Designer Scams/ malpractice. What to do about it?

Profit said:

Beauty, colouring and textures is so confusing to understand from a customers perspective, that I will never use said services. It's simply not worth the risk, nor the outcome (color/texture items often look crap on less than high/v.high gfx anyway).

This thread outlines some reasons as to why the profession is so stunted.

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to clear up some confusion you could read my guide http://color-service.info/guide.html

LeeLoo Faith said:

to clear up some confusion you could read my guide http://color-service.info/guide.html

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Indeed!

Seconded!

I've actually seen several good guides on the forums. And to save my customers the trouble of clicking a link, i've even put nearly all the info they could possibly want in the OP of my service thread.

But most of them don't read the info! (I can tell, cos they constantly ask me questions that i've already answered )

It's a shame because you really are wide-open to being scammed of you don't know how the system works, and its not like Designers are trying to conceal that info - quite the opposite, in most cases!



jay

valivill said:

the first part without a quote I do disagree.
Scamming is misleading. When nothing is agreed upon the person who colored/textured he/she can do what they pleases with the return. There are no rules for it. ONLY COURTESY, which I think is bad and should be changed to a better system.

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There is something called "malpractice". Common practice appears to be to return the coins (90% of TT) minus the fee if any. Not returning the coins could be "malpractice".

Think of the people who invite everyone they meet into teams with odd rules (random, queue etc): In one way it's not scam as it's visible in team window. On the other hand it is, because the people inviting others into these kind of teams count with that the hunters who accept the team invite doesn't read the rules (until it's too late).

My guess is that the colorers who keep the coins silently probably just are new to this area and don't know the common practice. Maybe one or two of them do it on purpose as a way to earn cheap cash. In those cases, they first need to be told that what they do isn't the normal practice, and if they persist their practice should be known. One thought is, if a colorer doesn't return any coins at all, if you can trust them to use all the color you give them - maybe a "nub" colorer uses say 100 cans, thinks "result is good enough I need the PEDs", and thinks that teh customer won't complain about a bad result. Also, there probably are beginner level colorers who know nothing about color levels and paint needed and thinks "best result" is the result that is to be expected using for instance a single paint can.

To reduce the risk of scamming and malpractice, I wuold suggest a shared interface (optional) like the beautician. Let's say a shared interface where both colorer and the customer can add materials into the colorator, both parts have to click "accept" button; if procedure is cancelled by either party the stuff goes back to whoever put it there, if it's accepted the return coins are divided proportionally to whoever supplied but before being paid out the customer's part gets reduced by the fee (agreed upon in advance) and the PEDs needed to repair the item to full condition. (There could be a discrapancy of course for instance if both parts supply pains with different market value, but that's a minor thing that could be agreed upon after or by adjusting the fee - the fee could be negative to allow customers more peds back taken from the colorer's part).

aia said:

I wuold suggest a shared interface (optional) like the beautician. Let's say a shared interface where both colorer and the customer can add materials into the colorator, both parts have to click "accept" button; if procedure is cancelled by either party the stuff goes back to whoever put it there, if it's accepted the return coins are divided proportionally to whoever supplied but before being paid out the customer's part gets reduced by the fee (agreed upon in advance) and the PEDs needed to repair the item to full condition. (There could be a discrapancy of course for instance if both parts supply pains with different market value, but that's a minor thing that could be agreed upon after or by adjusting the fee - the fee could be negative to allow customers more peds back taken from the colorer's part).

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That sounds horribly complicated. And it wouldn't work

We all want a shared interface , but unless MA radically change the colouring system, it can't work the exact same way as the beauty interface. That would be open to other kinds of abuse. For example: people could just use 1 can every time, then keep clicking reject until they finally got a random good result from that one can

jay

jaywalker said:

That sounds horribly complicated. And it wouldn't work

We all want a shared interface , but unless MA radically change the colouring system, it can't work the exact same way as the beauty interface. That would be open to other kinds of abuse. For example: people could just use 1 can every time, then keep clicking reject until they finally got a random good result from that one can

jay

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Using one can would be like using one can in solo mode as it works already today: It might work (unlikely) or it wouldn't work (most likely).

