about amp's eco on entropedia

ntelinatsos

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Stelios AKALYPTOS ntelinatsos
Hi guys, recently i noticed that on entropiawiki.com they calculate weapon's eco with their average dmg but amp's eco with their max dmg..

so, do you think that's correct?

does MA have to change amp's dmg message and add it like weapons?
(like the example below)

evil amp:

Damage Penetration: 33
Damage Impact: 3
Damage on weapon: 18-36

so, what do you think?
 
Hi guys, recently i noticed that on entropiawiki.com they calculate weapon's eco with their average dmg but amp's eco with their max dmg..

so, do you think that's correct?

does MA have to change amp's dmg message and add it like weapons?
(like the example below)

evil amp:

Damage Penetration: 33
Damage Impact: 3
Damage on weapon: 18-36

so, what do you think?

no, because now the dmg gets added to the gun and THEN average gets chosen. if they do 18-36 and add the average, you're getting 27 added instead of 36.
 
no, because now the dmg gets added to the gun and THEN average gets chosen. if they do 18-36 and add the average, you're getting 27 added instead of 36.

when i add my evil (36 dmg) to my svempa x1 (39-78), my weapon doesn't go 75-114 dmg (added 36 dmg in both min and max) but it goes 57-114 dmg (add 18 in min and 36 in max)..

x1 say it does 68 pen, 10 imp (total 78) and it say also that does 39-78 dmg,

evil say it does 33 pen and 3 imp (total 36) and mean that's the max dmg it add in a weapon (why doesn't say 18-36 dmg also like the weapons?)

so when you calculate the eco on weapon you calculate it by the average dmg it does ( [(39+78)/2]/cost = eco..)

but you calculate the eco on the extra dmg you add in that weapon from your amp in amp's max dmg (36/cost = eco?) instead of the average dmg it give to that weapon? ( [(18+36)/2]/cost = correct eco)

i think that's totaly wrong
 
yes but see what happens if you calculate eco just for amp now that it's 18-36


it would have to be 27-54 to balance it back to current eco, or lower cost per click...
 
yes but see what happens if you calculate eco just for amp now that it's 18-36


it would have to be 27-54 to balance it back to current eco, or lower cost per click...

I think that's his point. If you look at amp alone, it reports dmg/pec based on the max damage not the average damage as it does with guns. He is correct, this should be updated in Wiki to use average damage when reporting dmg/pec of amps. The number being reported now is a decent indicator when comparing amp to amp, but not a relevant number when talking about real eco of the amp so you can compare to similar number on the gun alone (so you can answer the question is the amp eco greater or less than the gun I want to put it on, for example).

And while you are at it, use the same Hit/Miss % that the guns use to calc dmg/pec, rather than assume 100% hit rate as it does now for amps alone so we really are comparing apples to apples.

The right thing is happening when you attach amps to guns though, uses average dmg of both the gun and the amp to calculate dmg/pec.
 
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The evil amp doesn't do 18-36 damage, it doesn't have an 8% miss ratio and it doesn't have a 2% crit rate (or whatever the numbers are) - it's effectiveness is entirely based upon the weapon you put it on, and therefore you shouldn't put restrictions on it's stats.

It does 36 max damage and that is all.
 
The evil amp doesn't do 18-36 damage, it doesn't have an 8% miss ratio and it doesn't have a 2% crit rate (or whatever the numbers are) - it's effectiveness is entirely based upon the weapon you put it on, and therefore you shouldn't put restrictions on it's stats.

It does 36 max damage and that is all.

WRONG! AMP do betweeen 18 and 36! And if u can use amp without gun show me that! if mob evades shot amp will decay too! If u crit mob or ppl damage from amp will be double too!
~
Or i'm wrong?
 
The amp has a max damage of 36, when you put it on a weapon it is restricted by the stats of the weapon.

If the weapon has a 50-100% spread and 72+dam then the amp will be restricted to 18-36

If the weapon has a 50-100% spread and 70 max damage then the amp is restricted to 17.5-35

If MA create a weapon with 75-100% spread then the amp will do 27-36



The only thing we can say for certain about the amp is that it has a maximum potential damage of 36.
 
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i don't get why you involve crit and miss chances to eco on amps..

crit/miss chances are involved in weapon's eco? NO.. so why you involve it in amp's eco?

weapon's eco is the average dmg / cost without calculate any miss/crit chances..

so, i'm trying to find the correct eco on amps without calculate any miss/crit chances too..
 
This is wrong, the amp will do 17.5 to 35 then, other than that i agree with Slither, there is no point in restricting the stats on amps because you need to calculate with weapon to get the correct damage interval, if you put the amp on a old school weapon you dont max you will get min damage after what your skills are, also hit rate is diffrent than on maxed sib weapons then.

If the weapon has a 50-100% spread and 70 max damage then the amp is restricted to 17-34
 
i corrected that toad, basic stupid error.
 
This is wrong, the amp will do 17.5 to 35 then, other than that i agree with Slither, there is no point in restricting the stats on amps because you need to calculate with weapon to get the correct damage interval, if you put the amp on a old school weapon you dont max you will get min damage after what your skills are, also hit rate is diffrent than on maxed sib weapons then.

for ppls that wanna add amps in weapons that amp hasn't it's max efficiency, i don't care..

if you want to add evil amp on cb5, do it, but don't say that the evil amp doesn't have it's eco because you choosed to add it in a wrong weapon.. when i speak about evil's eco, i mean if you add it in a weapon that does at least 36-72 dmg of course..

so, about the "there is no point in restricting the stats on amps because you need to calculate with weapon to get the correct damage interval (or eco)" i'll say that of course when you merge two items with differend eco you'll get a differend eco as a result but that doesn't mean that amp's eco doesn't matter, because it's differend to add in the same weapon one amp that has 3 eco and one other that has 3.2 for example..

so the amp's eco matter..
 
i don't get why you involve crit and miss chances to eco on amps..

crit/miss chances are involved in weapon's eco? NO.. so why you involve it in amp's eco?

weapon's eco is the average dmg / cost without calculate any miss/crit chances..

so, i'm trying to find the correct eco on amps without calculate any miss/crit chances too..

its hard to make some ppl understand if u miss or mob evades shot, AMP WILL DECAY AND U WILL HAVE 0 damage done and that matters for eco!

