Project Entropia: what's in a name?

I hear a lot of people stating (incorrectly) that MA gets their profit from repairs (they don't, it's from the decay 1 2). Reading that in a thread today again got me thinking that i've been wanting to share the "inside joke" behind the name and indeed the design of PE for those who might not have the background to "get it". The name of the "game" describes exactly what the profit model is. Entropy is the unavoidably (IRL) increasing disorder of the universe due to every reaction and event that happens. You might call it the "running down" or "decay" of the universe. The-game-formerly-known-as-Project -Entropia is a project to see if a business model based on "decay" in a virtual universe can succeed! MA takes out of the game what amounts to the increase in entropy (in the form of decay).

Here's something eerie: the scientific discipline known as thermodynamics is the study of energy and heat and entropy (among many other things, yes) and the rules that govern their exchange. It has three fundamental laws which can be used to evaluate the possibility of some gadget or process working. (For example, the laws show that a "perpetual motion" device producing energy is impossible IRL, or getting heat to flow "uphill" to cool something relative to the surroundings without putting in energy.) The kicker though is this--it's a long-time joke that the laws can be summarized surprisingly accurately as:

1) You can't get ahead
2) You can't break even
and
3) You must play the game

I'd say project entropia is a complete success in all ways. Perhaps that's why they've changed the name. However i think Project Entropia is still the perfect name for the project and will always call it that, even though "Entropia Universe" is taking the play on words even further i suppose.

Now back to your addiction creating entropy in MA's project...

this is actually good!

what always bothers me is this:
Entopia is the perfect world, but in Project Entropia (sounds almost like entopia) or even Entropia Universe (the project fell away, telling me that entopia has been reached) if it was so pefect, why do so many people leave the game?

lol i got lost halfway doer but i get what your saying i think
true what your saying but who's to say that the prject is over tand the bigger money taking process is gonna take part in EU?

This is what I noticed as soon as I started playing the game : ) I think it is the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics; the universe of 'order' is inevitably dissapating into random uniform mush, not a pleasant thought. Any temporary states of order we create use up and dissapate more energy than the total order created.

I've used the argument in many a 'whine' converation in-game

Life itself, and how it has formed - according to some, is the opposite of entropy, 'negentropy'. This is sometimes used in rather silly arguments by creationists at some of the forums I stalk, when they are trying to disprove evolution theory.

Anyway enough, thats not for around here!

Good luck all in creating your temporary order spots, may they be large and HOFlike

Edain

Doer said:

I hear a lot of people stating (incorrectly) that MA gets their profit from repairs (they don't, it's from the decay).

Click to expand...

Don't judge people hard, for many it does not matter which one
it is, I guess you admit these two are very close. (I don't know
actually which one it could be...) And as the rules of common
conversational dialect dictate, two things close to each other can
sometimes substitute each other. We make the difference only
when it matters, and in this case it does not. And your grandma
may not like to hear about "decay", "repairs" sounds much more
positive word. And being positive affects your health. And
you need to buy less pills, thus saving more money for this game.

Entropy as a matehematical concept could have been used in
the design of this game, if a part of the game dynamics have been
made adaptive. Adaptiveness has to be partial, so that
Man From Above can fiddle with parameters when needed.

it all sounds too scientific to understand, but the sum. helps alot explains why i can't stop playing lol...

Doer said:

I hear a lot of people stating (incorrectly) that MA gets their profit from repairs (they don't, it's from the decay).

Click to expand...

dude, decay=repairs=decay. when they actually take the money out of the economy is acedemic. when they take it from my ped card is through repairs.

They can change the name to whatever they want, for me it is and will still Project Entropia. Since they claim, not being a Mmog anymore but a virtual parallel reality universe its more a project than ever bevore.

Do i need Labour in my Sparetime in a 2. universe, i really want this ?
When it stop being a game, being entertaining, when it become a Buissnes and im not enjoying my free time but working on my virtual alter ego ?
Its a bit scary what Project entropia is going to become and its joy and pain together.

Doer,

You may find a book by Brian Greene, "The Fabric of the Cosmos" interesting... theoretical physics type stuff...

