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Question: Eco, eco, eco fact or fiction?

C

CozMoDan

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Herco Coz Mann
When I started in 2007 I did, as I am sure most do, use this forum to try to see what, where, when and how to hunt. What weapons, what amps and so on. The thing I got out of the hours of reading (which I enjoyed I must admit) was to use the most eco weapons and amps and try to hunt the biggest mob that your skills would allow. I now see a trend in thinking that I had not seen before. It seems the consensus is your loot is based on the amount of decay that you have when hunting. I have watched Star on stargazing and he is very eco, mod merc, dmg enhancers and ancient amps and gets a lot of gbls and hofs, of course he is hunting huge mobs but he burns through a lot ammo but, by comparison, I don't think his decay based on the amount the he burns is that high. For example, when I first started I got up to an LR53, as I recall, with an E-AMP-15 (this was before enhancers) and hunted Atroxes. I would almost bet that my decay was as much as Star's killing a spider stalker (well maybe not that much but close). Back then I was playing alot and would get 10-12 gbls a day, nothing big but I only did 50 ped runs.

So my point is, is it better to hunt using the most un-eco equiment because of more decay hence more loot and the chance to get bigger gbls or HOFs.

Just a side note, my first gbl was actually 659 ped HOF using a merc at lvl 21 handgunner (hit was 2.1/10 and I don't remember the dmg but I am sure is was about the same LOL) and it was months before I got just a gbl.

Just a thought. let me know what you think.
 
I think loot is directly related to cost to kill..
There are lots of people that think you get 90% no matter what setup you're using....

subscribing :yay:
 
I believe about luck and lootpool

for me :

subject A : dont hunt eco : have big armor big plate only 1 damage by the mob hunt with MkV with eamp15

subject B : hunt eco : plateholder, herbox, hunt with h400 UL and A106

subject A and B have 10 kpeds

I believe if they hunt the same mob subject A will be short on peds before subject B

for the 10 k peds ammo, subject B will kill more creature and will have more chance to have a big loot.

if return related to cost to kill, why an Imk II is overpriced ? same for modTr6 big dps eco weapon ?

if player B can kill more creature he will get more skill and will be able to return more if he chipping out.

thats my point of view, maybe im wrong... my biggest loot were when I was stuck on creature with eco setup and grinding them for a while.
 
It works like this.



Each mob has X loot in.........
Sometimes the system ups the loot (unknown reasons) = Hofs.


Eco means you spend less when killing a mob.

E.g.

Uneco costs 50ped to kill
Eco costs 40ped to kill.



Loot on mob is always 50ped.

So your better going eco and making 10 ped.


Being eco will increase your returns over time.

With many other changing factors, could include cost, but :S
 
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Art Jennifer said:
It works like this.

Uneco costs 50ped to kill
Eco costs 40ped to kill.



Loot on mob is always 50ped.

So your better going eco and making 10 ped.
Click to expand...

Disagree here... You're saying loot will be 50 ped in both cases..
The system is based on cost to kill.. So more cost will give you higher (not better) loot.
90% of 50 ped is more then 90% of 40 ped.

this was proven by that test with opalo +eamp15 on levi with full team... too bad i can't find the thread right now...
 
yeah and average loot on the creature is 90% the cost to kill it

so if a mob cost 5 peds to be killed you will receive 4.5 peds in average loot.

if it cost you 4 peds to kill = profit if it cost you 5 peds = bad return

cost to kill is hp creature, thats not include armor decay, gun decay heal and MU

thats why an eco setup is profitable I think
 
I kind of agree with both of you. I do believe (in the long run) cost of kill is a bigger factor that all the others. If this was not the case why would the top players (Star, Striker and the other ubers) not just kill Atroxes ? I have seen them with several healers killing huge mobs.

I also think there is a place between eco and uneco that is best. Try to be some eco and some un-eco for the best results.

BTW Pogny what is a plateholder ?
 
Art Jennifer said:
It works like this.



Each mob has X loot in.........
Sometimes the system ups the loot (unknown reasons) = Hofs.


Eco means you spend less when killing a mob.

E.g.

Uneco costs 50ped to kill
Eco costs 40ped to kill.



Loot on mob is always 50ped.

