Why Space is PVP (IMHO)

Dan59 said:

They solved it with import - export taxes and fees or in extreme situation with embargo (in our case we can talk about possibility of planet bound resources or items). War is left for end when all other solutions do not work.
In EU war is used as first and ultimate solution.

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If I understand, you two alternatives are

1. Import taxes
2. Plant-bound items

Well, I'd love to here your explanation of how those taxes would work. As for planet-bound items, that is problematic. Does that apply to all stacakables, even those that are lootable on other planets? What about items, both (L) and UL?

Space is PVP...

Space is PVP except...SS or Patrol zones...

Anyway ...THIS IS NOT SPACE...IS JUST AN EMPTY ROOM FOR EU PARTNERS!!!

First of all we need RADARS!!!

After THIS we can talk for PVP IN SPACE!!!

Then MA need to implement new Ships /Modules/Shields ect. and also please A REAL SPACE/SYSTEMS like stories says...

Space: the final frontier...
Cheers...
Faceof is Dynamic...

JohnCapital said:

If I understand, you two alternatives are

1. Import taxes
2. Plant-bound items

Well, I'd love to here your explanation of how those taxes would work. As for planet-bound items, that is problematic. Does that apply to all stacakables, even those that are lootable on other planets? What about items, both (L) and UL?

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Please don't... making it as you didn't understood what I mean.
Start with your country and ask your govern how they do and why, visit some institutes and university and after that go look how other countries solved it lol.

In EU PvP space do not defend local planet economy as big traders use motherships to move big quantity of resources and items without any risk.
Our botany is not at that high lvl to be able to know anything about Plant-bound items
I don't know on what all could apply planet bound items or resources that is on MA and PP to decide but maybe to try an example.
New planet with noob hunters, miners and crafters then come reseller dude and start selling Calypso mining amps.
Ofc those amps were crafted from high skilled crafters, with PB QR 100% and with cheap resources from uber miners and hunters. It don't help local planet and its players at all but destroy local economy.
Having at disposition imported cheap amps instead to use own don't help local hunter, crafter and in very end probably don't help to local miner too - he can sell his ores underpriced to same interplanetary reseller as only choice.
All economy end just in selling and buying from Calypso.
Is not local economy or partially opened economy but fully opened market to Calypso predators without any defense.
But if PP could apply additional fee or tax on that Caly amp miner would still have freedom to chose between amps from local crafters or more expensive one from Calypso. Is not greed, is called defending local economy.
And is not just an amp, is just for example, could be fap, gun, clothes or resource and so on.

Space in no way defend local planet economy so all crap MA said about it have very low value.
PVP lootable space defend pirated and motherships economy only because their business is based on existence of lootable pvp.

So why space is PVP - because MA needed excuse to collect money by selling motherships and invent mode to use them and piss rest of player base because using mothership without having other safe way look like an sort of extortion.

Why it is?
'Cause MA was envious to EVE and sincerely hoped this old n well proven formula would work here too.
Does it?
Ark weapons (not lootable in space) are cheaper on Caly than on Ark... unlike stackables that are lootable. Ofc the blockade has some effect there.
Is it enough to separate markets and stimulate trading on local markets? Doubtful.
Will the complaints about lootable space ever end? Definitely not.

Then again, during all these years, has anybody ever come up with a viable alternative? Nope.
For the better or worse, seems we're stuck with it..


Wanna really crazy idea?
Tax-free Space City floating in the exact center of the Space (the city itself is a non-PvP area ofc). It's auction house has all the normal taxes for the sellers but for all buyers anywhere in EU there's no transport fees.
Yea i know it's a sacrilege in so many ways. Nvm, forget it...

We have space because it was always MA's dream to have space, it's as simple as that They actually admitted that fact is the mothership sales literature. Everything else was an afterthought bolt-on.

A PP is simply a LA owner who has the rights to design their own LA. If they had their own currency then I'd agree with John's space argument. A planet could've then set a transfer value on ped to ark dollars that might have been 1 ped = 1.5 ark dollars.

Even better only equipment that was created on a PP could be used on a PP. What we got was a system that actually encouraged skilled avas to go to other PP's using Caly equipment. On that basis alone it blows out John's justification for space.

People with transport vessels have a vested interest to promote space, same as a PP, same as a LA owner. I wish them success. End of.

Rick

Now I will be helpful to MA.

Let's say we did have currencies for each PP, and that was set at a ratio to the whole EU economy. Then you could log on and say RT currency is better today, I will go play there, as I get more ammo for my money.

