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  1. #1
    Stalker Falagor's Avatar
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    Tutorial: how to properly test Mindforce chips

    Since there is a lot of out of date or missleading info on entroepdia in mindforce chips section i have decided to make tutorial how to properly test decay on chips.

    First thing you should read is this tutorial about how properly test decay in general (on any item): <click>

    -----------------

    If you know how properly decay test (please only use very accurate methods - most avaible for everyone is fruit decay test) now you can properly decay test chip decay.

    It is not that difficult of course but yet - many players have doubts or do it wrong for some reason.

    The most important thing you need to remember is: you have to decay test both chip and implant decay and consider true value of chip decay as sum of them.

    So just testing chip decay is not enough.
    Testing chip decay and calculating its decay as 100/98 (for 2% absorbtion implants) of tested value is not accurate either! (espetially with nanochips).

    Only good way of testing it is by decay testing both chip and implant decay. Reason for this is that implant is not absorbing exactly 2% for all chips. From my tests value absorbed is closesed rounded down value to 5th digit of absorbtion.
    Example on this matter:
    Lacerating Attack Nanochip XI (L) with 2% absorbtion implant - fruit decay test ->
    • chip decays 0.498pec
    • implant decays 0.010pec

    Notice that chip has decayed 98.03149...% value,
    while implant decayed 1.96850...% value

    As you can see its not 2% but slightly less. Obviously it is different value for each chip (for all chips i have tested its always little under 2%)

    After using the chip exactly 1000 times the decay on chip + implant is exactly 5.08ped - so the fruit test method is 100% accurate as you can see and the system does not round randomly up or down to make "correction" to get actual 2% absorbtion.

    -----------------

    So now when you know this the test is obvious:

    If the chip and implant are full TT value do this:
    step 1: use the chip once (shoot at mob, heal yoruself etc)
    step 2: get implant inserter from TT and unequip your implant (it costs exactly 0.01ped to do so)
    step 3: do decay test on both chip and implant
    step 4: note down actual chip decay as sum of those two tested values
    step 5: don't forget to put your implant back (it also costs exactly 0.01ped)

    If the chip or implant is not full TT value: obviously you need to decay test it before proceding to step 1 (so you will have exact starting value accurate to 5th digit after coma). And after test count difference between starting and final TT values.

    -----------------

    I really hope this will help putting proper values on Entropedia.info in mindforce section and help people to calculate economy of mindforce in more accurate way.

    Just an information related to the mindforce section on Entropedia.info: there are many problems with decay information on implants and many other problems connected with proper eco calcualtions in mindforce. For more info read here: <click>

    Disclaimer:
    Of couse easy solution for ALL of those problems would be MA putting decay information in item description!
    Please notice that MA actually already gives this decay information to players on some items. For example when describing item info of prizes (Hedoc Mayhem faps, Arso III TEN edition). So i really do not understand why we still do not have this information already in game in the item description - is this really that hard? If you think this would help a lot and improve gameplay - please write support about this - the more we write the more there are the chances they will act.

    Falagor

  2. #2
    Stalker il's Avatar
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    cheers i will look into it
    Vive la Resistance!
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus Eriksson|MA - Balancing Manager
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    I'm listening.

  3. #3
    Why so complicated?

    Smallest value in the game is 0.001 PEC.

    For your example this leads to:
    98%: 0.498
    02%: 0.010163...

    100%: 0.508163...

    as smallest value is 0.001 it seems the 163... part is cut off.

    What we do not know: is it really cut off or rounded?

    For example
    98%:0.515
    02%:0.10510...

    100%:0.525510...
    Cut off: 0.525
    Rounded: 0.526


    This leads to a formular that will work for every implant:

    complete_decay = decay_of_chip + decay_of_chip * implant_detoriation / ( 100 - implant_detoriation )



    It did not test this formular with real chip values. I just used my math skills xD

  4. #4
    Stalker Falagor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlooe View Post
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    Why so complicated?

    Smallest value in the game is 0.001 PEC.

    For your example this leads to:
    98%: 0.498
    02%: 0.010163...

