less than he did, but back at the TT he was only satisfied with the hunt on the best runs we had, and i was only ever unhappy on the very worst. In the end he could not or would not adapt, and sold out, i did not..

to put it simply, i would just prefer to loot more mobs for my peds than hope for some mythical compensation with better loots for being uneco until someone can provide me with better data to support this.

I know how to make profit in Entropia. Is actually easy. End eco. Don't play. If you play, you pay. The more you play, the more you pay.
Just buy cheap crap, sell when is more expensive, exploit all players as much as you can and take all extra cash out as soon as you can. More and more people do that and works for them. So good luck with that.

FallenAngel said:

I have some data, not scientifically gathered but based on a comparison, and observation.
I used to hunt Formidon almost every day with a soc mate, for months on end.
he had more skills/hp than i did. i used almost all L equipment, he was "old school" and did not.
I used p5a/bear L with 6a plates/L fap, he had karma killer/UL jag with 5b plates/ek2600.
our damage/sec was similar comparing both weapons, we would both use 200 ped of ammo, and when his ammo had run out i always had about 15-20 ped left. Of course i had to heal a bit more than him, so probably shot a bit less than he did, but back at the TT he was only satisfied with the hunt on the best runs we had, and i was only ever unhappy on the very worst. In the end he could not or would not adapt, and sold out, i did not..

to put it simply, i would just prefer to loot more mobs for my peds than hope for some mythical compensation with better loots for being uneco until someone can provide me with better data to support this.

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Team dynamics are delicate and your loot is influenced by the team loot, and the team loot is influenced by your loot. So you spent 10% less than him. How much did you loot compared to him? This would be the most important result. Was it similar loot, yours higher or lower?

I have an answer for this:

Everybody looses!

mrproper said:

I said that eco is useful if you want to kill more mobs. As you kill more mobs, the chances of looting fragments increases per hunt. Or maybe I'm wrong and right at the same time, and the quantity of fragments in loot increases proportionally with pumped ped even with less kills. Only one way to find out, test it.

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Sure you know what I grab my Opalo amped with E amp15 and hope for a big loot increase on fragments on them puny's

mrproper said:

Team dynamics are delicate and your loot is influenced by the team loot, and the team loot is influenced by your loot. So you spent 10% less than him. How much did you loot compared to him? This would be the most important result. Was it similar loot, yours higher or lower?

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i thought i covered that in my comment but to be more precise, my loot was always lower than his but closer to what i had spent than his loot was, so on the worst days i lost less than him and when loot was good i won more than he did in proportion to what i had spent.

I just wanted to add that the problem with "testing" loot theories is that MA can (and probably does) change the general loot distribution mechanism on a regular basis. So even if you cycled a million peds last year on a perfectly designed experiment, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's still true today.

Every Lottery owner would start tuning it the moment he feels somebody might have a winning strategy. Why bother when you can make a system with all bets having negative expectation.

Silvia Universe said:

Sure you know what I grab my Opalo amped with E amp15 and hope for a big loot increase on fragments on them puny's

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that wont happen, you cant increase the stack sizes like at argos with iron.

Neil Stockton said:

I just wanted to add that the problem with "testing" loot theories is that MA can (and probably does) change the general loot distribution mechanism on a regular basis. So even if you cycled a million peds last year on a perfectly designed experiment, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's still true today.

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and this can happen, you could have noticed that you dont see knight armor parts or pixie armor parts much drop as they used to. But you can also expect it goes to better loot table

Freelancer_Main said:

that wont happen, you cant increase the stack sizes like at argos with iron.

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Don't tell me that, tell Mrproper.

Originally Posted by mrproper

I said that eco is useful if you want to kill more mobs. As you kill more mobs, the chances of looting fragments increases per hunt. Or maybe I'm wrong and right at the same time, and the quantity of fragments in loot increases proportionally with pumped ped even with less kills. Only one way to find out, test it.

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idk know i didnt test it, it could work.
I just know that on argos you can loot big stacks of iron, while on drones this isnt possible with gazz.
If you could loot fragments from punys same way like iron from argos.

I think we already explained everything that was supposed to be told, its your choice to either go with eco or not depend on it.

Freelancer_Main said:

idk know i didnt test it, it could work.
I just know that on argos you can loot big stacks of iron, while on drones this isnt possible with gazz.
If you could loot fragments from punys same way like iron from argos.

I think we already explained everything that was supposed to be told, its your choice to either go with eco or not depend on it.

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Ofcourse and I can see your point of the *uneco setup/ overamping* there is some truth in that too I am aware of that....but pls tell me, when someone is going to *overkill* on puny just for the fragments I ask myself......is this for real??
You cannot say that would be a good idea right???

Freelancer_Main said:

that wont happen, you cant increase the stack sizes like at argos with iron.

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Freelancer_Main said:

idk know i didnt test it, it could work.

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Don't worry, I'll test this next week.

Jimmy B said:

You need more well defined hypotheses really, as the answer depends on the distribution of loot. The more fat-tailed the distribution (ie. higher importance of rare big loots) the more kills you will need. A simple way to see that would be to imagine a loot distribution where 99% of mobs are no-looters and all the loot is returned in the remaining 1% of mobs. In that situation 1000 mobs would clearly be hugely insufficient as you'd only expect to have had 10 looting mobs.

Also, there are other possibilities, for instance C - eco matters but a 20% less efficient set up only returns 10% less loot.

My instincts are also that you don't have enough data here.

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Just a note why I think your proposition is flawed. You assume loot is random in it's entire distribution, where there are no experiment to show this. If this were true, then yes, you would need to have sufficient samples to reduce the bias of large loots to less than the measured bias.

For example, if you want to compare weapons with a 20% difference in eco, and you know that the tested mob can give loots up to 1300 times the cost to kill, and you want this large loot to occur at least once (statistically), then you need to hunt 100%/20%*1300 mobs, or 6500 mobs. That way, in case that loot occurs in one or the other data sets that you compare, you should have less difference made by random loot and more by setup bias. For Atrox, you can do that test for less than 6500 ped. And we have tests on similar mobs with over 350.000 ped.

Furthermore there are experiments with long extensive runs, and we can look to see if any type of loot return is given before a big payout, or the loot before big hits and after big hits is biased in some way. If so, then I don't need to hunt 1000 mobs, because the 10 looting mobs are not a fixed number.

As loot is "dynamic" and it's value is a corrective function (demonstrated in several experiments), if I use sucky weapons or methods, I will "loot" 20 mobs out of 1000. If I'm very eco and don't decay anything but a low decay weapon, then I would "loot" 5 mobs out of 1000. Experiments have shown that even the current mob's loot immediately provides loot depending on the cost to kill.

The big sample rate is important in long term non-comparative tests. But with comparative tests made to detect bias, you require smaller samples. If the bias is detected, and is higher than the error margin in several tests made by several independent testers, then I don't see a problem with smaller samples, as the median error is smaller than the bias.

That is of course, if loot is not random, but dependent on cost to kill and including a "residue" corrective function to bring the long-term return to 90%, which has been shown multiple times. If it's not, then you are right and I am wrong.