Man, I love thermo... takes me back to my college days

-Randy T

aridash said:

dude, decay=repairs=decay. when they actually take the money out of the economy is acedemic. when they take it from my ped card is through repairs.

Click to expand...

This is the flippancy that confuses people. Clearly MA takes the decay, not the repair. Take for example limited items. Where does MA get their cut? You might say when they're manufactured, but then what about looted limiteds? No, there's a semantic difference between decay and repair. I understand what you're saying Kapok, and ultimately one doesn't need to know any of this to enjoy the game. I just think those people who want to understand would be confused less often about the flow of things if they understood the basis of the project and where the drain to the loot pool lies.

Thanks for your comments everyone. Randy, i'd like to read that book...got a lot of books i'd like to read someday.

And it still says when one on your FL join... like..

Mr. "BUSH" DaVinci has joined/left Project-Entropia

Doer said:

This is the flippancy that confuses people. Clearly MA takes the decay, not the repair. Take for example limited items. Where does MA get their cut? You might say when they're manufactured, but then what about looted limiteds?

Click to expand...

Thats a very good point about L items.

However think of it the other way. i land at PA and meet some nice helpful chap dishing out free guns. I sweat a bit for my ammo and use up say a ped worth of decay on the weapon before TTing it. How has MA earnt anything from me?

Back to L items, i reckon they takes there cut up front, since crafters use residue to max the TT value and residue = 1pec a unit. This does not hold for the Korss pistol of couse, but then i dont understand why they've introduced a L loot anyway.

aridash said:

dude, decay=repairs=decay. when they actually take the money out of the economy is acedemic. when they take it from my ped card is through repairs.

Click to expand...

My understanding is that they take money even for the (L) items when they are being used up. And since you dont repair those, decay is the more accurate word.

Snipe said:

this is actually good!

what always bothers me is this:
Entopia is the perfect world, but in Project Entropia (sounds almost like entopia) or even Entropia Universe (the project fell away, telling me that entopia has been reached) if it was so pefect, why do so many people leave the game?

Click to expand...

actually... i'm not completely certain about this...
entopia is the name of some business somewhere

UTOPIA, however, is the perfect world.

Joser said:

UTOPIA, however, is the perfect world.

Click to expand...

Dang, you beat me to it. Usually I love being the besserwisser. +Rep

We always had a running joke where I live. New Mexico is called "The land of Enchantment" we always called it "The land of Entrapment" its funny I am now part of Entropia Universe (formally known as Project Entropia) and the same joke still applies "Entrapia Universe" lol.

A question was asked in an earlier post that if that person spends 1 ped of decay how is MA making any money off them? Well it may not seem like alot but if you multiply that many times over it starts to add up. I have been here for a while and I have noticed MA making it much more easier for new people to start playing EU than when I started. This will up the head count increase the magnitude of decay (or entropy) plus a few will have loftier goals and want to move up in weapons and equipment which equals more decay more decay and more decay which equals more money for MA. I always said MA would make more money off alot of people playing with moderately decaying items than a few people playing with high decaying items. LAs are so popular from their cumulative effect I am sure LA owners make more money off mobs that loot 3-4 peds continously than one ATH type loot. Pretty much all of the professions are geared towards entropy (if I understand the meaning correctly from prior posts) even in crafting which produces the items which will eventually decay if used and use resources mined up with tools that decay. Its all tied together in cycles. Sorry to hijack the thread a little just wanted to show EU in the "Big picture" and not the microcosom of individual avies.

I like Entropia its a decent name and the definition relates clearly to the core of this game (errr universe)

Could someone please clarify what denotes 'decay' in game?

Is it one or all of the following:

1. Using a weapon / tool / etc., repairing it
2. Using ammo (it gets converted into loot and items with loss for inefficiency)
3. Using material in crafting (they get converted into an item + residue with some loss (roughly 40%)
4. Any other thing I've somehow forgot ...

Photon said:

Could someone please clarify what denotes 'decay' in game?

