Question: Tell me about mob size multipliers

I have seen some conversations about the L value on a mob being a multiplier. Like in L10 mob gives XX loot and L35 gives XXX loot. I saw where some one was talking about an 750 ped HOF he got on a Longu young L7 and was saying that he wished it was on a larger mob because of a bigger multiplier, like L33.

A couple of years ago I got a 2500 ped HOF on a Daikiba mature. I posted a question about what if it would have been a bigger mob would the loot have been bigger. At that time most of the replies said no because that was the amount I was going to get no matter what the mob, if to say that no matter what you kill you get what you get.

So my question is, has that type of thinking changed and now we have multipliers and if that is true what would you think are the multipliers. Something like shots fired, L level of the mob, amount of decay, etc.

CozMoDan said:

A couple of years ago I got a 2500 ped HOF on a Daikiba mature. I posted a question about what if it would have been a bigger mob would the loot have been bigger. At that time most of the replies said no because that was the amount I was going to get no matter what the mob, if to say that no matter what you kill you get what you get.

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I would say if that mob had double HP, your loot would have been 5k PED instead.

Daikiba Mature has 70 HP. So your "HP multiplier" was 35.7.

It costs aprox 24 PEC to kill (2.92 DPP) meaning your "cost" multiplier was 10416. If the cost was 25 PEC (2.8 DPP) the multiplier would be 10k.

For hunting I would think an "HP multiplier" is in effect. The other one is only to compare results with mining and crafting, where the cost is fixed in another way.

Here is a thread I made some time ago now; https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?233214-MaxLoot-formula

I kind of suggest a max multiplier of 10k. But some people have proved me wrong.

I was just looking for Konve's good post on this, but he linked it.

I have yet to see it disproved as accurate roughly 99.8% of the time.

But I do want to say that two lines of thought that people add to the multipier conversation do not work...those being:

"Oh I wish I shot a bigger mob to use that multiplier on"
or
"Oh, I wish I was amped when I got that 700ped lyst hof"

What I mean by that is the multiplier you received at the time you received it, is not a static multiplier that your avatar would have received on another mob at that time, or if you were amped. It is still dependent on a tt return that the system decides you qualified for.

If that WAS the case, then I would be very pissed about using "my" 9k multiplier on fricking nissit texture. (187 ped global). I do NOT believe that if I was crafting L2 amps that day I still would have got a 9k multiplier. Not even close. I know a guy that quit because he burned a L13 amp with no global, and on the very next unamped drop hit for like 200. He thought that if he would have used that amp on that find he would have had 200 X L13 multiplier. I tried to explain that that was not how it worked, but he didn't get it. The multiplier is non transferable, so don't ever feel like you got it at the wrong time. You didn't. You got it at exactly the time you COULD get it.

So, to answer your question, no I don't think that has changed. I still think that the loot you receive is (mostly) a function of the area, the mob pool, specific loot that mob "needs" to drop, and your avatar's luck wave.

On another note, it has been pretty widely accepted that there is a gap between the cost to kill, and roughly 3 x's the cost to kill, where those amounts can't be looted. For years I never looted anything in that range. I think this is being disproved with current loot rules. I am receiving lots of 26-30 ped loots on big pop dragons that cost 15-24 ped to kill. Any thoughts on this?

Sunsout Gunsout said:

On another note, it has been pretty widely accepted that there is a gap between the cost to kill, and roughly 3 x's the cost to kill, where those amounts can't be looted. For years I never looted anything in that range. I think this is being disproved with current loot rules. I am receiving lots of 26-30 ped loots on big pop dragons that cost 15-24 ped to kill. Any thoughts on this?

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There should be hof and glob values you are not able to get with a specific setting. Changing that setting will also change the values you are able to get. e.g. a gun with a 2.950 eco will give different results than a gun with a 2.89 eco. Add to that armor decay and attachments and the range of values you are not able to get becomes really small, yet should still be noticable.

Konve said:

I would say if that mob had double HP, your loot would have been 5k PED instead.

Daikiba Mature has 70 HP. So your "HP multiplier" was 35.7.

It costs aprox 24 PEC to kill (2.92 DPP) meaning your "cost" multiplier was 10416. If the cost was 25 PEC (2.8 DPP) the multiplier would be 10k.

For hunting I would think an "HP multiplier" is in effect. The other one is only to compare results with mining and crafting, where the cost is fixed in another way.

Here is a thread I made some time ago now; https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?233214-MaxLoot-formula

I kind of suggest a max multiplier of 10k. But some people have proved me wrong.