Noone will stop you from trying with just one paint can already today - but it's very unlikely it will succeed and you will have to bleach between each attempt. It would work same way with the way I thougit it out.

To specify it more:
You put in your items and possibly some cans/enhancers. Colorer puts in cans/enhancers. You press OK, Colorer press ok. (Now (possibly) add a second confirmation level.)

If the procedure is accepted by both parties: Coloring attempt is made (as if it would be done solo), materials is consumed, items are returned to "putter" and ped coins and enhancers returned proportionally to "putter". Colored items are returned as successful as they become - if you want to try again, you need to do another attempt with new materials. You can do another attempt using more paint, the same way you today can do repeated coloring attempts.

If the procedure is rejected by any party: Coloring attempt is cancelled - no coloring is made. Items and materials are returned, unused and unchanged, to whoever put it into the interface. You can cancel any times you want but then nothing at all happens.

There is just one slight thing I didn't think of: The bleach should be a checkbox option on the common interface, and the common interface should also clearly state if it's for textures or colors.

Difference with beauty interface: First, you should be able to use a colorator as normal ("solo"). Secondly, each attempt would decay the colorator and bleacher normally. Again as today you can do numerous attempts with one can but you'd have to pay the decay for colorator+bleacher for each attempt and of course the paint will be consumed. I guess the likelyhood of succeeding coloring an item with 1+1+1 black paint cans in perfectly black is rather low (unless you're using a good texture you usually want to color more than one field, which lessens the overal probability of a good result with just one can/field).

I agree

Hey Entropian's brad here i agree to many people have abused this service there are a few u can trust like both leeloo's, Bjorn, Myself and who ever else above me i heard no negative work from the people on leeloo's list above me for the whole 5 yrs doing it not once i been asked for calateral i know the customer has the right to ask but they know they can trust me 100% i return the full 90% return's + there items i colour i even let them know even if they supply and even tho its @ 100% wat they ask for but sometime things dont look right the way u thought i even suggested if they not i use my own peds to make it how they like.

P.S i hit lvl 19 texturing today yeppie ty guys for using my service and giving me the skills

Kind regards brads colouring service

aia said:

There is something called "malpractice". Common practice appears to be to return the coins (90% of TT) minus the fee if any. Not returning the coins could be "malpractice".

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I dont consider something common when ONLY 2-3 ppl offer this kind of service daily/ very often.
The coloringmarket is not that big. (im excluding ppl like Bjorn who are level 30+ and barely/never offer their service to random ppl)
Thus the customer should ALWAYS ask be4 letting something colored/textured about the return and like most ppl say "collateral", just to be sure.

These kinds of things are possible for crafted goods too, its not just limited to coloring. They all have a chance to fail x % of the time, which is where the problem lies, only one party will know the outcome.

For a solution:
I think the steaming idea is perfect, and should be must have for anyone serious about coloring/crafting for others.

twitch.tv is free. x-split is free. Took me about 30 minutes to get it working on twitch. And a couple others out there as well you can use. own.tv is another.

If someone is hesitant to do this to ensure honesty when asked, then they probably shouldn't be hired.

forgo said:

twitch.tv is free. x-split is free. Took me about 30 minutes to get it working on twitch. And a couple others out there as well you can use. own.tv is another.

If someone is hesitant to do this to ensure honesty when asked, then they probably shouldn't be hired.

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I can think of a few reasons why people would be hesitant, quite apart ftom the implied dishonesty

The most relevant reason reason to this discussion would be:

I know I'm not the only designer who switches to high graphics for design work, and who finds that their PC barely handles it. Therefore, I also switch off all other applications I have running to cut down on lagg/ chances of crashing.

