mining data 2012

FallenAngel

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Fallen Yours Angel
due to some discussion generated by MA's developer notes nr.3 i have offered to track and make public my raw mining data in a format that allows analysis.
At the moment im lvl 30 prospector, lvl 28 surveyor, lvl 14 treasure hunter.
I'm using lvl5 amps at all times and unless otherwise stated the tk220 finder and a borrowed ME/05 SGA excavator.
I recently hit my first tower and i will update this post with my TT returns once i have finished my latest run for my log in the mining section.
 
raw data test

Code:
raw data!

planet=rocktropia
finder=tk220 (maxed)
amp=lvl5
extractor=ME/05 SGA (borrowed)
tax=0%

o NRF
e 	 54.6m	TT=	  10.0
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF 
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e	 46.9m	TT=	   2.88
o	 47.9m	TT=	   3.90
e	 ??.?m	TT=	   3.0
e REBOMB NRF
o	 53.6m	TT=	   7.15
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e	 12.6m	TT=	   2.84
e rebomb NRF
o NRF
e	 41.7m	TT=	   6.9
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o	 24.9m	TT=	   3.9
e NRF
o rebomb NRF
o NRF
e	 46.9m	TT=	   8.7
o NRF
e	 20.7m	TT=	  10.2
e rebomb NRF 
o NRF
e	 37.8m	TT=	   8.1
o NRF
e NRF
o	 43.6m	TT=	   3.25
o	 30.0m	TT=	 101.4
o	 52.5m	TT=	   3.9
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e	  6.4m	TT=	   6.9
e rebomb NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o	 ??.?m	TT=	  11.7
e	 ??.?m	TT=	   8.48
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e	 ??.?m	TT=	   9.72
o NRF
e	 ??.?m	TT=	   7.0
e rebomb ??.?m	TT=	   3.3
o	 ??.?m	TT=	  11.4
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e	 ??.?m	TT=	   9.9
o NRF
e	 12.4m	TT=	   9.12
e rebomb NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e	 33.0m	TT=	   3.31
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e	 52.8m	TT=	   7.2
o NRF
en	 50.0m	TT=	   3.0
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e	 ??.?	TT=	   6.3
o	 43.3m	TT=	   3.0
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o	  9.1M	TT=	   3.25
o rebomb NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o	 47.9m	TT=	  12.35
e	 ??.?m 	TT=	   9.56
o	 13.7m	TT=	   3.25
o rebomb NRF 
e	 ??.?m	TT=	 115.5
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e	 23.8m TT=	   2.85
e rebomb 47.8m TT=	   6.00
o	 39.0m TT=	  11.05
e NRF
o	 53.2m TT=	   3.25
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF
o NRF
e NRF

end test!

tt out=420.98 (finder decay/probes/amps)
tt in=443.51
hitrate +/- 23.84%

if anyone sees a problem with the raw data collection now is the time to mention it, i will start presenting the data in the way Falkao suggested as well as soon as i know how he wishes me to account for the double dropping of ores and ematter. Its not always possible for me to get the range of the find as double dropping and unfriendly mobs sometimes prevent this. :p
 
i don't understand what you want to prove here?

Hasn't my Logs proven that this Game has a model that works?
well for mining anyways...
 
i don't understand what you want to prove here?

Hasn't my Logs proven that this Game has a model that works?
well for mining anyways...

Which model exactly has your logs proven?
 
that it is possible to profit?
is that not the main theme of people's intentions?

i even Stream to give away potential information or locations...
 
that it is possible to profit?
is that not the main theme of people's intentions?

i even Stream to give away potential information or locations...

Surprisingly, this is not about profit, but a follow-up thread on what has been discussed in the dev notes #3 thread - basically something i claimed here:

Let's say you do 100 mining runs, all with enough bombs to go on until you hit a global.

And record the return all the time.
The return rate pretty quickly converges to 2/3rd

So far a random system can produce these results.


Now you hit a global
And the global size EXACTLY matches the missing amount of PEDs thats needed bring you to 90%.

And you get the same pattern 98 out of 100 times....

NO random system is able to produce THAT pattern.
Only a loot system with a memory is able to produce that.

Only that he's doing it wrong...
 
