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Developer-Notes--2

jcfuller said:
It's just as I've said all along.
Each avatar, mob, and location has a sine wave over time.
The avatar also has modifiers for attributes -> skill,weapon,armor,....

At any given place,time,location,and mob a % of current pool can be calculated.
The only random value I believe is damage but that could also be calculated too.

James
Click to expand...

They basically just said how you do the damage doesn't come in too calculating loot. so this wouldn't be in the equation
 
Sunsout Gunsout said:
And I can't help but feel that MA is trying to wipe the slate clean with people who have lost big. What made them do it?
Click to expand...

I personally think, that a lot things changed recently inside MA. They are way more consumer oriented. I don't say, everything is great, but they made a huge step forward. Remember all the big announcements we got in the past years? It was all big mouth statements... all in line with the NEVERDIE approach:_ any PR is good PR, as long as ppl discuss the game, it cannot be bad.

This was wrong over all they years. The misleading advertising and PR brought a lot players that left the game frustrated. This will hamr us even in years (yes, I believe Entropia exists even in year 2020).

My feeling is, that MindArk today tried to set the expectations right, because this results in way more happy and way more satisfied customers.

Also this dev post will make it a LOT easier for players to have more fun with their PEDs, becuase they will not think "i need to loose a lot to hit big" any more.
 
Thank you MA for releasing this information. While many already suspected the system to be working like this, it's nice to have it official.
Looking forward to more Developer Notes :thumbup:
 
Smoerble said:
Also this dev post will make it a LOT easier for players to have more fun with their PEDs, becuase they will not think "i need to loose a lot to hit big" any more.
Click to expand...

Yes, yes.

"I dropped bomb and got NRF. Holy crap, bad day, I better watch some movie!"
 
This thread is hilarious. :laugh:

Some people need to look up the term "anecdotal evidence".
 
Circle Breaker said:
This thread is hilarious. :laugh:

Some people need to look up the term "anecdotal evidence".
Click to expand...

Before this Dev Post, all anyone had was "anecdotal evidence" when we tried to theorize about anything related to loot. So thanks for pointing out what we all already knew existed. :) Now that there is some real evidence (i.e. the Dev Post) we will move on to now utilizing it in our theories. That is how science works. Before there is real evidence, there is only anecdotal evidence.
 
I love these new developer notes so we can kill some stupid theories going around :)
 
dr3w said:
In case of mining - maybe there is about "overlapping" (BS, actually), dropping probes on same place, or something like that.
Click to expand...

I thought same. Effiency in mining - I bet that the writer haven't ever played the game, because some things don't make sense in his/her post. As matter of hunting, I think MindArk has just seen the price dropping on uber tools and wants to make more demand on eco L tools.
 
Sunsout Gunsout said:
Apparently a lot of people are too busy saying "I told you so" (we will make sure to pat your imaginary avatar on the back) to understand the gravity of a company releasing a statement like this.

In business, the following statement is very common: Company X (a general contractor) has sub-contracted to a large group of sub-contractors. All the sub-contractors provide work for company X, who then receives the money from its clients and pays the sub-contractors. Then one day, company X sends out letters to all the sub-contractors saying "Well, we are sorry, due to our financial situation we are unable to compensate all of the sub-contractors for the work that you have done, so in an effort to settle with you and keep our company in business, we are offering to settle all outstanding unpaid work orders for 30% of the original amount"
In this example, the sub-contractors who are owed 1 million USD will lose 700k. But a sub-contractor owed 50K will only lose 35k. Sub-contrators must either accept the Company X's new rules, or Company X will be "forced to file Bankruptcy". Ok, end of that example.