Do you think that all Entropan designers should be rich enough to have a state-of-the-art gaming PC and dual monitors? Or that they would be that rich, if they were only honest?

jay

jaywalker said:

I can think of a few reasons why people would be hesitant, quite apart ftom the implied dishonesty

The most relevant reason reason to this discussion would be:

I know I'm not the only designer who switches to high graphics for design work, and who finds that their PC barely handles it. Therefore, I also switch off all other applications I have running to cut down on lagg/ chances of crashing.

Do you think that all Entropan designers should be rich enough to have a state-of-the-art gaming PC and dual monitors? Or that they would be that rich, if they were only honest?

jay

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I agree. Poorly thought out idea.

Basically this: If designers want to form a union to assure others that they are decent people, and want to screen folks for it... well.. that is a society. Leave your current ones and join that one. Screen people. Display your soc name. Show people you are serious.

That will be all.

aia said:

Difference with beauty interface: First, you should be able to use a colorator as normal ("solo"). Secondly, each attempt would decay the colorator and bleacher normally. Again as today you can do numerous attempts with one can but you'd have to pay the decay for colorator+bleacher for each attempt and of course the paint will be consumed. I guess the likelyhood of succeeding coloring an item with 1+1+1 black paint cans in perfectly black is rather low (unless you're using a good texture you usually want to color more than one field, which lessens the overal probability of a good result with just one can/field).

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Oh! OK. Let's hope that MA eventually implement this

valivill said:

I dont consider something common when ONLY 2-3 ppl offer this kind of service daily/ very often

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There are at least five such people with active service threads on this forum. And I can think of several more who don't advertise here because they operate mainly on Ark. So your estimate is way too low. And , yes, it is common practice to return the PED, minus any agreed service fee


jay

valivill said:

Thus the customer should ALWAYS ask be4 letting something colored/textured about the return

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Hang on you are putting the onus on the customer, who likely doesn't even know enough to ask that question, if it's his first time... or if he got fleeced on his first time.

The question is: what can we as practitioners do to protect people from scammers/ malpractioners?

I always mention the PED return in trade chat, yet I still get many customers who have no idea about it and who thank me profusely for telling them, and returning the PED. Interestingly, they often add " I could have easily been scammed" Their words, not mine. So it seems that people naturally think that those returned PED should be theirs, no? Whether they ask for them or not.

valivill said:

and like most ppl say "collateral", just to be sure

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like one or two people said. I have several problems with this suggestion

1) It's putting the onus on the customer again
2) It doesn't address the most common scams ar all. Item theft is something that is done by unskilled noobs pretending to be colourers (best defense: scan them). The skilled people have too much to lose. The other thing about item theft is that when somebody does get away with it, the that knows full well he's ben scammed and kicks up a stink, The more common problems are non-return of PED and skimmong off materials, because real designers can and do get away with this repeatedly.
3) It could lead to a sense of false security. The guy takes this simple advice to avoid getting scammed, and therefore thinks he's protected and can't be scammed now. Haha.
4) It creates scamming potential in the reverse direction; as it's very hard to price customisable items, and most people think they're worth more than they are, you are either in for a long haggling session, or you overpay the collareral just to get it over with. Not only that: sometimes the designer is using her own very costly materials. Now if the customer is holding collateral, he can say: I don't like the job, you keep it, I'll keep the collateral. I'm sure some would think that fair enough; but if it's not your fault that he doesn't like it (you did everything exactly as asked) and if you overpaid on callateral as well, it would be awful.
Another thing that a dishonest customer could do is "forget" to return the collateral, unless you ask. Sometimes this would work, because unlike with normal trades, you are accustomed to handing over a load of stuff without getting anything in return (except maybe a tip) so the collateral could easily slip your mind
Also note that the designer is normally a known quantity, but the customer often is not, so the chances of the customer working a scam- if the potential is there- are much greater. You can't ask around about the customer's rep
5) Its a lot of faffing about. Even if a suitable collateral price can be swiftly agreed, there's a high chance I don't have that on my PEd card right now, so I have to scratch around for a suitable item to offer instead. Again, that likely leads to overpayment, because it's hard to find an exact fit, and you don;'t want to keep people waiting.

...all that just to "prove" that I'm honest? when i know damned well that it proves nothing at all?