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There is actually more than one multiplier, at least 3. I'm still considering if i should post a video of the tool i have (as MA has changed stuff since the last update so my tool is no longer working)

Sunsout Gunsout said:

I know a guy that quit because he burned a L13 amp with no global, and on the very next unamped drop hit for like 200. He thought that if he would have used that amp on that find he would have had 200 X L13 multiplier. I tried to explain that that was not how it worked, but he didn't get it. The multiplier is non transferable, so don't ever feel like you got it at the wrong time. You didn't. You got it at exactly the time you COULD get it.

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Not quite sure i understand. But if he was to had used an amp on that hof he got it would had gotten bigger. By from what i get from what you are saying you are saying he wouldnt. But if it would had been a 200x... is another matter. Not sure what you mean that the multiplier is non transferable, but if you are saying that the multiplier is tied to just that find that is correct, however with an amp it would had gotten bigger.

Sunsout Gunsout said:

I was just looking for Konve's good post on this, but he linked it.

I have yet to see it disproved as accurate roughly 99.8% of the time.

But I do want to say that two lines of thought that people add to the multipier conversation do not work...those being:

"Oh I wish I shot a bigger mob to use that multiplier on"
or
"Oh, I wish I was amped when I got that 700ped lyst hof"

What I mean by that is the multiplier you received at the time you received it, is not a static multiplier that your avatar would have received on another mob at that time, or if you were amped. It is still dependent on a tt return that the system decides you qualified for.

If that WAS the case, then I would be very pissed about using "my" 9k multiplier on fricking nissit texture. (187 ped global). I do NOT believe that if I was crafting L2 amps that day I still would have got a 9k multiplier. Not even close. I know a guy that quit because he burned a L13 amp with no global, and on the very next unamped drop hit for like 200. He thought that if he would have used that amp on that find he would have had 200 X L13 multiplier. I tried to explain that that was not how it worked, but he didn't get it. The multiplier is non transferable, so don't ever feel like you got it at the wrong time. You didn't. You got it at exactly the time you COULD get it.

So, to answer your question, no I don't think that has changed. I still think that the loot you receive is (mostly) a function of the area, the mob pool, specific loot that mob "needs" to drop, and your avatar's luck wave.

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I am of a completely different mind.

I say there are multipliers, and whenever you do -something- a random loot-multiplier function is called. No matter what you put into it, it spits out a multiplier of random size.

This way the system doesn't have to depend on any input (what if you tricked it into thinking you were killing snablesnots at a cost of 5000 PED per mob?) or keep track of all your losses (think of the server load to keep track of every avatars floating losses (or winnings) all the time, in real time).

Loot returns is then regulated by two things:
1) The cost of doing whatever you're doing. Killed an atrox young? Ok, let's just call the "calculate-loot function" with the input parameter "loot(hunting(atrox(young)))", which will call a multiplier and figure out what that all ends up to.
2) The law of averages. MA aint dumb. If there is a 90 % chance to loot 1PED and 1 % chance to loot 100 PED. The expected return is (0.9*1+0.01*100) 1.9 PED. Make sure no item in the game can kill the mob for less than 2 PED.
3) Profit.

CozMoDan said:

So my question is, has that type of thinking changed and now we have multipliers and if that is true what would you think are the multipliers. Something like shots fired, L level of the mob, amount of decay, etc.

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It's just a way to denominate probabilities in a more accurate way. I'll answer your question with another question.
Shoot 1000 shinikiba.
Shoot 1000 Aurli.
In which of the two cases are you more likely to receive loots over 10 PED?

Another issue is of course "Loot/Multipliers are predetermined in advance based on your history".
There is no real way to disprove this. On the other hand it's equally likely your probability to HoF could be based on what types of clothes your avatar is wearing. In real life it's called gambler's fallacy, in Entropia it would be called terrible coding.

Konve said:

I am of a completely different mind.

I say there are multipliers, and whenever you do -something- a random loot-multiplier function is called. No matter what you put into it, it spits out a multiplier of random size.

This way the system doesn't have to depend on any input (what if you tricked it into thinking you were killing snablesnots at a cost of 5000 PED per mob?) or keep track of all your losses (think of the server load to keep track of every avatars floating losses (or winnings) all the time, in real time).

Loot returns is then regulated by two things:
1) The cost of doing whatever you're doing. Killed an atrox young? Ok, let's just call the "calculate-loot function" with the input parameter "loot(hunting(atrox(young)))", which will call a multiplier and figure out what that all ends up to.
2) The law of averages. MA aint dumb. If there is a 90 % chance to loot 1PED and 1 % chance to loot 100 PED. The expected return is (0.9*1+0.01*100) 1.9 PED. Make sure no item in the game can kill the mob for less than 2 PED.
3) Profit.