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Code:
.... Its not always possible for me to get the range of the find as double dropping and unfriendly mobs sometimes prevent this. :P[/QUOTE]


First of all, thx for sharing your data :)

As for the range of the find: It's not necessary to record it. Only the range of the "finder" is needed in the case you do track NRF.
 
i don't understand what you want to prove here?

Hasn't my Logs proven that this Game has a model that works?
well for mining anyways...

hello

i took a liberty of writing down your bigger loots. If anybody is interested that might be the right thread.

-loots denominated to unamped ore (1ped)
-only 200 and higher after denomination
-1 or 2 loots from cnd might be missing (didn't know what amp or not)
-might be shifts in position (bigger toward an end)
-it is rather sketch and not that exact in number of bombs and peds but i was just curious and in hurry:silly2:

Code:
bomb	amount
12000	400
14500	260
34900	1500
46000	400
55400	280
68900	500
69700	250
72200	200
74200	250
83575	860
92515	250
109515	250
110325	280
112475	250
135975	250
146475	280
151975	1300
154975	200
159375	260
164875	330
165375	200
177175	1400
177735	800
184335	270
187135	270
190335	250
207635	276
222235	830
223735	450
225235	400
226735	280
240135	280
244135	270
246135	1500
250135	1250
254995	250
268995	250
276595	9000
 
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that it is possible to profit?
is that not the main theme of people's intentions?

i even Stream to give away potential information or locations...

well your logs certainly were one of many things that inspired me to start mining seriously, and one of the things that tempted me to see if i could handle level 5 amps :)
i think the point of the data is the argument you see on the forum in different places that returns have changed, that the loot system has changed, that there used to be a personal loot pool but it was taken away, and how Falkao's earlier analysis of mining loot was said to be outdated by some. by presenting some recent raw mining data maybe some of this can be put to rest. This purely about TT returns and not about the possibility to profit taking markup into account.
 
that it is possible to profit?
is that not the main theme of people's intentions?

i even Stream to give away potential information or locations...

I wasn't under impression that anyone was even questioning the profit part. Discussion is about the loot system model and tt returns. Profit is another matter entirely.

In a way, mining is much simpler system than hunting or crafting. There is no eco differences (assuming one doesn;t do stupid things like using unmaxed finders or droping all bombs in 1 place), disregarding the MU on amps, all tt input is equal. So, aside from managing markups, tt return is one the most interesting questions in mining. And the system behind it, If MA is to believed that there is no personal lootpool or memory built into system is what's under question.
 
Just wanted to let everyone know that i dissociate myself from this study - my prerequisites are not met, not even half of them - if you want to reproduce results, you gotta stick to every goddamn detail. Even if it may look like pure superstition to you (because you cannot know what's the point behind it and whether it's important for the outcome or not).
 
Just wanted to let everyone know that i dissociate myself from this study - my prerequisites are not met, not even half of them - if you want to reproduce results, you gotta stick to every goddamn detail. Even if it may look like pure superstition to you (because you cannot know what's the point behind it and whether it's important for the outcome or not).

Well if you want to put it like this in public, i took the time to read your prerequisites, i think i approached them with respect and gave you detailed reasons why your prerequisites where impractical for me, and why i thought that if MA designed the system so that one could only get 90% TT return in this way it would be impossible for most people to achieve 90% TT return ever. it would not be in their own best interests to design a system in which following your "pure superstitions", as you put it so well, was the only way to achieve stable returns long term. it would slow entropia universe to a crawl, what sense does that make?
as i said in private i may not know what the point behind it is but where i disagreed i certainly have the published TT returns in my log on this forum to prove that its not important for my outcome.
and i dont think you can argue that there is something wrong with my logged TT returns? :)

at least i am publishing raw data, in the open, so you or anyone can make of it what you want.
no secret recipe just drop lots of probes. :)
 
To be honest there was never any 'personal loot pool' But there is a Setting on the Avatar...
A pool would indicate everything you did in game would be 'added' up ... well it's how you use your avatar in situations that would decide if you land yourself on 80% tt or 90% tt or the fact on how much % on mu you pay on items etc...

I see it more as a setting anyways..

i supose that's why rubberbanding occurs?
 