    100%: 0.508163...

    as smallest value is 0.001 it seems the 163... part is cut off.

    What we do not know: is it really cut off or rounded?

    For example
    98%:0.515
    02%:0.10510...

    100%:0.525510...
    Cut off: 0.525
    Rounded: 0.526


    This leads to a formular that will work for every implant:

    complete_decay = decay_of_chip + decay_of_chip * implant_detoriation / ( 100 - implant_detoriation )



    It did not test this formular with real chip values. I just used my math skills xD
    You missed the point of this tutorial...

    there are still people who actually put only chip decay value in entropedia - this obviously is false information and far from true. This tutorial is to point out that both chip and implant decay should be included .

    As you are right that we could count chip decay then try to count the implant decay based only on that and round it up/down but as you noticed there is no 100% sure it will give actually proper value for every chip. I know that mayby for some 0.001pec value is no big difference - yet i do not like lack of accuracy . Of course if we know for sure that i.e. it is always rounded down then we can use formula you have mentioned .

    Falagor

  5. #5
    Marauder sitram's Avatar
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    Decay on chip is enough if all implanters absorb same amount of decay.

    You put the chip decay in entropedia and the formula to calculate the eco takes into account the implanters absorb decay of 2% thus giving the real eco.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sitram View Post
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    Decay on chip is enough if all implanters absorb same amount of decay.

    You put the chip decay in entropedia and the formula to calculate the eco takes into account the implanters absorb decay of 2% thus giving the real eco.
    Which they don't. From what I have seen, the old UL ones absorb 2% of the decay, the (L) ones absorb 10% of the decay. So if you are using a high % MU chip then you would want to use an (L) implant ideally to reduce the market cost of your chip per use. Of course when everyone loots 50 MF chips a week and the market value is 103% at best on all MF chips there is not a massive benefit of using an (L) implant.

  7. #7
    Stalker Falagor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sitram View Post
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    Decay on chip is enough if all implanters absorb same amount of decay.

    You put the chip decay in entropedia and the formula to calculate the eco takes into account the implanters absorb decay of 2% thus giving the real eco.
    As you said - "if" ...

    there are implants that have different amount of absorbtion now (2%, 10% and 20%).

    And also - the construction of the Entropedia.info site is wrong too at the moment... whole implant section (implant decay information, and eco counted based on it both in attack and healing section) is still the old way before the implant worked - so it is wrongly caluculated and it needs small reconstruction of the site to work properly. This is something i have mentioned at bottom of my first post with a link to a thread i have made long time ago and there is still no fix by entropedia admin. Quote of the part so you can go and read about it...
    (...)
    Just an information related to the mindforce section on Entropedia.info: there are many problems with decay information on implants and many other problems connected with proper eco calcualtions in mindforce. For more info read here:
    <click>
    (...)
    So even if there was just 2% absorbotion implant the site is still countign eco in wrong manner.
    It is nearly one year since change to implants has been made and as you can see absolutly no response by entropiawiki.com admins/constructors.

    ----------

    I hope this proves that this thread was necesery .

    @edit:
    I hope MA will stop advertise Entropedia.info as valid source of information (they did that in one of the Dev notes). Obviously it is good site but maintained by users - anyone can put ANY info there and also anyone can remove any info from there. Basicly i treat it more like a source of pre-calculation or something that would give me general knowledge information but it may need verification and i know info there can be (and in many cases is) wrong.

    Falagor
    Last edited by Falagor; 05-22-2013 at 10:25.

  8. #8
    You are right. We have to put the full decay on entropedia.

    With chip decay you have to know if it was 2/98, 10/90 or 20/80.

    I have played around with a few numbers.
    I hope they do cut off and not rounding

    100%:0,425
    098%:0,4165
    002%:0,0085

    rounded:
    098%:0,417
    002%:0,009
    100%:0,426

    cut off:
    098%:0,416
    002%:0,008
    100%:0,424

    same number with 20%:
    090%:0,340
    010%:0,085

    no rounding needed thus:
    100%:0,425


    I am not 100% sure but to have accurate full decay you have to do the decay test with every implant detoriation available.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falagor View Post
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    @edit:
    I hope MA will stop advertise Entropedia.info as valid source of information (they did that in one of the Dev notes). Obviously it is good site but maintained by users - anyone can put ANY info there and also anyone can remove any info from there. Basicly i treat it more like a source of pre-calculation or something that would give me general knowledge information but it may need verification and i know info there can be (and in many cases is) wrong.

