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Question: Eco, eco, eco fact or fiction?

Uncle Mo said:
Complete and utter bullshit!

...These are probably the same idiots that think they can predict which slot machine in a casino will hit based on how warm it is, or where it's located or "someone was playing it for an hour and lost so it's 'ready to pay'". Then if they win on that slot machine then their theory MUST be valid. Of course if they lose then their shitty theory is still valid, it just didn't quite work that time....
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Actually afaik slot machines do pay out on a certain amount of uses on average. It's not exactly the same time always of course, far from that even, but they are set so that the owner will not take a loss. That part shows a certain "rigged" state in a way. If it did not work like that there would not be so many machines out there. So yes after someone lost his ass on one it is likely to pay out something, but not enough to make the house loose on all that's put it. Could be it takes a lot more tries to make it pay out. All players totalled together will be in minus. Same as here.
 
HERE is an excellent tool by Scorch which provides cost-to-kill a mob using various weapons. Go there and toggle the BOND Theory for "possible" loot numbers.

Perhaps this will help in the various tests.

PS. Be sure to submit data to Scorch about missing mobs so the tool can be improved. :)
 
In my opinion, Eco shows its dominance in the long run because it helps you sustain the 'bad loot cycle' with the ped you saved every day in comparison to the non eco route. However, I find that most of the time that playing eco is much slower, and the items are very expensive, that I opt for something that is reasonable eco and allows me to have high turnover of ped and mob kills. I find that the loot cycle swings (imagine a sine curve) up and down with little 'windows' where globals are looted. The windows vary in duration, 1 sec to 10 sec +/- and the more you are able to kill and loot in this window, the higher the chance you will global. I noticed that whenever I global, I usually had a nice loot/ bigger loot than average before or after the global. Not saying this is true or has been tested, but I rather play the uneco, faster game than try to pinch pennies when hunting.

Don't take this the wrong way, eco players are definitely making the smarter choice, but it is not a play style that suits my needs. Each person has their own approach to this game and I prefer to cycle ped as fast as possible to hopefully win it big one day ;)
 
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Skaffen said:
Your theory is incorporated simply as the law of averages - it requires no personalisation, just as MA have stated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_averages
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ahhh lovely

i found the perfect loot pic

Lawoflargenumbersanimation2.gif
 
You pay for what you get...cheers!
 
Damage range

jetsina said:
Loot is based on 'minimum cost to kill'... , but is not the only component.

Just try doing 100 punies and seeing the normal loot range and then massively overkill a few of them.
While I agree there is a base payout, which also shows up in the fairly common 3.5x and above multiplier loots, if you waste 20 pecs on a kill shot on a puny you will get more than the normal loot spread. It is thus possible to get 6 pecs in a puny loot although it is more than "1x" and less than 3.5x. However, as you are wasting so much, the additional loot is not worthwhile.

Actually, as far as I can tell, mobs with 300 health will pay out up to 1.29 peds on normal eco-ish shooting, mobs with 30 health will pay up to 12.99 pecs. That is the baseline maximum for the non-multiplier loots, even though it costs less than that to kill them. Therefore the payout range of the lowest band is not 1x, but around 1.2-1.3x.
This is what I use to work out my eco relative to the mob, but I use very little armour, and don't know about higher mobs. My conclusion: mob loots are mainly based on their amount of health! Kill them cheap for a better average return!
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I didn't divide by 0.75 (Average damage range) in my initial post, actual mean damage is 0.75 x 4 pec so cost to kill is 3 dam/pec. Check the wiki, there are no weapons (except MA's) with an eco over 3.3.
 
Luckycharm said:
The loot is 90% theory is total nonsense. Any theory that speaks of a %age of return is a fairy tale as there is no such thing valid for each and every avatar. Avatar A that does get usual 90% returns will measure that in tests. Avatar B that does not get a 90% return on a run will measure he does not. People fight over this since forever as both measure something else. The experience they get themselves and of friends. Those just aren't the same.
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im sorry but it is/was a statistical proven fact up untill at least last year, it was slightly more than 90%, and of course not every avatar gets 90% TT return on every run, and over time in random system with a average return of 90%+ people will have different results. You can argue many things but people have to come with more than "i believe" when faced with a statistical analysis that proves this. Falcao, the person that did the original analysis and this later one had his original paper on the subject published in a (online) journal.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ng-data-2012&p=2991844&viewfull=1#post2991844
 
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eco is important (long term).
cost to kill is deciding factor in value of each individual loot event (short term).

If you're trying to roll over your bankroll in the most effective way, maximising potential profit, then you go eco.
If you're trying to ATH, then you decay as much as possible.
 