First of all, thx for sharing your data :)

As for the range of the find: It's not necessary to record it. Only the range of the "finder" is needed in the case you do track NRF.
ok, sorry i can be quite slow with my comprehension, i do not see the connection between finder range and anything else so was struggling with what to log and why i was logging it, as i dont mine FOMA/Hell, where range would indicate the reason for lowered hitrate, the only use i see for finder range is not overlapping drops. :)

To be honest there was never any 'personal loot pool' But there is a Setting on the Avatar...
A pool would indicate everything you did in game would be 'added' up ... well it's how you use your avatar in situations that would decide if you land yourself on 80% tt or 90% tt or the fact on how much % on mu you pay on items etc...

I see it more as a setting anyways..

i supose that's why rubberbanding occurs?

i hate to admit it, as someone who does not believe in personal loot pools, but with all the looting i have done over the years i do perceive strange results "in the field", but my anecdotes are not "scientific proof". The main reason i dont believe in personal loot pools is that to me it only looks like the system attempts at certain points to bring you back to a reasonable return, it does not look to me that there is a guarantee, or there would not be any complaints and i would not of had extended periods of bad returns ;)

i guess i will just log some more and hope better minds than mine can say something meaningful :p
 
Firts of all everyone needs to get there head away from the word pool.... IF a pool was indicated or WAS TRUE then doing anything in this game would have a end result aka dropping a bomb in one spot or shooting ammo in the air... But it's not TRUE...

You Only Gain a % Gain by PLaying the actually game and being involved....
Dead ped = dead ped...

live ped = setting
 
due to some discussion generated by MA's developer notes nr.3 i have offered to track and make public my raw mining data in a format that allows analysis.
...

In the mentioned thread there was a discussion about loot and if it was triggered from a system that has memory or not and if it is related to the existence of a “personal loot pool”.

I have posted the following graph over there.
e75_dropstillglobal_799120.jpg


It shows the inverse of the cumulative distribution function (survivor or survival function) for the number of drops you do need till you hit a global (defined as loot >= 50 PED for ore and >=25 PED for enmatter). The sample consisted of 7360 consecutive amp 4 enmatter probe drops containing 85 globals and was delivered by Steffel back in 2008/2009.

What does the graph depict?

Let’s take the given value at 10 drops. It is roughly 90% which tells us that it is very probable that a globals comes after 10 drops and not before. The given probability of 90% also implies that there is a 10% chance to get one within 10 drops.
The median (prob of 50%) is at about 60 drops. This tells us that half of the globals will come after and half before 60 drops. At 237 drops the survival function is below 5% indicating that only 5% of the globals do come after this number of drops.

The shape of the distribution is a well known one and it is called exponential distribution. It can be used to model waiting times till events that are independent from each other do occur, quite like as we do have with our drops and globals.

The mean of the fitted exponential distribution is 86, hence in mean you have to wait 86 drops for a global. The median of an exp.dist. is the mean*ln(2) = 60. This was the value already identified from the survival function.

The inverse of the mean = 1/86 = 1.16% is the relative frequency of the event. The sample had 85 globals out of 7360 drops which corresponds to 1.15%. Hence we can conclude that the fit is adequate to assume that the waiting time (drops) for a global do follow an exponential distribution.

Now to the memory part.

As mentioned before, the exp.distribution models independent events. For some freq.distributions this is property is also called memorylessness and independence implies that there is no memory in the system.

The observed globals are from a series of consecutive drops. As their waiting time distribution follows a known random process that assumes “memorylessness” we have to conclude that the triggered globals do come from a system that has no memory. This also implies that there was no "personal loot pool" for the avatar Steffel back in 2008/2009.

Steffels data is several years old and it is always good to have a recent dataset. Therefore FallenAngel’s efforts are very welcome.

P.S: Please note that this is enmatter amped data and hence given times are only valid for this setup. For unamped mining the global of 25 PED would correspond to a 6 (class 3) or 15-20 Pedder (class 4). For ore you can double the values.
 
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I need to kill my lazyness, and ask Ido to combine my 79k claims logged in LBML with my drops. Most problem - there is unamped, amped 5-7-8 drops, and so on - and LBML doesn't log amps. But I can put amps manually, since I remember all my periods, and also can distinct 5-7-8 amps by global-hof patterns, it's easy. Ah, also only claimsizes, and not TT values.

Myself I can currently extract just claims. I think, it's useless without drops.
 