Anyway, given your insistence that keeping the PED return isn't a scam as such, Valivill, and that there must be an agreement, I think that's all the more reason for designers to have an agreed code of practice.

How about we post it on this forum and everybody sign to it, if they agree? Then customers can take it as read that those designers who signed will return their 90% without quibbling. And then they will know and we will know they have just grounds for complaint if it doesn't happen, even if they never asked because they found out about it too late.


I don't see why people would not want to sign to that. It doesn't stop you taking out an agreed service fee, after all.

jay

[OUOTE]

How about we post it on this forum and everybody sign to it, if they agree? Then customers can take it as read that those designers who signed will return their 90% without quibbling. And then they will know and we will know they have just grounds for complaint if it doesn't happen, even if they never asked because they found out about it too late.
[/B]

I don't see why people would not want to sign to that. It doesn't stop you taking out an agreed service fee, after all.

jay [/QUOTE]

It's a good idea but how much good will it do? There is a lot of people who don't even read the forums and that's why those scams occur in the first place.

Summer said:

It's a good idea but how much good will it do? There is a lot of people who don't even read the forums and that's why those scams occur in the first place.

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Sadly, you are right.

I don't expect this will fix the problem entirely, nor that anything short of a shared interface will fix it. However, i do think it will help.

On the positive side we can say:

a) Things that get posted on the forums do get spread about in-game; and if it's interesting and relevant enough, people post links. A clearly stated Code of Practice is the sort of thing that people will post links to, if these issues are raised in-game

b) Obviously there will be people who don't find out about the Code of Practice in time, but finding out retrospectively can still be useful to them, if only because they'll know better next time.

c) Nobody will be able to muddy the waters by arguing that returning the PED is not common practice, for example; not if a load of well-known designers have signed to say that it is exactly what they do!

d) The widespread ignorance isn't just a consequence of not reading the forums. There are a lot of people who do read the forums but who just don''t find out that particlar info, because it's buried in threads that never caught their interest. A dedicated thread titled " Colourers' and Texturers' Code of Practice" (or similar) will hopefully be more visible to those who want to know

It might also be useful to incude a brief explanation of what the customer can and cannot expect (eg pointing out failure wiith 323 cans is highly unlikely, if the colourer has the requisite skill, but can happen on rare occasions). And to list some of BS explanations that some have reportedly given when caught out. The best way to fight misinformation is with information!

jay

jaywalker said:

like one or two people said. I have several problems with this suggestion

1) It's putting the onus on the customer again
2) It doesn't address the most common scams ar all. Item theft is something that is done by unskilled noobs pretending to be colourers (best defense: scan them). The skilled people have too much to lose. The other thing about item theft is that when somebody does get away with it, the that knows full well he's ben scammed and kicks up a stink, The more common problems are non-return of PED and skimmong off materials, because real designers can and do get away with this repeatedly.
3) It could lead to a sense of false security. The guy takes this simple advice to avoid getting scammed, and therefore thinks he's protected and can't be scammed now. Haha.
4) It creates scamming potential in the reverse direction; as it's very hard to price customisable items, and most people think they're worth more than they are, you are either in for a long haggling session, or you overpay the collareral just to get it over with. Not only that: sometimes the designer is using her own very costly materials. Now if the customer is holding collateral, he can say: I don't like the job, you keep it, I'll keep the collateral. I'm sure some would think that fair enough; but if it's not your fault that he doesn't like it (you did everything exactly as asked) and if you overpaid on callateral as well, it would be awful.
Another thing that a dishonest customer could do is "forget" to return the collateral, unless you ask. Sometimes this would work, because unlike with normal trades, you are accustomed to handing over a load of stuff without getting anything in return (except maybe a tip) so the collateral could easily slip your mind
Also note that the designer is normally a known quantity, but the customer often is not, so the chances of the customer working a scam- if the potential is there- are much greater. You can't ask around about the customer's rep
5) Its a lot of faffing about. Even if a suitable collateral price can be swiftly agreed, there's a high chance I don't have that on my PEd card right now, so I have to scratch around for a suitable item to offer instead. Again, that likely leads to overpayment, because it's hard to find an exact fit, and you don;'t want to keep people waiting.