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Uncle Mo said:
Complete and utter bullshit!

Spending more PED to kill a mob has no effect on the output TT value of that mob's loot.
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You're ignorant and 100% wrong, stop making things up and spouting them as fact. Research, learn, then come back and apologise.
kthxbye
 
"Efficiency Matters - One issue that we have noticed being discussed quite frequently on community forums such as PlanetCalypsoForm.com is the concept of efficiency (sometimes referred to as economy), especially with regard to hunting tools such as ranged and melee weapons. A growing number of participants seem to have adopted an approach based on the theory that “economy does not matter”, a theory apparently based on (faulty) field tests or other experiments. We would like to state here very clearly that avatar skills and efficiency on the tools used do indeed matter a great deal, and have a very significant effect on overall returns in all Entropia Universe professions. Any playtest experiments, theorycrafting or other analysis you may be presented with which indicate or suggest that efficiency does not matter are thus flawed either in their conception, data collection, data analysis or conclusions."

From developer notes 2.


On my view, to be able to get more tickets (loot) with the same ped budget is always good!!! :cool:
 
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Uncle Mo said:
Complete and utter bullshit!

Spending more PED to kill a mob has no effect on the output TT value of that mob's loot. You're just wasting PED. Mindark has flat out stated that eco is paramount. People need to stop spreading these ridiculous false theories that it's possible to 'pump PED' into a mob. These are probably the same idiots that think they can predict which slot machine in a casino will hit based on how warm it is, or where it's located or "someone was playing it for an hour and lost so it's 'ready to pay'". Then if they win on that slot machine then their theory MUST be valid. Of course if they lose then their shitty theory is still valid, it just didn't quite work that time.

I mean come on folks. If this were really true then everyone would be hunting punies with massive dps because, 'Why take the damage from the larger mobs?'.:confused:



On second thought if it wasn't for stupid people then Mindark and Casinos wouldn't be profitable. By all means, LET'S GAMBLE!!!!!!:yay::yay::yay::wtg::wtg::wtg::cool::cool::cool:
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Mo, Mo, Mo how long have you been playing 2-3 years? If you think that cost to kill a mob has no effect on loot then why don't the uber players kill punys, Daikibas, Exarosaures or Combibos ? Think about what you are saying. Do you really think that anyone will kill any mob like Hogglos, Spiders or Despleators if they could get the same return with the other mobs I memtioned? There would be no reason to have large mobs if that were the case (In fact why not have just one mob with HP of 100 and weapons that do 10 dmg?). I have seen a post where MA says that maturity of mobs has little to do with return, that is, a young has about the same chance of getting the same loot as an Alpha or Prowler and I think that is true. My largest HOF was a 13K argo guardian and my second was 5K atrox old and third was an argo scout 3.5K. I don't meant to be snotty but you are just wrong.
Peace.
 
CozMoDan said:
I have seen a post where MA says that maturity of mobs has little to do with return, that is, a young has about the same chance of getting the same loot as an Alpha or Prowler and I think that is true
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Same return ≠ Same loot

Youngs do not loot the same stuff as big ones.
 
Neil Stockton said:
Same return ≠ Same loot

Youngs do not loot the same stuff as big ones.
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I agree that you get better stuff, but I am talking amount of loot. That being said when you look at ATHs for the mobs the big ones are on top of the list. I think MA was trying to say that normal loots are mostly the same for all but I don't think the big HOFs and ATHs are the same.
 
Loot actually is based on cost to kill, and should be... just not necessarily your cost to kill. First and foremost, you have to kill it, and loot it, or it's infinite% costly. Marco said "hunt what you are suited to by skills and equipment", "if your not doing well, change mobs and/or area", "if still not doing well, perhaps a short break". Loot is determined, almost always except rare circumstances, at the time the mob is looted. Killing 200 or 2k of one mob, gives you more chances than killing 10. If 2 people shoot the same type of mob, lots over long time, I believe avg loot be pretty much the same...but hofs are fickle.
 
Killahbee said:
Disagree here... You're saying loot will be 50 ped in both cases..
The system is based on cost to kill.. So more cost will give you higher (not better) loot.
90% of 50 ped is more then 90% of 40 ped.

this was proven by that test with opalo +eamp15 on levi with full team... too bad i can't find the thread right now...
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Profit said:
You're ignorant and 100% wrong, stop making things up and spouting them as fact. Research, learn, then come back and apologise.
kthxbye
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I have never seen a single shred of evidence to suggest that spending more to kill a mob (being uneco) will give any higher loot. So if you're going to call it fact, please provide some reliable source.