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It's actually not that random, although there could be a random element in addition to make it more varied. But basically each mob and ore type has a base loot, and then each individual mob or ore hit has a certain loot multiplier as it's base added to this is then at least 0-3 additional multipliers added and probably some other stuff having to do with skills etc are put into the formula as well to get the final loot.

And BAH, i'll probably grab a few seconds of my tool i have later and post it in a few hours.

Call me dumb but I have no idea what any of you said.

ok, posted the video of my little timer tool. https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-loot-cycle-and-my-tool&p=3181333#post3181333

Legion said:

It's actually not that random, although there could be a random element in addition to make it more varied. But basically each mob and ore type has a base loot, and then each individual mob or ore hit has a certain loot multiplier as it's base added to this is then at least 0-3 additional multipliers added and probably some other stuff having to do with skills etc are put into the formula as well to get the final loot.

And BAH, i'll probably grab a few seconds of my tool i have later and post it in a few hours.

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How is the multiplier applied to the mob/ore deposit/thingy? Could it be a randomly generated number?

Edit: Watched the video. I'm not convinced, or you are withholding some crucial point. In any case it does not get rid of multipliers. And it's very close to what I described, except it also inputs your location and what time it is.

Konve said:

How is the multiplier applied to the mob/ore deposit/thingy? Could it be a randomly generated number?

Edit: Watched the video. I'm not convinced, or you are withholding some crucial point. In any case it does not get rid of multipliers. And it's very close to what I described, except it also inputs your location and what time it is.

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Well i am withholding some info about the timer but nothing that wont explain it. And no the multipliers are still there. I believe from experience with the old old old mining system that was bugged everything in eu is built up in veins, although some veins (depending on spawn density) has a very large distance between certain mobs etc. And each vein goes from good loot to smaller up to the middle where there is a decent loot and then back up to good loot at the end. So the base multiplier is like a curve with a slight difference between the good spots. So i guess the loot is somewhat predetermined but with a random part to it as well and then on top of this we get the timer as well that bump them up even more.

As for the timer i know it works because every uber i have ever seen has been inside, and when playing and studying the hofs in the chat they also occur within the areas.

Legion said:

Well i am withholding some info about the timer but nothing that wont explain it. And no the multipliers are still there. I believe from experience with the old old old mining system that was bugged everything in eu is built up in veins, although some veins (depending on spawn density) has a very large distance between certain mobs etc. And each vein goes from good loot to smaller up to the middle where there is a decent loot and then back up to good loot at the end. So the base multiplier is like a curve with a slight difference between the good spots. So i guess the loot is somewhat predetermined but with a random part to it as well and then on top of this we get the timer as well that bump them up even more.

As for the timer i know it works because every uber i have ever seen has been inside, and when playing and studying the hofs in the chat they also occur within the areas.

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I really wish you could explain how this works, like when you run and what to look for. I just don't understand by what you have said or what exactly to look for in the video.
Thanks

CozMoDan said:

I really wish you could explain how this works, like when you run and what to look for. I just don't understand by what you have said or what exactly to look for in the video.
Thanks

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It's a timer in game that decides where the good loot is at. To be in the right area you should be inside the different 8's preferably all three at the same time. But to be in all three at the same time is hard as they have quite varied speeds.

What to look for ingame is skillgains as they increase when you are in the right area. Although it needs to be a somewhat decent spawn. If it's just one or two mobs you might not get too many skillgains but also too many mobs will give you skillgains anyway even if not in a good area, for example nea's often gives false positives.

As for hunting it was stamina * 200 +-5% = max loot some time ago. Loots from hall of fame checked with entropedia data confirmed that. No idea how it is now, long time didn't saw any new research about that.

Legion said:

It's a timer in game that decides where the good loot is at. To be in the right area you should be inside the different 8's preferably all three at the same time. But to be in all three at the same time is hard as they have quite varied speeds.

What to look for ingame is skillgains as they increase when you are in the right area. Although it needs to be a somewhat decent spawn. If it's just one or two mobs you might not get too many skillgains but also too many mobs will give you skillgains anyway even if not in a good area, for example nea's often gives false positives.

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Then you are running it while in-game or before you get in or against a map outside the game while playing ? Is this something that you have let others use or just yourself. I am not trying to get too nosey I just find this very interesting.

CozMoDan said:

Then you are running it while in-game or before you get in or against a map outside the game while playing ? Is this something that you have let others use or just yourself. I am not trying to get too nosey I just find this very interesting.

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I have it running while playing on my other monitor. And no have not really let anyone else use it, most i have done is to tell a few friends where to go hunt or craft etc.