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possible return formula in development

C

cyrano

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Joined
Aug 12, 2013
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7
well long story short mining has a simple formula for returns based on decay
* (finder decay + amp decay +probe cost for the particular find)*10/3


so it got me to thinking what if hunting had a similar formula for returns something along the lines of

((weapon decay *shots fired)+(amp decay*shots fired)+ enhancer decay +(hp of mob/300*(1+miss rate)))*(hp of mob/hpregen of mob)

anything in red is unverified but im hoping to narrow down the list. The only thing I'm sure of is the hp of mob/300 * miss rate thing
that i've verified my self with 23000 kills of halix and various other arkadian mobs
 
nice try!!! post some results when u get to 1.000.000 halix...
 
Nalia said:
+1 ... even 1 M seems low
Click to expand...

Shhh, trying to get him to stay as long as possible in EU! That's why I used "some results", will ask for more extensive testing when he gets to 1M :D
 
Sissi said:
Shhh, trying to get him to stay as long as possible in EU! That's why I used "some results", will ask for more extensive testing when he gets to 1M :D
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Why would you want him to stay in EU ? I thought it was an MA employee trying to develop an hunting loot algo cause he messed up badly the original one.
 
if any one has any more extensive info or verifications it would be appreciated
currently i planned on testing the theory in reverse
starting with hp/hpregen
id compare two mobs regen ratios
.17% and 1%
i was thinking 50k kills on allophly young which each have a 1% hp regen rate
and 50k kills of longu old which has a regen rate of .17%
each have 500 hp exactly and on a good day i could kill 3600 of either if its right the difference in loot should be .83%
 
The problem is you can't do this sort of statistics without more samples. And I don't mean of the same mob. You need to hunt a lot of different mobs with different equipment (and possibly the same mob with different equipment). And always killing a lot (~10000) of mobs with each setup to get a satisfying return %. And then it's made even harder because you need to calculate your average over-kill as well as keeping track of how much armor/FAP decay you had.

It's a huge undertaking that no one can do alone.

And suddenly you hit a loot multiplier of 10k and your data goes nuts.


As for the function, I'm betting it looks something more like (damage done to the mob)*(weapon DPP-index number)*(enhancer index)*(mob index number)+(mob dmg to your armor)*(armor enhancer index)*(mob damage-index number)+(random hamster cake divided by zero).
 
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for maxed items without armor decay:
(item decay+attachment decay)*~0.90*loot multipliers
 
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I have a more precise formula (I think):

Mob HP * MA constant * loot multiplier

There's a long thread somewhere about the loot multiplier, and though not 100% accurate, there's a lot of test and other things supporting it.
 
PaulCrystal said:
for maxed items without armor decay:
(item decay+attachment decay)*~0.90*loot multipliers
Click to expand...

that formula would mean everyone who hunts with those 1 ped tt guns with high MU would do terrible, and it seems thats not the case, so instead of decay id like to insert dmg done to mob.
 
cyrano said:
((weapon decay *shots fired)+(amp decay*shots fired)+ enhancer decay +(hp of mob/300*(1+miss rate)))*(hp of mob/hpregen of mob)
Click to expand...
A lot of the formula is based purely on assumptions, which is fine.
But a lot of the variables you introduce create relationsships that are questionable. If you only test it on one mob, then these stay relatively static and nothing bad happens.
What you need to do is disallow these to remain static, be variables instead of constants, and see what happens. It would weed out a lot of things that feels just grabbed from thin air.

ermik said:
that formula would mean everyone who hunts with those 1 ped tt guns with high MU would do terrible, and it seems thats not the case, so instead of decay id like to insert dmg done to mob.
Click to expand...
If it was based on damage and not decay, then returns would be relatively static.
My low dmg/pec setup disagrees with that.
 
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IMO

There should be some provision for skill in there somewhere somehow. The mechanic of skills is what keeps (and was used to prove to) regulators from calling this a gamble....which it would be if it were a simple input/output formula without avatar specific variables that directly influence return.
 
Cerberus said:
If it was based on damage and not decay, then returns would be relatively static.
My low dmg/pec setup disagrees with that.
Click to expand...

Not more then if it was based on decay (by which I guess you mean cost). But it can't be based on cost alone. Because of the 1 PED TT items, as mentioned before.

Sure. Mindark could circumvent the problem by having a unique loot-altering stat for each weapon. But why would they go through all that hassle, when the problem disappears if you make loot depend on damage received instead of the actual cost to deal the same damage? It would also be a larger work load on the servers to make loot depend on the cost instead of dmg. A single formula could also be used for all mobs without altering the code.

forgo said:
IMO

There should be some provision for skill in there somewhere somehow. The mechanic of skills is what keeps (and was used to prove to) regulators from calling this a gamble....which it would be if it were a simple input/output formula without avatar specific variables that directly influence return.
Click to expand...