NOTE how the above (being uneco) is not the same as letting the mob regen and thus spending more because you have to remove more HP from the mob. Such experiments have been made, and they have nothing to do with DMG/PEC, but rather deal with the importance of DMG/SEC.
 
Best thing to do:

Find a balance between eco and speed.

The biggest ecofags wont have the best turnover, on the other side the biggest wasters wont survive, too.

If it takes u way too long to extract a claim or shoot a mob, then u lost a lot of time where you could cycle more PED, thus more turnover, always depends(adjust...).

Guess most important for example for me is time+effort, key is TT turnover.
 
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CozMoDan said:
It seems the consensus is your loot is based on the amount of decay that you have when hunting.
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eh.. i don't think most people believe that? :scratch2:
At least i don't. Killing a mob with the lowest cost able will always the best solution. But in some situation maybe it will be better to hunt a mob that a bit too hard for you, and cause you a lot of decay, because you can loot some items that have good markup and will compensate for the relative high cost of killing it.
 
I'm still waiting for someone to cycle lets say 25-50k ped with swine deluxe on a regular size mob...

By all the talks in threads like this, there is almost 0 risk of loosing huge amounts of peds. So why hasn't anyone done this? :) :) I think the answer is quite clear...
 
Konve said:
I have never seen a single shred of evidence to suggest that spending more to kill a mob (being uneco) will give any higher loot. So if you're going to call it fact, please provide some reliable source.



NOTE how the above (being uneco) is not the same as letting the mob regen and thus spending more because you have to remove more HP from the mob. Such experiments have been made, and they have nothing to do with DMG/PEC, but rather deal with the importance of DMG/SEC.
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So in other words, loot is based on damage done and not the cost to do it... so eco (dpp) matters but regenerated hp don't have the same value as original hp so dps matters.


The whole 90% loot thing is silly. Every time a serious discussion of that comes up, there are long-term hunting logs posted with much higher return than that.
 
After reading all the replies and going to the other posts and reading their comments I think I have a reasonable answer to the original question.

Let us consider that a player is hunting a mob that is at his/her max or very close. Also the weapon is also at the max that can be used. The armor and FAP are the best that can be afforded. Another words the player is hunting at his/her highest ability.

These two things are happening:
1. Player is using the most amount of ammo he can without being killed and be able to kill the mob.
2. Weapon, armor and FAP are decaying at the max amount by spending the time to kill the mob.

So I conclude this:
The player is doing all that can be done to meet the criteria to loot the max amount and should loot the most that can be looted for him/her, for that mob, over time.
 
Doer said:
So in other words, loot is based on damage done and not the cost to do it... so eco (dpp) matters but regenerated hp don't have the same value as original hp so dps matters.
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I still say loot is determined (influenced) by HP removed rather than DMG done (consider doing 100 DMG to a 10 HP mob, your loot is not likely to be that much larger).

And I did not say removed regenerated HP gives less loot, but of course it's possible.

Doer said:
The whole 90% loot thing is silly. Every time a serious discussion of that comes up, there are long-term hunting logs posted with much higher return than that.
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True. Or some one else claim they only get 85 % long term. Personally I only use 90 % as a staple while quickly calculating "is this activity worth doing?"

CozMoDan said:
After reading all the replies and going to the other posts and reading their comments I think I have a reasonable answer to the original question.

Let us consider that a player is hunting a mob that is at his/her max or very close. Also the weapon is also at the max that can be used. The armor and FAP are the best that can be afforded. Another words the player is hunting at his/her highest ability.

These two things are happening:
1. Player is using the most amount of ammo he can without being killed and be able to kill the mob.
2. Weapon, armor and FAP are decaying at the max amount by spending the time to kill the mob.

So I conclude this:
The player is doing all that can be done to meet the criteria to loot the max amount and should loot the most that can be looted for him/her, for that mob, over time.
Click to expand...

Bottom line is we are never like to know exactly how it works. The equation could include DMG, cost, regen, skill level, mob level, etc. etc.
 
Doer said:
The whole 90% loot thing is silly. Every time a serious discussion of that comes up, there are long-term hunting logs posted with much higher return than that.
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I wish.

My long term (2+ years) TT return on hunting is only 88.56%
Mining is 85.19%
 
Konve said:
I still say loot is determined (influenced) by HP removed rather than DMG done (consider doing 100 DMG to a 10 HP mob, your loot is not likely to be that much larger).
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That's more specifically what i meant, but there is some indication overkill isn't completely wasted...