Fast forward to todays post. Misconception about personal loot pools has stirred something up over in Sweden. When people keep depositing thinking our personal avatars are due for "big one" (whether it was a good decision or not is irrelevant), they were doing so under the assumption that they would get paid something back (just like the sub-contractors in the above example) This assumption was premised on a lack of clarity on MA's part and perhaps stupidity on our part. In an effort to cover their ass, and make sure they don't look like they were intentionally letting the Personal Loot Theory exist and propagate itself, they are now uniformly denying it. By making this statement, they are saying "No matter how much you lost, from now on, everyone has an equal chance in the future to get back X percentage of money you deposit, BUT, to all the people already down 20-50 or 100k USD, you are unfortunately not due anything" This is just like the letter in the above example. Any sub-contractor who did a lot of work for Company X, or any player who lost a LOT of money in this game, are all equally wiped away in either scenario.

The end result is, the sub-contractors in the above example were screwed, and Company X changed its business plan and was able to continue like nothing happened. The people who have deposited big into this game are screwed, and now MA can implement whatever new business plan or agenda it has.

I am NOT complaining...I made a choice to do business with MA, just like the sub-contractors chose to do business with Company X. But when I see company X make statements like that, I get worried, and when I see MA make a statement like this, and attempt to wipe the slate clean regarding people who have lost a LOT, I get worried too. There is a reason this statement was made, and trust me, it ain't cuz we were wondering, and they felt like clearing up our confused little minds. There is a BIGGER reason, be it legal, or personal, that motivated them and THAT is what makes me worry. Quite simply, it seems they want to WALK AWAY with any money that has already been lost to them and start on a new track with a new loot model. Those of us with personal avatars that LOST 40K or even 100K are as likely to get back 40k-100k as any equally skilled avatar who has only deposited 1k has a chance of making that same amount. (which is great from a marketing perspective: "you all have an exactly equal chance to get good stuff or make money")

Bottom line, there was two COMPLETELY different sides to loot theory that they allowed us to think existed, and now there is only one. What made them do it?
Click to expand...

There is 1 slight problem i see with your reasoning above and that before today all we had were hypothesis's made by PLAYERS, some of whom tracked returns and some din't. What i see from the Dev notes is a company leaving there age old culture of keeping secrets and moving to a more transparent system.

As a FORMER believer of personal loot pools and a non believer of eco , it has hit me hard no doubt. I am still not clear how the eco works for mining/crafting ( Example : Is mining in an overmined area considered uneco, Is craft in condition mode vs quantity considered uneco) but at least now i have something to work with and perhaps improve on. Better then previous nothing's i say.

Bottom line is they always allowed all different loot theories to exist, and now they feel that educating the customer base is a step in the right direction. I for one agree.
 
Funny how some people believe this dev note proves Entropia is gambling, when it is actually the other way around :dunce:
 
Divinity said:
There is 1 slight problem i see with your reasoning above and that before today all we had were hypothesis's made by PLAYERS, some of whom tracked returns and some din't. What i see from the Dev notes is a company leaving there age old culture of keeping secrets and moving to a more transparent system.

As a FORMER believer of personal loot pools and a non believer of eco , it has hit me hard no doubt. I am still not clear how the eco works for mining/crafting ( Example : Is mining in an overmined area considered uneco, Is craft in condition mode vs quantity considered uneco) but at least now i have something to work with and perhaps improve on. Better then previous nothing's i say.

Bottom line is they always allowed all different loot theories to exist, and now they feel that educating the customer base is a step in the right direction. I for one agree.
Click to expand...

Yeah you and Smoeble make a good point with this. If it is for these good reasons, then I believe it is a great thing that they are finally being a little more open. But I like to find the sinister in stuff a little too often for my own good :dunno:
 
Nighthawk said:
Funny how some people believe this dev note proves Entropia is gambling, when it is actually the other way around :dunce:
Click to expand...

Care to explain your reasoning? I for one, see it as a gambling now. Yes I had doubt about it in the past, but certain experiences turned my view, but how exactly you think it's less gambling without personal loot pool?
 
Sunsout Gunsout said:
Before this Dev Post, all anyone had was "anecdotal evidence" when we tried to theorize about anything related to loot. So thanks for pointing out what we all already knew existed. :) Now that there is some real evidence (i.e. the Dev Post) we will move on to now utilizing it in our theories. That is how science works. Before there is real evidence, there is only anecdotal evidence.
Click to expand...