Is it one or all of the following:

1. Using a weapon / tool / etc., repairing it
2. Using ammo (it gets converted into loot and items with loss for inefficiency)
3. Using material in crafting (they get converted into an item + residue with some loss (roughly 40%)
4. Any other thing I've somehow forgot ...

Click to expand...

I think it can be defined as making something decrease in TT value, therefore it would be 1. Note that decay is different from repairs as mentioned earlier

Does anyone know if MindArk is a public company? Can anyone get their hands on the financial statements? That will tell you 100% for sure where the income comes from. My feeling is that they declare 100% of deposits as income. In that case they make much much more than just decay. Their expenses would be credit card fees from banks, servers and server farm and programmers (maybe withdrawls from players?). A very high profit business if you ask me.

This brings on another question. If they do declare all deposits as income then there is no real virtual economy because there is nothing backing up the currency. If it were a real deposit then there would be money on reserve held to pay everyone in the economy if we all cashed out at the same time. Just like a casino is requred to have cash on hand to cover all chips in play and on the tables.

thewebbie said:

Does anyone know if MindArk is a public company? Can anyone get their hands on the financial statements? That will tell you 100% for sure where the income comes from. My feeling is that they declare 100% of deposits as income. In that case they make much much more than just decay. Their expenses would be credit card fees from banks, servers and server farm and programmers (maybe withdrawls from players?). A very high profit business if you ask me.

This brings on another question. If they do declare all deposits as income then there is no real virtual economy because there is nothing backing up the currency. If it were a real deposit then there would be money on reserve held to pay everyone in the economy if we all cashed out at the same time. Just like a casino is requred to have cash on hand to cover all chips in play and on the tables.

Click to expand...

try this

http://www.mindark.com/docs/reports/MindArk_AR_ENGx.pdf

thewebbie said:

Does anyone know if MindArk is a public company? Can anyone get their hands on the financial statements? That will tell you 100% for sure where the income comes from. My feeling is that they declare 100% of deposits as income. In that case they make much much more than just decay. Their expenses would be credit card fees from banks, servers and server farm and programmers (maybe withdrawls from players?). A very high profit business if you ask me.

This brings on another question. If they do declare all deposits as income then there is no real virtual economy because there is nothing backing up the currency. If it were a real deposit then there would be money on reserve held to pay everyone in the economy if we all cashed out at the same time. Just like a casino is requred to have cash on hand to cover all chips in play and on the tables.

Click to expand...

1st) There is a HUGE difference between money that is deposited, and the value of avatars. The value of an avatar in the eye of MA is only the TT value. Thats all they need to pay you when you cash out.

2nd) I doubt MA has enough money by hand to cash out everone at once. But since it would mean bankruptcy of MA anyway, it would be useless for MA to have that money sitting on an account.

Right, the financial statement publicly provided by MA was linked to a couple posts back.

I strongly suggest everyone who thinks "they make their money from decay" give it a read.

The withdrawls we make are in that financial statement, just as are the deposits we make, their expenses, and their profit.

All statements made by MA that they profit from 'decay' are outright lies, unless you take 'profit' to mean something else than the excess of revenues over outlays in a given period of time.

Here's the link again in case you missed it:

http://www.mindark.com/docs/reports/MindArk_AR_ENGx.pdf

Amanita said:

Right, the financial statement publicly provided by MA was linked to a couple posts back.

I strongly suggest everyone who thinks "they make their money from decay" give it a read.

The withdrawls we make are in that financial statement, just as are the deposits we make, their expenses, and their profit.

All statements made by MA that they profit from 'decay' are outright lies, unless you take 'profit' to mean something else than the excess of revenues over outlays in a given period of time.

Here's the link again in case you missed it:

http://www.mindark.com/docs/reports/MindArk_AR_ENGx.pdf

Click to expand...

I think you missunderstand the concept "we take money from decay". It means that the way money leaves the EU economy and becomes Mindarks, is through decay. It can very well be that the amount of deposits lies pretty close to the total earnings from decay.

So it are no lies, it just means that they dont have all money that is ever deposited sitting on a bankaccount, waiting for an item to decay so they can claim it. Instead they have invested in the companies future. When looking from a bussiness point of view, it doesnt realy matter where the money comes from. When a companey has money on the account it usually gets invested in somthing. Logically MA invests it in their game, EU.