So your better going eco and making 10 ped.


Being eco will increase your returns over time.
Click to expand...



Tests over the years busts this over and over.


Loot on mob is always 50 ped?

There is no "pre"-loot in the mobs, never has been never will be. loot is calculated the moment you loot it, which will be calculated from the cost to kill. Just as Bee says above me
 
a plateholder is an armor with 0 defense on the mob you want hunting and you put plate on it.

with a plateholder you armor decay is 0 and plate take 100% decay.

Im using settler + 6a on drone

or settler + 5a on argo

settler has no decay and my plates takes all the decay and they have better eco and no MU so its better for me than using a shogun on drones by example
 
Killahbee said:
Disagree here... You're saying loot will be 50 ped in both cases..
The system is based on cost to kill.. So more cost will give you higher (not better) loot.
90% of 50 ped is more then 90% of 40 ped.

this was proven by that test with opalo +eamp15 on levi with full team... too bad i can't find the thread right now...
Click to expand...

there is evidence to support cost of kill is nothing

hence why eco comes in.

Otherwise why even buy eco guns... MA themselves have said eco is key
 
LangeTobias said:
Tests over the years busts this over and over.


Loot on mob is always 50 ped?

There is no "pre"-loot in the mobs, never has been never will be. loot is calculated the moment you loot it, which will be calculated from the cost to kill. Just as Bee says above me
Click to expand...



Was an example chill.


I have yet to see any evidence that busts this.


loot being based on cost to kill makes no sense. whatso ever
 
the main key was eco before we got these super regen mobs..
 
Pogny said:
a plateholder is an armor with 0 defense on the mob you want hunting and you put plate on it.

with a plateholder you armor decay is 0 and plate take 100% decay.

Im using settler + 6a on drone

or settler + 5a on argo

settler has no decay and my plates takes all the decay and they have better eco and no MU so its better for me than using a shogun on drones by example
Click to expand...

AH I see, I must say I have never thought of the that. I would say that would only work if you are hunting very low lvl drones and argos. LVL 10 drones and Hunter argo are out:).
 
Art Jennifer said:
loot being based on cost to kill makes no sense. whatso ever
Click to expand...

It makes the most sense from a business (MA's) point of view.

If you pay out 90% tt of cost to kill, the company wins. If a player adds cost with markup to kill the mob, MA are quids in, players loses more.

Rgds

Ace
 
Once i asked MA if a kill a mob and get ( let say 2 peds ) but lets pretend that somebody else kills that mob not you would he/she also get the 2 peds.
MA told me NO because loot creats the same moment it die it dont carry any loot.
 
Mini Mum

Loot is based on 'minimum cost to kill' x loot multiplier (90% average)

If a mob has 400 hp, average dam/pec = 4 approx , then 90 pec loot average.

The 10% missing is a margin which is greater than any eco weapon - > 4.4 dam/pec limit to prevent 'real' gains, yet allow variance in player margins.
 
Loot is calculated when you loot the mob.

Loot is based on some values fetched from the mobs loot table in the loot server database.

That number is then run versus a multiplier wich the looting avatar brings to the equation.

We dont know what or who or why, the multipiers are generated , just that they are avatar based.

My theory suggest the mutliper is the system trying to balance you out over time.

MISS shots are lost , and not included in systems attempts to pay you back.
 
Killahbee said:
Disagree here... You're saying loot will be 50 ped in both cases..
The system is based on cost to kill.. So more cost will give you higher (not better) loot.
90% of 50 ped is more then 90% of 40 ped.
Click to expand...



Complete and utter bullshit!

Spending more PED to kill a mob has no effect on the output TT value of that mob's loot. You're just wasting PED. Mindark has flat out stated that eco is paramount. People need to stop spreading these ridiculous false theories that it's possible to 'pump PED' into a mob. These are probably the same idiots that think they can predict which slot machine in a casino will hit based on how warm it is, or where it's located or "someone was playing it for an hour and lost so it's 'ready to pay'". Then if they win on that slot machine then their theory MUST be valid. Of course if they lose then their shitty theory is still valid, it just didn't quite work that time.

