"Borrowed" Checkbox in Trade-Window

Hi,

probably not the first time this comes up as a wish.

Sometimes people ask other people they know if they can borrow their items.

Right now there are two ways to borrow stuff:

1. Trust the guy that you get your weapon back
2. The guy that asks for an item, gives big security (becomes impossible for a Mod-Fap or Mod Merc unless your extremely rich)

Why not add a checkbox to the trade.window that both people have to check if, for example, a Mod-Fap is borrowed. By this agreement, the person who gives away the Mod-Fap can at any time take the borrowed item back plus the Mod-Fap can NOT be traded to anyone else, can not be dropped, can not be sold in auctions and can only be given back to the legal owner. The original owner still has the Mod-Fap as "transpatrent item" in it's inventory and let's say by right clicking it, he can use the function "Get item back". and it will appear as a full item in it's inventory again.

Maybe I didn't explain it well enough, but I think everyone knows what I mean.

That would be a great improvement.

Thanks for looking into it.
Mike

You must be new here.

The problem with that would be Mike, that you and i and a lot of other people would then never be able to buy any decent mid or high level gear. Because all would be bought at inflated prices by a few lending service owners. Would kill the game for me.

Leona said:

The problem with that would be Mike, that you and i and a lot of other people would then never be able to buy any decent mid or high level gear. Because all would be bought at inflated prices by a few lending service owners. Would kill the game for me.

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I understand your concerns Leona, but you must admit that it would be an asset to the game if people could, let's say within the same soc, have an interchange of items during i.E. vacation time without any risk and getting their items back.

And it would be an asset to those not having a big PED card like a few ingame that can afford buying full Shadow/Supremacy or any other high end equipment.

And a lending service would be a nice opportunity to you and many of your soc mates since you guys, and many other in top soc's, have the toys that would fit into exactly this category of items that people usually want to try but never get to since you wont give them away unless you be sure you get them back.

But as I mentioned before, I can understand the concerns regarding this idea and I doubt MA will ever implement such a feature

Enjoy last christmas day, peace
Mike

Mad Mike Hoare said:

Hi,

probably not the first time this comes up as a wish.


Mike

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You're correct.
A feature like this and a "lock" check box have been asked for many times over the years.

How long do you think it will take that someone 'sells' an item to someone else for peds with the checkbox on? Then the buyer gets scammed.

Checkbox or no checkbox, both are open for scams.

Don't lend out items, and with all the L toys for every skill level, I hardly see the need for it. and for mod or imp fap, you can just hire a fapper.

I hope they never add something like this tbh.

I don't like the idea of everyone being able to run around with uber gear all the time. It is possible today yes, but atleast you have to trust the person ALOT, and its risky.

Leona said:

The problem with that would be Mike, that you and i and a lot of other people would then never be able to buy any decent mid or high level gear. Because all would be bought at inflated prices by a few lending service owners. Would kill the game for me.

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DRDoom said:

How long do you think it will take that someone 'sells' an item to someone else for peds with the checkbox on? Then the buyer gets scammed.

Checkbox or no checkbox, both are open for scams.

Don't lend out items, and with all the L toys for every skill level, I hardly see the need for it. and for mod or imp fap, you can just hire a fapper.

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To every problem there is a solution. Perhaps for this one it could be to allow an item to be borrowed but no charge can be made for it.

GeorgeSkywalker said:

To every problem there is a solution. Perhaps for this one it could be to allow an item to be borrowed but no charge can be made for it.

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No way to enforce that.

This has been discussed many times and what Leona said is right. And also MA has said that they won't do it.

Trust sometimes is the only way. I have lent and borrowed many nice items on a trust and reputation basis. I borrowed a set of Shadow with less collateral on the basis of reputation and trust two weeks ago. You soon know who you can trust ingame.

Xen said:

No way to enforce that.

This has been discussed many times and what Leona said is right. And also MA has said that they won't do it.

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How about if borrower provides evidence of a charge being made he/she gets to keep all items from banned avatar. Anyone charging for a borrowing service gets immediate ban.

Surely no one would be dumb enough to actually charge then? let alone set up a loan service that charges?

Eh Mike go to a Copyshop buy a lending agreement (costs 1 Euro)
Let send you the personal ID of the lending person + get back the lending agreement . Than your on the secure side and i think thats a fair way to hold your right for the items .
for you as a lending person it should be not that problem . the agreement secures only the giving back and the personal ID he l nead than when you breach of contact only.
I d lend my whole stuff 1 times like 2 month without that. I had sleeped bad & learned .
That s the only way i think i l lend stuff again.