There is. But it's indirect, because skills allow you to use different items.
 
Konve said:
Not more then if it was based on decay (by which I guess you mean cost). But it can't be based on cost alone. Because of the 1 PED TT items, as mentioned before.
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Yes I meant cost. Just got confused.

What's wrong with 1 PED items? I went through them on Entropedia and they all have resonable damage/pec.
The only difference is that they have low decay but make it up in ammo requirement. You're still spitting out the same amount of pec/dmg with an MM rifle as you do with a regular. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding; there's quite a strong possibility of that.
 
Cerberus said:
Yes I meant cost. Just got confused.

What's wrong with 1 PED items? I went through them on Entropedia and they all have resonable damage/pec.
The only difference is that they have low decay but make it up in ammo requirement. You're still spitting out the same amount of pec/dmg with an MM rifle as you do with a regular. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding; there's quite a strong possibility of that.
Click to expand...

Yep. Never mind. I was just having a brain fart.
 
forgo said:
There should be some provision for skill in there somewhere somehow. The mechanic of skills is what keeps (and was used to prove to) regulators from calling this a gamble.
Click to expand...

firstly the skill indirectly effects the weapons used and other abilities (evade, HP etc). secondly a skill value wouldnt alter anything regulators would be concerned with. it would only act as an adjustment to the odds. like playing easy/medium/hard but much finer graduations. regulators would be observing skill in terms of actual real world interaction (movement, positioning, mob and weapon selection, technique etc)
 
aridash said:
firstly the skill indirectly effects the weapons used and other abilities (evade, HP etc). secondly a skill value wouldnt alter anything regulators would be concerned with. it would only act as an adjustment to the odds. like playing easy/medium/hard but much finer graduations. regulators would be observing skill in terms of actual real world interaction (movement, positioning, mob and weapon selection, technique etc)
Click to expand...

If we had 5 skills total in the game I might believe that skills will not have any effect on TT Return....
The TT returns definately without a doubt change as skill grows. Crafting is one profession you can see this clearly.

Skill value(that is the skill point value, not ped value) directly alters your return rate.....the more you "invest" or "work" your skill, the more it affects what can be looted (loot tables), how often (cycles), and by what modifiers (loot multipliers).

We just dont see these numbers as clear as when they were used to prove the mechanic to regulators, which went under NDA. (2005 ish I believe is when I read about it, no clue where it was published)
And they aren't going to be as noticable as we would like...but it is there to some degree and keeps MA from being considered a consumer scam in the eyes of the authorities.

They essentially had to prove that an avatar of someone with alot of skill was going to have a marked advantage over those without, using the same equipment.

Skill points are the all important division between a random odds based game(gambling) to a calculated return based game.(player altered result)
 
Cerberus said:
Yes I meant cost. Just got confused.

What's wrong with 1 PED items? I went through them on Entropedia and they all have resonable damage/pec.
The only difference is that they have low decay but make it up in ammo requirement. You're still spitting out the same amount of pec/dmg with an MM rifle as you do with a regular. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding; there's quite a strong possibility of that.
Click to expand...

I agree, im shifting between dmg and tt all the time.

tt, would make sense from a programmers view, less hassle converting dmg done into a tt value before multiplier is added.

Dmg would make sense from a dmg/pec pov, but maybe the dmg/pec role has been greatley overestimated.
You still get to loot more mobs with better dmg/pec and that could be rewarding enough.
 
also, another problem with tt beeing the controlling parameter in terms of lootcalculation is the fact that all markup paid on L items would be lost forever, no matter how good dmg/pec you may get even with MU in the calculation.

it feels like we should be aware of this by now if that was the case, thats why i tend to lean more towards dmg done.

I mean, if ppl who paid 170 ped for a 1 ped tt gun, repeatedly lost 170 ped or more each broken gun, we would know about it, thats why i feel dmg is the parameter MA work with, however there are other indicators that opens the possibilites for other mechanisms aswell, wich makes it all very complicated..

We can now figure it all out, and thats a good thing.

However we can narrow it down to some general guidelines.
 
ermik said:
also, another problem with tt beeing the controlling parameter in terms of lootcalculation is the fact that all markup paid on L items would be lost forever, no matter how good dmg/pec you may get even with MU in the calculation.
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I drew up an excel chart for all weapons, and the typical MUIn is <103%. Some good priced ones even go as low as <100.8%

If loot is based on TTIn (which agrees with testing) then the curve is logarithmic. In other words going from 2.0 to 2.05 makes much more of a difference than going from 2.9 to 2.95.

Just my two pecs.
 
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