Its not hard to understand that!
 
i tried to make an example with calytrek mkI but i noticed that on entropiawiki.com the eco on this weapon (and on all other weapons) aren't by just calculate the average dmg / cost.. or the calytrek would had [(31+62)/2]/ 14.93 (cost) = 3.114 eco

but in entropedia say it has 2.881 eco.. so i don't know what other they calculate to find the real eco on these weapon...

thought in entropedia, weapon's eco are without calculate miss/crit chances..
 
yeah, i think wiki does stuff that there's no hard facts about like misses and crits. There's data from tests on those things but we don't know for certain what the exact numbers are so i always use the old system and uncheck the 'effective damage' box.

99% of the time you only need to know the relative damage between weapons you max, so I don't know why people insist on using complex systems when a basic max damage eco system does the job.
 
but in entropedia say it has 2.881 eco.. so i don't know what other they calculate to find the real eco on these weapon...

thought in entropedia, weapon's eco are without calculate miss/crit chances..

if you hover over the "Dmg/PEC" it shows "(Effective) Damage/PEC". it is accounting for the damage range, misses and crits. i was sure that when you click on the weapon it shows the literal one shot stats, just as it does for amps. i say was because i dont see the old ~4 dmg/pec numbers. i also notice now there are differences between the listed Effective Dmg/pec and the individual specification data, the latter being 0.005-0.006 lower, so there are two seperate values being stored or calculated :scratch:
 
i tried to make an example with calytrek mkI but i noticed that on entropiawiki.com the eco on this weapon (and on all other weapons) aren't by just calculate the average dmg / cost.. or the calytrek would had [(31+62)/2]/ 14.93 (cost) = 3.114 eco

but in entropedia say it has 2.881 eco.. so i don't know what other they calculate to find the real eco on these weapon...

thought in entropedia, weapon's eco are without calculate miss/crit chances..

The calculations in entropedia ARE using miss/crit information for the gun, or at least it appears to be using some approximation of it. As you figured out yourself, it doesn't calculate to the numbers you expected if you JUST use average damage. I don't know the exact equation, but it looks like it is something like assuming 90-92% hit and 2% crit. I'd have to crunch some numbers to give you a better guess.

As for the comments about not putting restrictions on the amps as it is dependent on what gun you use, I understand what you are saying, but we already make similar assumptions on the guns by default (assumes someone is maxed on the gun). All we are talking about changing is the dmg/pec column in the amp listings which would be a LOT more relevant if we made the assumptions that it will be put on a gun that does 50%-100% damage and has at least double the amp dmg so it can take advantage of the full amp damage. Reporting amp dmg/pec as it is now (full damage/(decay+ammo used)) is completely useless and reports a number that has no connection to reality. At least if you make the "restrictions" above you get a number in dmg/pec column which is useful to 95% of the users. If you are putting the amp on a gun that has something other than 50%-100% damage range or less than full use of the amp it will still show up in the weapons chart correctly when you select that specific combination under the weapons listing.

And just to be clear, I'm not talking about a change to the "what amp do you want to put on this/these guns" drop down menu in the weapons chart. That should still list the max damage of course. The only stat I'm (and I believe the OP is) suggesting should be changed is in the Weapons Attachments -> Amps chart where it lists the dmg/pec for all amps and now currently is displaying the old 4.xx range dmg/pec meaningless numbers.
 
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i tried to make an example with calytrek mkI but i noticed that on entropiawiki.com the eco on this weapon (and on all other weapons) aren't by just calculate the average dmg / cost.. or the calytrek would had [(31+62)/2]/ 14.93 (cost) = 3.114 eco

but in entropedia say it has 2.881 eco.. so i don't know what other they calculate to find the real eco on these weapon...

thought in entropedia, weapon's eco are without calculate miss/crit chances..

The Weapon Attachments chart (http://www.entropiawiki.com/Chart.aspx?chart=Attachment) shows stats based on Max Damage.
Note1: The function of an amp is to increase the max damage of a weapon. It's the weapon that has the 50%-100% spread of damage, not the amp per se. As an example, if the amp were attached to a weapon that had a different spread, the weapon would be what affected the damage spread, not the amp.
Note2: As an amp can't be used without being added to a weapon anyway, the dpp is only useful as a comparison with other amps. The relative effectiveness will be exactly the same, regardless of whether the dpp is based on maxed damage or average damage. Questions of over-amping are irrelevant until a weapon+amp combo is chosen, which is outside the scope of the Weapons Attachment chart.

For the Weapons chart (http://www.entropiawiki.com/Chart.aspx?chart=Weapon) the default setting is to show Effective Damage. (If you want it to show Max Damage, just untick the Effective Damage box in the Settings near the top of the page)

As the text at the top of that page says:
Effective damage is based on average damage and is corrected for the hit rate of a maxed weapon.

Adding an amp to a weapon using the Settings section on that page will give the Effective Damage for [Weapon+Amp] combo.
 
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