This topic been discussed multiple times. There as many arguments for as against implementing something like that. Don't remember who exactly, but some official said it will not be implemented.

Few Scars said:

Trust sometimes is the only way. I have lent and borrowed many nice items on a trust and reputation basis. I borrowed a set of Shadow with less collateral on the basis of reputation and trust two weeks ago. You soon know who you can trust ingame.

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Unfortunately trust is not enough to be safe while lending items without suitable collateral. And I don't mean situation where somebody would scam us.
I've been discussing this topic with a friend long time ago and it looks like there are many situations apart trust scam, that you can lose your items.
To mention few most obvious:
- in case of borrower getting seriously sick (or dying in result of some random accident) you have slim chances to recover item, only family who knows situation and have access to borrower's account can help
- in case of borrower getting temp or perm lock you have slim to none chances to recover item, only IRL contact and getting IRL re-compensate gives any hope
- in case of borrower being unable to get online (hardware, gold card, other factors) you have prolonged period without being able to get item(s) back

As you can see trust is one thing, collateral is something whole different.
I do not lend more valuable items without collateral, even to people who I completely trust and they have pristine reputation. For the same reasons I do not borrow items without collateral as well.

Few Scars said:

Trust sometimes is the only way. I have lent and borrowed many nice items on a trust and reputation basis. I borrowed a set of Shadow with less collateral on the basis of reputation and trust two weeks ago. You soon know who you can trust ingame.

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Yes a lot of people have trusted a lot of people. And sometimes they've been scammed.
That doesn't mean that it's the only way to do things.

Luckily most people are honest. But there's no way to know for sure, unless you know them IRL. Even if you *know* for sure they won't scam you, you could still be wrong.
History is my proof. Unfortunately.

GeorgeSkywalker said:

How about if borrower provides evidence of a charge being made he/she gets to keep all items from banned avatar. Anyone charging for a borrowing service gets immediate ban.

Surely no one would be dumb enough to actually charge then? let alone set up a loan service that charges?

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And very soon scammers would lure others to "charge" when borrowing stuff, to get the items for free.
And MA would have to play detectives and judges etc.

Felix Kiste said:

Eh Mike go to a Copyshop buy a lending agreement (costs 1 Euro)
Let send you the personal ID of the lending person + get back the lending agreement . Than your on the secure side and i think thats a fair way to hold your right for the items .
for you as a lending person it should be not that problem . the agreement secures only the giving back and the personal ID he l nead than when you breach of contact only.
I d lend my whole stuff 1 times like 2 month without that. I had sleeped bad & learned .
That s the only way i think i l lend stuff again.

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And if someone runs off with your mod fap, you are gonna do what, with your paper?

Vedder said:

And very soon scammers would lure others to "charge" when borrowing stuff, to get the items for free.
And MA would have to play detectives and judges etc.

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yup very true.


*sigh* scammers ruining game for us

The only way I could ever see a lend/rent system work, is it would have to be similar to the bank tellers. A contract, with terms, where the item is automatically returned after the terms expire. It would also have to include a feature where the item couldn't be sold, or traded to anyone else while the contract was still active. I'm sure it could be done...but I doubt it's much of a priority for MA. They want you to buy stuff not rent it.

And if someone runs off with your mod fap, you are gonna do what, with your paper?[/QUOTE]

i l go to my lawyer . hes happy than and writes some letters with a deadline including.
when he dont reacts like 3 month stinky people come to his door l knock & check his livestyle + setting some stickers on worthable RL items .
When he dont pays again he can sleep on the ground or goes straight to jail
Its same way like a bank gives you a credit .
You think you can run away with a credit & could never be found again ? i dont know where you want to go hide yourself. Into the jungle ?

I know money isnt the item , but who gives his items away must know about they l never return with some bad luck.

Felix Kiste said:

l go to my lawyer . hes happy than and writes some letters with a deadline including.
when he dont reacts like 3 month stinky people come to his door l knock & check his livestyle + setting some stickers on worthable RL items .
When he dont pays again he can sleep on the ground or goes straight to jail
Its same way like a bank gives you a credit .
You think you can run away with a credit & could never be found again ? i dont know where you want to go hide yourself. Into the jungle ?

I know money isnt the item , but who gives his items away must know about they l never return with some bad luck.

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Do you expect person, who is planning to scam, to send you his/her real ID?

Trust when lending items is what is needed these days


I myself have my trust located at the front door in the shape of a bat, made out of steel.