I need to kill my lazyness, and ask Ido to combine my 79k claims logged in LBML with my drops. Most problem - there is unamped, amped 5-7-8 drops, and so on - and LBML doesn't log amps. But I can put amps manually, since I remember all my periods, and also can distinct 5-7-8 amps by global-hof patterns, it's easy. Ah, also only claimsizes, and not TT values.

Myself I can currently extract just claims. I think, it's useless without drops.

mining data of epic proportions, almost the war and peace of mining :)
i didnt realise you can only export the claims from LBML to cvs and not the nrf's.
 
The sample consisted of 7360 consecutive amp 4 enmatter probe drops containing 85 globals and was delivered by Steffel back in 2008/2009.

i have about 3000 consecutive drops with the lvl5 amp now, would you consider this enough to be a representative sample? I am still collecting and need to make the data presentable but im reaching the point where i am beginning to wonder how much is enough. :)
 
Firts of all everyone needs to get there head away from the word pool.... IF a pool was indicated or WAS TRUE then doing anything in this game would have a end result aka dropping a bomb in one spot or shooting ammo in the air... But it's not TRUE...

You Only Gain a % Gain by PLaying the actually game and being involved....
Dead ped = dead ped...

live ped = setting

Well, devs themselves use this term. So maybe you should take it up with them ;)

Independent Lootpools - One concern that we see very often on community forums, especially when a big All Time High is achieved, is that one profession is unfairly “financing” a huge loot in another profession. This misconception often results in one group of participants (i.e. hunters) becoming upset or frustrated that their activity is being used to fund the rewards given to another group of participants (i.e. miners). To hopefully dispel this misconception, we would like to inform participants that the loot pools for each main profession (hunting, mining and manufacturing) are completely independent of one another, and that a large loot in one profession has absolutely no impact on potential loots in any of the other professions.
 
i have about 3000 consecutive drops with the lvl5 amp now, would you consider this enough to be a representative sample? I am still collecting and need to make the data presentable but im reaching the point where i am beginning to wonder how much is enough. :)

should be about 800 finds then which could be worth a try.
 
Hi,

There are no such thing as perosnal loot pools...

http://www.entropiauniverse.com/bulletin/buzz/


Just to clear that one up :)

Sasha

Thank you for clearing that one up sasha :)
You may have missed the reaction to that on the forum, rage and disbelief were some of the more interesting emotions that announcement bought with it. :p
i was just foolish enough to say if you want data to "prove" it ill collect some.
 
could be worth a try.

hmm, that looks like statistician code for "they dont make research assistants like they used to" and "do these people not understand what data is, i need more data" :D
i will keep collecting then, and yes it is about 800 claims atm.
 
hmm, that looks like statistician code for "they dont make research assistants like they used to" and "do these people not understand what data is, i need more data" :D
i will keep collecting then, and yes it is about 800 claims atm.

;). Those claims are sufficient to check the loot distribution. For the waiting time analysis till a global I might need some more because there are only about 10 atm (95% CI 8-13 globals).
 
;). Those claims are sufficient to check the loot distribution. For the waiting time analysis till a global I might need some more because there are only about 10 atm (95% CI 8-13 globals).

i havent counted them up and taken account for ore/enmatter/amps but tracker shows 14 globals so your confidence doesnt look misplaced. I would hate to have done all this logging for it not to be sufficient so i will keep going. :)
 
I now have about 6000 consecutive drops recorded, if anyone else has data they wish to share or is willing to collect data it would be very helpful! until you start noting down every drop you do you dont realise how much fun you had been missing out on! :p
 
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Way to go!

I now have about 6000 consecutive drops recorded, if anyone else has data they wish to share or is willing to collect data it would be very helpful! until you start noting down every drop you do you dont realise how much fun you had been missing out on! :p

Top class effort, thank you :)
 
;). Those claims are sufficient to check the loot distribution. For the waiting time analysis till a global I might need some more because there are only about 10 atm (95% CI 8-13 globals).

you got mail :)
just in time for a fun weekend of statistical analysis :p
 
you got mail :)
just in time for a fun weekend of statistical analysis :p

thx, Fallen I've got the file and it is raining here. So I most probably will get the time for doing the analysis ;)

I'll let you know.
 
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