And I did not say removed regenerated HP gives less loot, but of course it's possible.
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That was the conclusion of Jimmy B's experiment iirc. I thought that's the one you were referring to.

I imagine that overkill is treated the same way --> compensated, but not as much as normal mob hp removed.


True. Or some one else claim they only get 85 % long term. Personally I only use 90 % as a staple while quickly calculating "is this activity worth doing?"

Bottom line is we are never like to know exactly how it works. The equation could include DMG, cost, regen, skill level, mob level, etc. etc.
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Agreed.

JohnCapital said:
I wish.

My long term (2+ years) TT return on hunting is only 88.56%
Mining is 85.19%
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Ouch. May i ask what your average effective dpp was, and what % defensive costs you incurred?

I prepared a log spreadsheet for Skippie and use one myself. He (maxed, using either imk2 or mm) had very high 9x% tt returns over a large output, i have an average tt return since i started of over 90% but i only have the specific numbers for the last year in front of me right now:

total tt output (offensive and defensive, vast majority hunting): 108.7 kPEDs
total tt return: 105.1 kPEDs
97%

This is with actual dpp of ~2.87 (including defensive costs -- i did the actual calculations for some of the bigger missions using chat logs and reported them in my blog entries e.g. here), and "book" weapon dpp of ~2.95.

What has changed a lot since 2007 etc. is that my markup was only 1.6 kPEDs for that 109 kPED output, or about 1%, so my overall return for this last year is < 100%.
 
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Art Jennifer said:
Be more eco then :D
Eco includes MV/Mu btw
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Please learn to not ASSume things. Try asking questions as Doer has before reaching conclusions.

Doer said:
Ouch. May i ask what your average effective dpp was, and what % defensive costs you incurred?
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Sure. I'll give you my 2012 hunting numbers, as they were more agreeable than 2011.
2012 was almost exclusively using P5a +A104. (+ occasional finishers)
Number below are all TT, no MU factored into these numbers. Those are a different part of my spreadsheets.
However, for the record, guns were "home crafted" by my wife, Winterhart, using materials bought in bulk under market price.

Total Spent = 54,864.22
Loot = 49,199.10
Weapon = 4,398.45
Ammo = 39,723.42
Amp = 9,210.16
Scope/Sight = 17.88
Enhancers = 0.40
Armor = 1,208.95
Fap = 250.74
Refiner = 20.01
Transport = 34.21 (tp chips/implant/ME + oil for vehicles)

Total TT return = 89.67%
Weapon only = 53,332.03 (92.25%)
Defense (armor+fap) = 1,459.69 (2.96%)

Edit: just cause I can
Total MU bought = 1,301.41
Total MU from selling things (after auction fees) = 5,310.63
(Note, these last two numbers are MU only, TT is taken out.)

If you can find what big mistake(s) I made, I'd appreciate it.
Oh, and yes, I do account for looted ammo and it is factored into total loot. Simple method: Take exactly enough to use P5a+2x A104. When both amps are broke, all other ammo is looted. (When circumstances don't allow that method, I take before/after TT of weapons/amps and do the math to determine realistic ammo usage.)
 
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Art Jennifer said:
Eco includes MV/Mu btw
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lol

MU is not directly influenced by game mechanic and thats what this thread is about..

ffs



..ooops just saw that john replied to that.

well my general hunting/skilling is probably lower then 90% as well

but as others we dont have access to 2.9 maxxed weapons unless in the 5 dps range lol

i stopped tracking hunting precisely with all the L crap its just too frustating..
 
il said:
MU is not directly influenced by game mechanic and thats what this thread is about..
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In fairness to Art, I believe he meant it in the way most of us understand it. That being: paying too high MU on our (L) gear can ruin any potential for savings they offer.

I don't believe he was saying that TT returns factor in what MU we pay for things.
 
Art Jennifer said:
loot being based on cost to kill makes no sense. whatso ever
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Because it isn't based on cost to kill it doesn't mean that what is based upon isn't influenced by cost to kill.

Correlation isn't causation, so you are right.

But they still can have their illusions :yup:
 
JohnCapital said:
Please learn to not ASSume things. Try asking questions as Doer has before reaching conclusions.
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I should not ASSume, as you saidm but you posted your stats and there are already a few issues that could cause you not to be ASS "eco" your and arse and I get why people hate you, think you are.


Edit: Sorry I think YOUR AN ASS who is power hungry, some typo in there? Will Dyck them later



il said:
lol

MU is not directly influenced by game mechanic and thats what this thread is about..

ffs

.
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Yes, but being eco involes all parts of the system, you can not try to talk about one thing and leave other parts out.

Thats like having an ice cream without the cream.
 
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