This does not affect the ingame rules in any way. So MA ultimatly get their money through decay. What road it takes, doenst realy matter.

Wow I never realized how studying biochemistry can help understand a game...
I do see an underlying problem though. The in-game storage facility could evolve into a Dumpster where decayed/unsold items are kept for eternity. What will happen if that happens?

Witte said:

I think you missunderstand the concept "we take money from decay". It means that the way money leaves the EU economy and becomes Mindarks, is through decay. It can very well be that the amount of deposits lies pretty close to the total earnings from decay.

Click to expand...

From page 15 of the financial statement:



I really recommend at least looking at the document, just a glace.

The income statement details how they calculate their profit:

For their total revenue (see above), net sales is determined by subtracting out user requested withdrawls.

Then expenses are subtracted, such as operating costs and personnel costs.

What they are left with is profit. It has nothing to do with decay.

I'm not making this up. Really...have a look.

Amanita said:

From page 15 of the financial statement:

I really recommend at least looking at the document, just a glace.

The income statement details how they calculate their profit:

For their total revenue (see above), net sales is determined by subtracting out user requested withdrawls.

Then expenses are subtracted, such as operating costs and personnel costs.

What they are left with is profit. It has nothing to do with decay.

I'm not making this up. Really...have a look.

Click to expand...

Yes, but i still dont see how they are lying. Like I said it just means that they dont have all the money (TT value) available for withdrawl on an account.

Thats just very normal for a company. If everyone would empty his bank savings account today, the bank wont have enough money either.

The lie comes in right here:

Marco|MindArk said:

No, MindArks revenue stream is from decay. So it is not an urban legend. All other areas (auction fee, ammo, etc) is cycled back into the economy.

Click to expand...

Here's the link to that post: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=92752&postcount=18

I'm addressing the "profit = decay" assertion that's part of the 'entropy' concept that started this thread.

It was stated by MA, but is a lie.

Amanita said:

The lie comes in right here:



Here's the link to that post: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=92752&postcount=18

I'm addressing the "profit = decay" assertion that's part of the 'entropy' concept that started this thread.

It was stated by MA, but is a lie.

Click to expand...

They are talking about the money stream from virtual to realworld. And that stream only consists of decay, according to them. But I think that quote is well outdated, because a pretty large part of their revenue is the sales of virtual estates.

All marco is trying to explain is how the devaluation of the entire EU economy works. And in the end, how we, the users, lose money (or pay MA). This is just a rule that MA has made up. And it has nothing to do with how MA invests their incomes in the realworld.

Augh my thread has been resurrected only to turn into an argument on semantics. Please don't get it locked.

People seem to get confused by the difference between the accounts of MA and the virtual accounts. What Witte is saying is that MA only "claims" the PED amount lost to decay from the virtual economy. What Amanita is saying is that MA claims all deposits-all withdrawals as their revenue (quoted directly from MA). Both can be true; they are not mutually exclusive. You are arguing two different points, really. It has been pointed out before that the PED is a promissory note (er...coin ) backed only by the good faith of MA. That's not a secret and shouldn't be a surprise, and is what connects what Witte is saying with what Amanita is saying without conflict.

cheers

MA does make money from decay, yes. MA also does not take ALL the decay as profit, nor get ALL their profit from decay...
Why do MA profit from decay? The same reason as why you get less TT back on your crafted items than you stuff into the machine.. they skim a little bit of everything you do.
If MA made their money from decay, then we could all craft at breakeven or profit and MA would make no money.. Now does that make sense? No, it dont, cause it aint so..

And as someone mentioned, deposits and withdrawals are kept in the books as income and expense...
HOWEVER, to everyone that think the financial statements tell the full story.. Bookeeping and reality is two things that has HUGE rooms for interpretation.. That MA write the deposits as income doesnt need to say a thing about what they do with that money...
A good bookeper also make sure the taxable income is as low as possible, by being smart about how he writes the financial reports... Taxes = lost profit