    Falagor
    I hope they will not, Entropedia is a valuable source of information for players of all levels, as long as they understand what a wiki is. You should probably do some research on what a wiki is. I'll put a link in the -rep for you.

    Do you by any chance work for Scametrics and are trying to get your MA support more prioritized?

    Please continue to contribute confirmed accurate info to entropedia, if in doubt, leave it out.

  10. #10
    Stalker Falagor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uniqu3 View Post
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    I hope they will not, Entropedia is a valuable source of information for players of all levels, as long as they understand what a wiki is. You should probably do some research on what a wiki is. I'll put a link in the -rep for you.

    Do you by any chance work for Scametrics and are trying to get your MA support more prioritized?
    First of all i know what wiki means and i understand how it is constructed. To continue - i have nothing against Entropedia.info i have much against MA advertising entropiawiki.com as valid source of information. Here is link to dev notes when they actually did that: <click>

    A second and very important part of efficient hunting is to consider the relative cost of using a particular weapon, often referred to as weapon economy, usually measured as damage per PEC. This measures how efficiently, in terms of weapon decay and ammo consumption, a weapon produces each point of damage. An avatar will enjoy much better overall hunting results over time when using weapons with higher damage per pec. Many community websites, such as
    www.entropiawiki.com, offer detailed statistics on the economy of nearly all the various weapons available in Entropia Universe. The MindArk development team is also considering including more detailed economy statistics on the item information panel in an upcoming release to improve the availability of such information.


    Information on entropedia is missleading like i sad before and should NOT be advertised by creators of the game as valid source of information. Answer why:
    • players put a lot of information on the site (with much effort)
    • then MA dev team decides that stats on some of the items must be adjusted (which happened few times already)
    • the changes often are not made public (like "we changed decay on item A from X to Y")
    • MA does not change information on the entropedia by themselves and players often have no idea what has been changed.

    This leads to stuation that there is a lot of missleading and false information on the site. If there was a team on MA side that would fix the construction of the site and edit canged information they could actually adverstise the site as good source (because they would have at least some controll over information there).

    So i think you totally missunderstood what i said. I said nothgin about "removing" entropedia but i said about not advertising entropedia as valid info by MA.

    ----

    Answering your question abou Scametrics. I guess you ment Sometrics. And no i do not have any connections with them. I actually barely know what actions they take an only heard some rumors about players not getting their peds or soemthing like that (so my knowledge here is less than common players knowledge).
    [@edit:]
    i am not really sure what you ment by asking this question? And how is this connected to entropedia? I think you missjudged what i wrote then came to wrong conclusions or something like that - i am not sure.
    [end @edit:]

    Quote Originally Posted by Uniqu3 View Post
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    Please continue to contribute confirmed accurate info to entropedia, if in doubt, leave it out.
    Belive me that i do no harm to entropedia and i try to put as much valid info there as i can (good example is creating this thread about chips decay). But i know that there are situations where people do bad things there. For example - removing certain loot information from creature drops or removing areas where certain creautres appear. And reason why they do it is becasue they do not want others to know from what mobs valuable items drop or where to find them.

    This is clearly sabotage action and done on purpose.

    If there are people who do that what defends from them putting false information on certain weapons (decay) just to increase value on those items (becasue they want to sell them). Answer is - nothing. Of couse there are good players who will try and watch over this things happening (Serica comes as good example of "guardian angel") but some info might slip in anyway.

    Now think again if MA advertising this site is actually good thing. Without exact decay info in item descriptions players have no chance of verification information there before buying/testing the item by themselves.

    Falagor
    Last edited by Falagor; 05-22-2013 at 12:43.

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