Uh, you misunderstand what I was trying to say. If you read some of the entries in this thread you'll notice that some people are still using anecdotal evidence to contradict the statement by MA. Being a scientist, I'm well-versed in the scientific method. There is a distinct difference between coming up with a hypothesis based on that you see and experience (which you modify when new evidence comes into play) and blindly believing in anecdotal evidence.
 
Circle Breaker said:
Uh, you misunderstand what I was trying to say. If you read some of the entries in this thread you'll notice that some people are still using anecdotal evidence to contradict the statement by MA. Being a scientist, I'm well-versed in the scientific method. There is a distinct difference between coming up with a hypothesis based on that you see and experience (which you modify when new evidence comes in to play) and blindly believing in anecdotal evidence.
Click to expand...

You're a poor scientist, if you tend to believe authority even if your own experience doesn't correlate at all with it.
 
OK i've questions!!

Clearly the Dev note says (i believe in their comment going forward) there is no personal loot pool....


But I guess there is a collective loot pool..... and to keep money flowing ingame the can't give back 100% of the peds we buy from MA...


So MA must have a policy to give back certain % back to our collective loot pool.

So my questions are:

1. is there any collective loot pool?

2 ...and if one exists how is MA reimbursing peds to the collective loot poo?

3. Finally, if there is no such collective loot pool what strategies MA has to create a ped sinking black hole too keep money flowing?
 
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Pyhä Antero said:
You're a poor scientist, if you tend to believe authority even if your own experience doesn't correlate at all with it.
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What? I've not said anything about what my own experience has led me to believe in this matter, nor have I said that I blindly believe in the statement by MA. A good scientist questions everything that is not supported by sufficient evidence. However, I find it unlikely that MA would blatantly lie about this.
 
Infinity01 said:
OK i've questions!!

Clearly the Dev note says (i believe in their comment going forward) there is no personal loot pool....


But I guess there is a collective loot pool..... and to keep money flowing ingame the can't give back 100% of the peds we buy from MA...


So my question is MA must have a policy to give back certain % back to our collective loot pool.

So my question is is there any collective loot pool. and if one exists how is MA reimbursing peds to the collective loot poo? and if there is no such collective loot pool what strategies MA has to create a ped sinking black hole too keep money flowing?
Click to expand...

I think there is no lootpool at all. Mindark just keeps a supply of cash on hand which they supply the loots as they happen. Simplest way, really. And they adjust the loot equations as necessary to give mindark a positive cash flow.
 
I believe my avatar pulls from a loot puddle.


Who can resist a nice puddle : )





Bones
 
Uvas said:
I think there is no lootpool at all. Mindark just keeps a supply of cash on hand which they supply the loots as they happen. Simplest way, really. And they adjust the loot equations as necessary to give mindark a positive cash flow.
Click to expand...

And what should we call this... system? Loot pool, maybe? And when every profession has a separate loot pool as they said on the 1st notes your lovely idea turns out to be just about same as a loot pool.
 
Teiwaz Storm said:
Isn't this the same?
Using non maxed weapons is effectively decreasing dpp.
Correct me if I'm wrong...
Click to expand...

Yes, this is true, however we have know way of knowing whether the reduced returns are because of lower dpp, or because of a factor like hit ability (which also lowers your dpp, but we cannot assume a causal relationship between the two).

For example, MA may have set: average loot = 90% * HA/10.

Personally, yes, I think it is because not being maxed lowers your dpp. That's the simplest answer.

For example: Average loot = 90% of Ped value of total damage done (where this is a standard amount per hitpoint defined by MA.)

In order to confirm this though somebody would have to compare results using two maxed weapons with different eco values over a long (and I mean really long) time.
 
Svarog said:
Don't be sad, because this thread clearly displays that zealots of one religion won't stop believing even after getting a kick in the butt from a God of another religion, so the lootpool will continue to flourish :cool:
Click to expand...