...all that just to "prove" that I'm honest? when i know damned well that it proves nothing at all?


Anyway, given your insistence that keeping the PED return isn't a scam as such, Valivill, and that there must be an agreement, I think that's all the more reason for designers to have an agreed code of practice.

How about we post it on this forum and everybody sign to it, if they agree? Then customers can take it as read that those designers who signed will return their 90% without quibbling. And then they will know and we will know they have just grounds for complaint if it doesn't happen, even if they never asked because they found out about it too late.


I don't see why people would not want to sign to that. It doesn't stop you taking out an agreed service fee, after all.

jay

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With some of your statements you simply have to judge by your own professional judgement.
Ill reply on all 5 of your statements. In general we cannot control some1 else's lack of trust/information or overconfidence (customer doesnt care if he/she gets collateral)

1. customer can just give you 200 peds of items and dont give a sh*t. We CANNOT control that.
I will repeat myself, this will not change till MA changes the method for coloring.

2. Hard to trace material use >> new method needed to verify this. im excluding external programs so the customer can watch the proces. returning peds/fee should be agreed upon and not by assumptions. We cannot control if some1 uses an unknown colorer and didnt know he charges a fee.
About ppl who pretend to be colorers >>> scan them ( we cannot control that.)

3. Getting collateral is better than getting no collateral and then get scammed. We cannot control if some1 else doesnt give a sh*t if he gets no collateral. Customer has to use common sense to value his item + collateral given.

4. you need to use your professional judgement. Value all items + to be used textures/colors vs given collateral. In your example you will get the burden to sell the item etc.
Its really the colorers problem if he gives too much collateral.

5. Its the colorers problem not to have 200 peds value on him/her. Depo or always have items on you.

Conclusion: people have to think that anyone can do inappropriate things and keep this in mind when using someone in our profession. we simply cannot avoid it 100%. Not with this system.

We can discuss this forever and ever but its really this simple.

code of practice.... barely any1 uses this forum. Only when they need to buy/sell something they come here. Major developments will be spread ingame by a small group.

valivill said:

With some of your statements you simply have to judge by your own professional judgement.
Ill reply on all 5 of your statements.

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very detailed reply, but, sorry seems to me like you completely missed the point.

I'n not suggesting we can control the customer : I'm saying: advise people to scan the designer (or check their title. Most of us have our rank, which cannot be faked); but don't advise them to always ask for collateral, even if visiting summer or Leeoo because that doesn't really protect them from scams, and creates more problems than it solves

Yes, Popeye would not have been scammed of his UL Sleip if he'd asked for collateral; but equally he would not have ben scammed of it, if he's only scanned the fake Summer to see if she really had the skills. That's all that's really needed to protect against item theft

If that scammer was really smart, she could have next gone to the real Summer and asked for a custom job on the Sleip-- and collateral. Since the thing was virtually unsaleable , and mu dropping like a stone, she would have been laughing all the way to the bank...if summer were daft enough to say "yes"

jay

jaywalker said:

very detailed reply, but, sorry seems to me like you completely missed the point.

I'n not suggesting we can control the customer : I'm saying: advise people to scan the designer (or check their title. Most of us have our rank, which cannot be faked); but don't advise them to always ask for collateral, even if visiting summer or Leeoo because that doesn't really protect them from scams, and creates more problems than it solves

jay

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and thus i didnt miss the point.

by scanning the person >> customer needs think smart and always consider he could get scammed.

I do think collateral is a good way to compensate "some" of the potential risk.
As mentioned be4.

I will repeat it again....
As i said we cant control them and we cant think for them. Only mosty or all points is to change this system into a different system

valivill said:

I do think collateral is a good way to compensate "some" of the potential risk.
As mentioned be4.