I mean come on folks. If this were really true then everyone would be hunting punies with massive dps because, 'Why take the damage from the larger mobs?'.:confused:



On second thought if it wasn't for stupid people then Mindark and Casinos wouldn't be profitable. By all means, LET'S GAMBLE!!!!!!:yay::yay::yay::wtg::wtg::wtg::cool::cool::cool:
 
Uncle Mo said:
Complete and utter bullshit!

Spending more PED to kill a mob has no effect on the output TT value of that mob's loot. You're just wasting PED. Mindark has flat out stated that eco is paramount. People need to stop spreading these ridiculous false theories that it's possible to 'pump PED' into a mob. These are probably the same idiots that think they can predict which slot machine in a casino will hit based on how warm it is, or where it's located or "someone was playing it for an hour and lost so it's 'ready to pay'". Then if they win on that slot machine then their theory MUST be valid. Of course if they lose then their shitty theory is still valid, it just didn't quite work that time.

I mean come on folks. If this were really true then everyone would be hunting punies with massive dps because, 'Why take the damage from the larger mobs?'.:confused:



On second thought if it wasn't for stupid people then Mindark and Casinos wouldn't be profitable. By all means, LET'S GAMBLE!!!!!!:yay::yay::yay::wtg::wtg::wtg::cool::cool::cool:
Click to expand...

I agree.

I believe this game is gambling, the only thing that stops me thinking that is the eco, combined with MU.





Killahbee said:
Everything you just said yes :)

There is plenty of proof that it's true that loot is related to cost to kill..
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?210471-Get-involved-Help-test-hunting&
Click to expand...

I think these results are flawed, one being it was in 2011 and I believe we are talking about todays system, never took time to learn eco back then. So can't really comment.


Trying to find this link, somewhere on like Entropia universe.com or mindark under investments, and it said something like

"invest in gear to take down bigger creatures more efficiently to acquire loot"

Which I take as backing up how being eco is key to reduce costs and get a better return..


I guess at the end of the day, you do it your way... I'll do it my way.

as people will never change from there theories unless MA come out and tell us straight.


I personally have seen no increase in loot when I was being un eco, to eco.

I am now killing the same mob with the same loot more efficiently and due to that I am spending less to kill and have seen a small increase in return.

But, like there could be 100's of other reasons for this we have no idea about.

So its going to go around in circles.....

So I am out :p

:tprun:
 
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Instead of asking yourself how it works, just kill the damn thing and then press right-click to see what it holds up its ass. Life is too short to wonder how loot works :p
 
minim said:
I'd like to see fresh tests showing that it doesn't matter anymore :) If you haven't noticed there has been changes to the loot system.
Click to expand...

will do some testing only argo scout for example with Opalo eamp15 and opalo a101 this weekend.
 
I beilieve in multiplier, based on peds spent ( was dmg before ) + a part of the decay armor/fap.
Each mob have his own multiplier, and loot can change at any time if MA want, they can also change loot table and drop rate. ( a team work on this, and because they can change the loot table, they can also change the MU )


Big loot are here for adjusting the loot pool. You can improve your TT return if you don't have huge armor decay at the overall.

Having a maxed weapon matter more than dmg/pec, thats why since mod loot mod merc user have less TT return, not all of them are maxed, i also think decay of the gun is not back in the loot. I mean dmg/pec matter on maxed gun, even if you have better dmg/pec with unamed gun. Eco is NOT only dmg/pec.

I'm probably wrong, just my 2pecs.

Source : me, blabla with many ubers, dev note ( read hiden word )

As long as MA don't change the cost to play, loot will be the same, you can just improve your gameplay ( avoid mistakes ) and play with MU ( hard these day in hunting ). Luck is an important part of the game.

Hope it help.
 
Skaffen said:
Loot is based on 'minimum cost to kill' x loot multiplier (90% average)

If a mob has 400 hp, average dam/pec = 4 approx , then 90 pec loot average.

The 10% missing is a margin which is greater than any eco weapon - > 4.4 dam/pec limit to prevent 'real' gains, yet allow variance in player margins.
Click to expand...

Loot is based on 'minimum cost to kill'... , but is not the only component.