If that economy grew too strong, its currency would drop in value, meaning a player might go somewhere else.

That would be interesting people's loyalty to their home planet, it would also likely grow the entire EU economy as players actually felt they had a chance at value.

MA know this of course, they're not stupid, they just wanted to be in total control, and encourage people to stay on Caly if they could. That forced other PP's to create the eco war to bring in players, a worse solution than the currency one. MA let that go because short term it made money.

I could go on, but is it worth it?

Rick

edit: oh yeah Fin, just noticed too 3.5 yrs old.

JohnCapital said:

I see I need to bump this thread up because many folks still don't seem to recognize why things are a certain way.

I'll just leave this important part from the op quoted.


So far the planets aren't fighting too hard to bring in new players, they're just fighting over all us current players. Which is exactly what space PVP was meant to discourage.

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They could also have made teleporters that cost 200 ped. Was a whole lot easier than create space. A 200 ped teleporter would have made sure that beginning players would stay on their own planet while it was still possible to go to other planets. Note how I am not bitching about pvp lootable in this post ( a first for me I guess)

Spawn said:

They could also have made teleporters that cost 200 ped.

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But then, they couldn't create/develop/sell Motherships and all the other space things.

However, unlike others, I don't believe space was made JUST to create/sell those things. I believe those came about as a decision of how to handle the separating of planets for (hopefully) optimal independence plus interaction.

<removed>

JohnCapital said:

Well, I'd love to here your explanation of how those taxes would work.

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MA already admitted that lootable space don't work well.
They reintroduced global auction with partial idea of "those taxes" in form of transport fees.
It work more like export fees and not import taxes.
What i dont like is that those fees will not retun to planet in any form but will be used to finance lootable space and piracy.
How it work - we have jet to see thought longer time period.
At first look it give feeling that if you would IRL import something from another country you would be forced to pay terrorists who live in between two countries.

John, not sure I buy your theory but if you are correct then MA truly doesn't have the business sense to fight their way out of a paper bag.

I personally would like to see space developed to be more than this blank expanse that it is today. More Mobs.. Lootable and Non-Lootable hunting areas.. Space Missions.. Different types of ships.. Space Minning.. Space Battles.. you name it..

But, of course, what do I know.. I'm just one of those dumb-ass customers..

JohnCapital said:

But then, they couldn't create/develop/sell Motherships and all the other space things.

However, unlike others, I don't believe space was made JUST to create/sell those things. I believe those came about as a decision of how to handle the separating of planets for (hopefully) optimal independence plus interaction.

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But when they were launching space no mention of the small ships being able to move between planets was made, people buying the MS assumed wrongly that they would be only ones capable of moving players between planets. They also wouldn't say that it was lootable space, would the MS' have reached the values they did if they had?

Space was made to give a feeling of a universe (solar system tbh) and to keep planets separate and not to be like the old days where moving continents meant clicking another button on the TP but sure as hell they cashed in on it while withholding information from MS buyers.

A true separation of planets would and still does need a separation of the MU on each planet.

Why space is lootable?
What good is emty non-lootable space?
There will be non-lootable space IMO, when there is more space content.
But soon in game development terms is 3-4 years, so we must wait.
And here is video about Arkadia advertising. (some say the are not)

As a privateer owner, I actually wouldn't mind not lootable hunting areas simply because it adds variety in a place where we have little variety. You could even make it like the space stations where you have to land outside of it, and fly out before leaving. Personally, I really just think space needs a lot more variance between what you can do, how you can do it, and how risky it could be. Really a lot of it wouldnt even be that complex to put in. Maybe I'll make a thread on some of my ideas later...

I'm confused as to how limiting transport and trade between planets is beneficial for their economies. It's certainly not the case in the real world, why would it be in the virtual one?

Forget about transporting resources, I tried to make a simple flight from Caly to Cyrene the other day with no loot but I still got shot down twice and both times respawned back at Caly. In the end it wasted about an hour of my time and some fuel and I had to try again another day.

The MS solution would be fine if it weren't for the fact that there's only 2 or 3 active ships as far as I can tell, and they all seem to operate within the same narrow window each day (which is a time that I'm not usually online). No disrespect to the MS owners.

Personally I think MA should provide some public transport. Regular shuttle service between all planets that operated on the hour, so we wouldn't have to depend on a handful of players to provide safe transport for the whole game. It would be an easy money maker for MA, just like real-life public transport they could sell one-time passes, daily passes, annual passes, etc.

syntax said:

I'm confused as to how limiting transport and trade between planets is beneficial for their economies. It's certainly not the case in the real world, why would it be in the virtual one?