I never let someone borrow anything from me unless I know who they are IRL and have met them IRL.

A plane ticket does not cost much most of the times, and a plane ticket I can afford.

Get to know people, soon you will know who you can lend stuff to without risking their legs being broken =)

As many have mentioned this probably won't happen. There are many other things MA have plans to work on...I see taming happening before this system To MA there is no benefit of this system, having the ability to use high end and sometimes eco weapons for a minimal amount compared to the value of the item means less profit for MA, IMO. Trust and collateral are the only options and I'm fine with them, because I don't borrow items But I have lent items to ones I trust and have got them all back, but I went into them with the notion that I might not get them back. So if you do lend items without collateral make sure it's something you can afford to lose, because as mentioned above trust is not the only issue but RL situations that could hold your items hostage.

Although I think this item lending/returning idea would at a glance be difficult to implement, it's a good idea, generally speaking. Here are some thoughts:

1) Borrowed item appears as locked in inventory; it cannot be sold, traded or dropped just as an already-repaired item cannot be repaired. It just bounces back to inventory with an error message.

2) The lender chooses the duration of lending of the item; i.e. he/she would specify that the borrower could have it for 24 hours, or 3 days, up to 1 week perhaps, at which time, it auto-returns to the lender's inventory, with TT value the same as when it was lent. Kind of like when you leave your VTOL somewhere and die or logoff; when you login again, it's back in your storage.

3) A corollary to #2 concerns the borrowed item's decay. You wouldn't want someone to borrow your car with a full tank of gas and return it with the tank run dry. So, a borrowed item has a certain "start" value. As long as a borrower's PED card has enough funds in it, at any time while the item is borrowed, to return it to its start value, he can keep the item, up to the point it has been returned or auto-returned. If the borrower tries to do anything that lowers his PED card to below what is necessary to keep the item at its original value, an error message pops up.

These terms would prevent selling/trading the borrowed item, and help to ensure a borrower doesn't decay the item beyond what they can afford. It eliminates the need for collateral as the item is guaranteed to be returned to the lender in original condition, even if the borrower doesn't login to the game.

EDIT: I just realized the decay/return to original value thing wouldn't work for (L) items, as they cannot be repaired...

if borrowing were introduced, every high end item would end up in the hands of a few individuals. It would kill the game.

Theren Strange said:

if borrowing were introduced, every high end item would end up in the hands of a few individuals. It would kill the game.

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Er....that's pretty much how it is right now. Explain how borrowing would change that?

Back in the old days--at least 8 years ago or more, before the change to (L) items, it *was* possible for non-uber players to loot rare, high-end items. Though, even then, they weren't as rare as they've become. You could loot a MKV from an Atrox Young, an ML-35 from a mid-range Atrax, a Camo Arms from a Biff, Shadow parts from various mobs including everyday-average Argos...hell, you could loot a friggin' Mod Merc from a generous Feff.

Compare that to now? Unless you're one of the 10% top-of-the-food-chain ubers, you have 3 chances of looting anything comparable to those examples: SLIM, FAT & NONE. Because the only mobs that drop those items are ones that only ubes can take down.

Coelacanth said:

Er....that's pretty much how it is right now.

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No. It is not how it is now.

Coelacanth said:

Back in the old days--at least 8 years ago or more...You could loot a MKV from an Atrox Young, an ML-35 from a mid-range Atrax, a Camo Arms from a Biff, Shadow parts..

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Your deluded. We didnt shit gold out of our ass, at whim, 8 yrs ago. If this were true, ever, EU wouldnt spawn such bitter, disillusioned old-timers such as yourself.

As it has been said a thousand times to anyone who ever listened, it would give the few people who already have way too much...too much more. it would create a two-tier economy. Your own imagination cannot obviously conjure the scenario that borrowing would create. Give Akoz/Tzepu every single item in this universe worth 20k ped or more. And give them a means to make money from lending them out to folk like you. Think about it - can you imagine that scenario, with all its ramifications??

There will never be any in-game function designed for lending items, on an avatar to avatar basis. Ever.

Reasons have been given, are very straight-forward and easy to understand. No point trying to argue for this anymore, as it will NEVER EVER HAPPEN.


The day this functionality appears in-game (which will be NEVER), I will borrow as much money as the bank will allow me to borrow for such a venture, and buy up all top end gear immediately. You would never be able to PURCHASE anything unlimited above Gremlin or Marber Bravo, ever again.
You could RENT them though, at a premium.
From me