Assuming MA is taking 10% of our decay for themselves, there was an average return of 90% for the whole playerbase. (This percentage is a pure assumption, just for the discussion, it could as well be a fixed amount...)

Until today, this average 90% was spread from people having 80% to those having 100%. The difference was mainly due to hunting tactics and gear choice, dicted by loot theories and personal habits, etc...

The hunters with 100% return could only survive because the ones having 80% were depositing and burning their PEDs in the hope of their "payback".


Now, if everyone follow the same hunting rules (and "eco" as discussed in this forum is only a portion), then more avatars will reach the same level. As MA will keep on taking their part, delivering this information may actually level the return of all hunters, maybe the range will reduce to 85% - 95%.

The heavy depositors will reduce their losses, stop crying on forums about their bad return and stop quitting. Good for MA.
The non depositors will have to deposit a little now. Good for MA too. (Or to adapt and find other new ways to stay more eco.)
 
Artrat said:
Yes, this is true, however we have know way of knowing whether the reduced returns are because of lower dpp, or because of a factor like hit ability (which also lowers your dpp, but we cannot assume a causal relationship between the two).

For example, MA may have set: average loot = 90% * HA/10.

Personally, yes, I think it is because not being maxed lowers your dpp. That's the simplest answer.

For example: Average loot = 90% of Ped value of total damage done (where this is a standard amount per hitpoint defined by MA.)

In order to confirm this though somebody would have to compare results using two maxed weapons with different eco values over a long (and I mean really long) time.
Click to expand...


By the way, anyone else sees the irony on that there's not personal loot pool, but you get better return if you play efficiently (whatever that means... non-eco or eco, they forgot to mention)
 
funny to see a post like this one, after all those support cases with the answer "we can´t discuss game mechanics"

I´m not sure if its right to post this information after so long time.

People have made their own religious theories about this. It may be such a chock for them that they quit :laugh:
 
Infinity01 said:
OK i've questions!!

Clearly the Dev note says (i believe in their comment going forward) there is no personal loot pool....


But I guess there is a collective loot pool..... and to keep money flowing ingame the can't give back 100% of the peds we buy from MA...


So MA must have a policy to give back certain % back to our collective loot pool.

So my questions are:

1. is there any collective loot pool?

2 ...and if one exists how is MA reimbursing peds to the collective loot poo?

3. Finally, if there is no such collective loot pool what strategies MA has to create a ped sinking black hole too keep money flowing?
Click to expand...

Fairly sure decay is what comes out.
Maybe auction fees.
 
"People allow misconception and confusion to exist ONLY when it is beneficial to them, so the ONLY reason to clarify misconception and confusion is if by doing so, it would benefit them even more."

I just came up with that as I was taking a ...going to the bathroom, and I think it applies here. :grouphug:
 
I saw this thread start just a few hours ago - growing like wildfire....

okaaaaay, how to approach this news?
Well, assuming it is true now doesn't mean it was automatically true in the past too = they may have changed it recently!

I know about statistics and randomness etc, but also about sine waves and Fourier transforms. Looking at my results in the game I have felt that my avatar's returns have been closest to a 'biorhythm' set of waves of different wavelengths.

Saying there is no personal loot pool does not mean that there are no personal, mob, profession and loot type waves/cycles. Any of these could be set to have certain frequencies and amplitudes and loots are generated live under consideration of these.

This means that my lows have usually been balanced by highs fairly 'close' in time, but could just be my avatar floating on the waves as they roll past. If I have a bad run and don't find the counterpart good time, then I consider I have lost 'that' chance as the waves roll on and on in new combinations.

So, maybe this 'theory' will now start to fill out :)
Is it gambling? Well, yes and no. In roulette I can also choose what level of risk to take per turn, but nothing tips the wheel. With EU I feel I can feel the heartbeat sometimes, however. I once played roulette on a cross-channel ferry in a storm, maybe that is the closet I have come to partial non-randomness in a seemingly random environment ;)?
 
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