Forget about transporting resources, I tried to make a simple flight from Caly to Cyrene the other day with no loot but I still got shot down twice and both times respawned back at Caly. In the end it wasted about an hour of my time and some fuel and I had to try again another day.

The MS solution would be fine if it weren't for the fact that there's only 2 or 3 active ships as far as I can tell, and they all seem to operate within the same narrow window each day (which is a time that I'm not usually online). No disrespect to the MS owners.

Personally I think MA should provide some public transport. Regular shuttle service between all planets that operated on the hour, so we wouldn't have to depend on a handful of players to provide safe transport for the whole game. It would be an easy money maker for MA, just like real-life public transport they could sell one-time passes, daily passes, annual passes, etc.

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You may want to consider that if you usually play during a time were there is not enough customers to run a schedule, it is still possible to order vip flights or to create a team/temporary custom channel to sync with others who would like to travel somewhere and then book a vip flight together. In entropia everything takes either peds or time/effort and creating a team to share costs might be an hour spent more effectively then trying to fly subwarp to another planet during times when pirates are active.

The other solution always is to change obvious flight patterns - its quite easy to leave caly by quad if you dont taker the direct route to your target.

John B Knight said:

You may want to consider that if you usually play during a time were there is not enough customers to run a schedule, it is still possible to order vip flights or to create a team/temporary custom channel to sync with others who would like to travel somewhere and then book a vip flight together. In entropia everything takes either peds or time/effort and creating a team to share costs might be an hour spent more effectively then trying to fly subwarp to another planet during times when pirates are active.

The other solution always is to change obvious flight patterns - its quite easy to leave caly by quad if you dont taker the direct route to your target.

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Both good suggestions, and you're right, I won't make the same mistake again.

From a player's point of view, Space is a place to explore, a way to travel between planets, and a place to find pvp. When the pvp is made unavoidable to the average player, that moves Space out of the realm of "cool pieces of the game" into the realm of "regrettable experiences which discourage play". The most intelligent move here is to make planet hopping without pvp possible; to create pvp zones within Space; and to place potential for reward in those zones to encourage the brave to venture in them.

MindArk underestimates how much people value their time... Trust me there are people playing way less / planet hopping way less because of the time sink of Quad flights. The PvP just makes it even worse.

To make warping worthwhile you need a big bankroll and decent profit, so that ostracizes the beginner community entirely. Unfortunately most planets are completely dry of auction orders (you can still sell, but it means having your PED tied up in slow moving auctions for long periods of time, with no guarantee that it will sell).

Of course we all want the planets to have thriving and independent economies, but the current system is clearly not achieving that, for whatever reason (maybe lack of players/lack of PP advertising).

ZPF said:

Unfortunately most planets are completely dry of auction orders (you can still sell, but it means having your PED tied up in slow moving auctions for long periods of time, with no guarantee that it will sell).

Of course we all want the planets to have thriving and independent economies, but the current system is clearly not achieving that, for whatever reason (maybe lack of players/lack of PP advertising).

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that's why Mindark should really consider removing auction fee for any auction that has no actual bidders, and enable free or cheap re-listing. Also should create some sort of a check box thing so the search in auction can check multiple planets' auctions simultaneously instead of requiring a new search on every planet... shop directory tied with auction would be nice too, especially if it was on global auction, and no listing fee since shop owner paid for their shop/shop keeper in apartment setup already.

Im surprised that space isn't shut down yet. I've said it 100 times before and I see others here say it as well. It only ruins the game for new players. The ones cycling big really don't care if you have to pay 25ped for a warp once a week to travel quick and safe. Or well, I get annoyed by the fee but it's not something that I notice much due to high turnover when I'm first traveling. Space shit doesn't create different economies if just kills working planet auctions. I've been playing on arkadia a bit lately and even there auction sucks. I go to calypso just to list my stuff and then move back to arkadia again. This only makes me waste time it doesn't gain anyone.

mastermesh said:

that's why Mindark should really consider removing auction fee for any auction that has no actual bidders, and enable free or cheap re-listing. Also should create some sort of a check box thing so the search in auction can check multiple planets' auctions simultaneously instead of requiring a new search on every planet... shop directory tied with auction would be nice too, especially if it was on global auction, and no listing fee since shop owner paid for their shop/shop keeper in apartment setup already.

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Please no... There are already "fine people" listing junk with buyouts upto a million ped. Polluting the auction, because there are no costs involved setting that. You can be sure it happens with the start bid as well if kinda the same opportunity arises for that...