Just try doing 100 punies and seeing the normal loot range and then massively overkill a few of them.
While I agree there is a base payout, which also shows up in the fairly common 3.5x and above multiplier loots, if you waste 20 pecs on a kill shot on a puny you will get more than the normal loot spread. It is thus possible to get 6 pecs in a puny loot although it is more than "1x" and less than 3.5x. However, as you are wasting so much, the additional loot is not worthwhile.

Actually, as far as I can tell, mobs with 300 health will pay out up to 1.29 peds on normal eco-ish shooting, mobs with 30 health will pay up to 12.99 pecs. That is the baseline maximum for the non-multiplier loots, even though it costs less than that to kill them. Therefore the payout range of the lowest band is not 1x, but around 1.2-1.3x.
This is what I use to work out my eco relative to the mob, but I use very little armour, and don't know about higher mobs. My conclusion: mob loots are mainly based on their amount of health! Kill them cheap for a better average return!
 
SSN said:
thats why since mod loot mod merc user have less TT return, not all of them are maxed
Click to expand...

Sorry but talk about what you know not what you think or hear. This is a false statement. But I do agreed on the part about being maxed is very important.
 
Uncle Mo said:
Complete and utter bullshit!

Spending more PED to kill a mob has no effect on the output TT value of that mob's loot. You're just wasting PED. Mindark has flat out stated that eco is paramount. People need to stop spreading these ridiculous false theories that it's possible to 'pump PED' into a mob. These are probably the same idiots that think they can predict which slot machine in a casino will hit based on how warm it is, or where it's located or "someone was playing it for an hour and lost so it's 'ready to pay'". Then if they win on that slot machine then their theory MUST be valid. Of course if they lose then their shitty theory is still valid, it just didn't quite work that time.

I mean come on folks. If this were really true then everyone would be hunting punies with massive dps because, 'Why take the damage from the larger mobs?'.:confused:



On second thought if it wasn't for stupid people then Mindark and Casinos wouldn't be profitable. By all means, LET'S GAMBLE!!!!!!:yay::yay::yay::wtg::wtg::wtg::cool::cool::cool:
Click to expand...

Just came to say that the day after MA's famous statement I started hunting carabook with opalo and eamp-15 (0.964 eco). I dont remember my exact costs, but it was around 1k ped TT spent. I had 88% return.

I'm not saying this proves eco is not important. Maybe I would have had 300% return if I had used a101 amp.
 
The loot is 90% theory is total nonsense. Any theory that speaks of a %age of return is a fairy tale as there is no such thing valid for each and every avatar. Avatar A that does get usual 90% returns will measure that in tests. Avatar B that does not get a 90% return on a run will measure he does not. People fight over this since forever as both measure something else. The experience they get themselves and of friends. Those just aren't the same.

If each run would be 90% in the end 90% of 90% of 90% would be what? 65.61% yes and 90% of 90% of that would be 53.1441% yes. If you think loot is 90% over the total amount of peds ever spent as in cycled some heavy depositors may disagree with that strongly. It makes no sense.

All that is obvious is that the company needs to make money so a loss for the majority is hardcoded (TT wise). Plenty avatars seem unable to loot steady markup items like CLD tokens etc too. The ones that can loot this can loot multiple. Without spending near to what hardcore spenders do.

Some hunt uneco as hell by default and get out in profit. Some go max eco and get a loss in the end after all on the majority of their runs.

We all have our own profiles and histories in transactions. Some ppl are success stories for the company and can loot (relatively) big on practically anything. They are supposed to lure people in I feel.

The rest I believe are rewarded by a scheme attached to their profile. If that's set to stupidly low the only way to get some peds is doing wise investments, reselling and/or providing services. Or performing low-life actions.

Anyways the one going eco will be able to hunt for longer each run. Going that way doesn't mean you get better returns. Still getting just decay back in a hunt can happen like that. Even when you choose the eco way. You can buy an imk2 and have a better eco than the most of us. However if the loot is not assigned to you, you can be eco as you want to be and you will still loose. Do you think the guy next to you would have gotten the same loot on the mob you just killed? I don't think so.

These are my opinions based on my personal experiences in close to 7 years now. Naturally skilled my avatar and lost over 25k usd in the lootpool during this time. Getting a relatively decent sized loot is impossible. Best is to try see what works best for yourself. Other people's advises may not work for your avatar at all...
 
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