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Let me repeat:

jaywalker said:

If that scammer was really smart, she could have next gone to the real Summer and asked for a custom job on the Sleip-- and collateral. Since the thing was virtually unsaleable , and mu dropping like a stone, she would have been laughing all the way to the bank...if summer were daft enough to say "yes"

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If everybody starts asking for collateral, upshot will be that designers will have to be very, very careful who they accept work from; because nobody wants to wind up paying top whack for an item that they don't want, and that might even be hot. Not worth the risk.


I didn't want to labour that point because it gives scammers ideas, but then I'm sure that some have already thought it out for themselves.

Now which is easier? Checking the rep of a known designer? or checking the rep of thousands of miscellaneous customers? Bear in mind , you can't scan the customer to see if he's genuine.

valivill said:

I will repeat it again....
As i said we cant control them and we cant think for them. Only mosty or all points is to change this system into a different system

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In that case, why the heck do you keep on repeating that useless and meddlesome advice? Leave advice to those of us who think there's some use in it.

jay

jaywalker said:

Let me repeat:


If everybody starts asking for collateral, upshot will be that designers will have to be very, very careful who they accept work from; because nobody wants to wind up paying top whack for an item that they don't want, and that might even be hot. Not worth the risk.


I I'm sure that some have already thought it out for themselves.

Now which is easier? Checking the rep of a known designer? or checking the rep of thousands of miscellaneous customers? Bear in mind , you can't scan the customer to see if he's genuine.




In that case, why the heck do you keep on repeating that useless and meddlesome advice? Leave advice to those of us who think there's some use in it.

jay

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do you even know what professional judgement is ? or even "value an item" ??

IF you want to pay full mu for an item thats your responsibility. If you get something very rare then its up to you to decide what to give as collateral. Most people still need collateral eventhough its the best/most amazing/super/coolest colerer.

It would be easier to get work done by a known colorer, problem is they arent always around and not many people use the forum. So they go to some1 else

In your case you would decline the colorjob ?
Since the customer has to check a well known colorer and its almost impossible to check the rep of 1000+ customers. Sooner or later he will find a well known colorer but he then gets rejected because his item has lots of mu + rare >> unstable mu.

How would you have handle this?



People will still get scammed, or not given the return back.
There is no way to prevent it. they act on lack of information/assumptions.

I dont want to flame you but this is useless. I have to repeat this because there is no waterproof solution with this system and you simply dont see my point.

Maybe you should keep sending support cases to MA to change the system instead of arguments where we both have to agree to disagree.

Regardless of people signing some sort of "union" rules - it is a flimsy alliance at best - and a patchwork fix of something MA should provide in a real cash economy = peace of mind and security.

It is MA's responsibility to provide its users with reasonably secure system to safeguard against theft. It is a SIMPLE UI fix.

It's not that they haven't heard of such scams since beta days.... but they wont even address it.

Everything is wrapped up in a cute "Buyer beware" slogan and dished out without consequences.

Shard-Angel said:

Regardless of people signing some sort of "union" rules - it is a flimsy alliance at best - and a patchwork fix of something MA should provide in a real cash economy = peace of mind and security.

It is MA's responsibility to provide its users with reasonably secure system to safeguard against theft. It is a SIMPLE UI fix.

It's not that they haven't heard of such scams since beta days.... but they wont even address it.

Everything is wrapped up in a cute "Buyer beware" slogan and dished out without consequences.

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Exactly. We already have mentoring system with the ability to find and rate mentors, what we need is also a design service system that lets you find designers who have signed up, see if they are online, get in contact with them and also provide the service with preview, agreement and payment. Making a modified trade window where the agreement action is to apply colours / textures can't be that hard.

it is really really really rare that I get asked for collateral .. maybe happend 3 times since I started coloring I was always surprised nearly nobody asks for it.

If the customers asks for it I try to find a collateral thats good for both of us. If its a coat + paint I just give them my coat for example. If it is something very very rare and expensive I might not have enough to give full value collateral but would try to find something.. I did allready give my Jag Harness as collateral for example.

right now when someone asks for collateral I would be surprised but I would not hesitate to give collateral