Are lies the barrier to development of the human race? and indeed this game?

Been thinking about this for a while, "Are lies the barrier to development of the human race? and this game" I think yes.

A lie has more to it than you may think of. One effect of it is to place a barrier to our understanding and hence progress. A problem can never be resolved if it isn't recognised.

For example a drug addict must first realise they have a problem i.e. drug addiction before they can resolve the problem. If they fail to make this realisation it is highly unlikely for them to overcome the problem.

Another real life example. I think we can all agree politicians most if not all blatantly lie. There is always an exception for example <name edited out>. Thought I'd edit the name out so that this thread does not veer into politics and hence gets locked. Anyway because politicians are prone to lie we never see any real progress towards development of the human race as a whole...

Furthermore we have actual educational courses that promote the use of lies for example spin-doctoring, marketing, politics, public relations etc.

There is no such academic equivalent that promotes or studies people being honest.

The result of all this is that people have become to accept lies are the norm and that there is no alternative. Hence the widespread use of lies in ever more sophisticated forms to distort reality. Lies may well help in short term limited goals that benefit a few but in the long term they are the biggest problem we has humans face today.

Perhaps it's time that was addressed so that as a species we can move forward. What do you think?

I'd say greed is the barrier, lies comes with greed.

I'd say lies are a barrier to humankinds development.

Like Sub-Zero, I think greed is also an obvious obstacle, but the largest obstacle I believe is egoism. That egoism doesn't have to be a single person projecting it; it could be a company, a political party, or a whole nation.

Egoism in the form of greed is often a source of preventing cooperation, which obviously slows down or even halts development and evolution. Think f.ex. of a company using "trade secret" or playing the "patent" card to prevent someone else from evolving "something". That behaviour could completely stop any progress in a whole branch of practical science or technology, thereby preventing the progress of both individuals and humankind as a whole for several generations (or if they pull a "copyright" card, effectively forver).

Another kind of egoism that for decades prevented progress of useful science - even totally annihilated cooperation by threats of prison or sometimes even death - was USA's idiotic claim that encrytion algorithms were munition. That stance prevented a whole world from cooperating for decades.

Lies, while some are based on greed, can fall into other categories such as attempt to avoid responsibility.

I therefore think egoism, which by its very nature is shortsighted (and generally idiotic, seen in a larger perspective), is probably the largest obstacle to not only humankinds development, but utimately the source of its own destruction.


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This got me thinking of the monologue in The Matrix, where humankind is described as a virus. In context of this discussion, I think the computer program was 100% correct.

GeorgeSkywalker said:

...There is no such academic equivalent that promotes or studies people being honest. ...

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I agree with most of what you said, but i think that a major part of the academia strive for truth and which is built on trust. The scientific principle is built on trust and honesty is being actively promoted in the academic world (At the very least in the natural sciences).

GeorgeSkywalker said:

Been thinking about this for a while, "Are lies the barrier to development of the human race? and this game"

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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." ~Abraham Lincoln

What a complicated and interesting question, when you think about it.

One complication is the word "development". Humankind is not a product to be developed towards the goal of being more profitable. I still think the word "evolve" is better. But what should we evolve towards? Towards a being better equipped to protect your close ones or better equipped towards an ultimate understanding of others, or simply a self sustaining being independant of others?

I believe we should strive towards human beings, and players, with more motivation.
I would like to see two things in focus, better communication skills and more happy and satisfied people.
Being able to see and understand others and make them understand us I believe is a good path towards happiness. Maybe MA with its new chat interface wanted just that, to globalize us and get us more connected. But I cant stop thinking there must be some economic planning behind it.

I once watched a documentary about Bhutan.
The documentary said that in Bhutan they have something called gyal-yong ga'a-kyid pal-'dzoms, or Gross National Happiness (GNH), as a

Wikipedia said:

measure of quality of life or social progress in a more holistic and psychological term than only the economic indicator of gross domestic product (GDP)

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Wikipedia continues:

The Bhutanese grounding in Buddhist ideals suggests that beneficial development of human society takes place when material and spiritual development occur side by side to complement and reinforce each other.

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I trully believe in this as a very wise way of governing, not just a country, but even an online world like Entropia Universe.

Sub-Zero said:

I'd say greed is the barrier, lies comes with greed.

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LoL!!
What cave have you been living in? Greed is one of the main ingredience in Inovation, aka development.

I dont see what lies have to do with development of human race?

To say that lies have something to do with human race development, I would put it at the same importance for development as if we all cut off our legs, and didnt run around, and just sit in one spot philosophize all day long.....


Apples and oragnes... cant be compared....

bard119 said:

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." ~Abraham Lincoln

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What if everything on the internet is true, but people just dont belive it?

Kimmi said:

What if everything on the internet is true, but people just dont belive it?

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Do not try to understand the internet, that is impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth, that there is no internet.

If you are talking about EU development... well, you can't have lies unless you actually communicate something, don't ya think?

This!

bard119 said:

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." ~Abraham Lincoln

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You can't argue with facts.

GeorgeSkywalker said:

Been thinking about this for a while, "Are lies the barrier to development of the human race? and this game" I think yes.

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i see lies as a symptom to a wider issue, some would call them psychopaths, others sociopaths, the DSM-IV calls it antisocial personality disorder, the WHO's ICD-10 says dissocial personality disorder, there is a theory that from a evolutionary standpoint this represents a socially parasitic strategy.
but for me it all boils down to the fact that there are human beings that look like human beings on the outside, but lack all or most of the qualities that define us as human beings, the qualities that differentiate us from other more simple organisms. qualities such as love, empathy, generosity, guilt, and remorse.

people without remorse or empathy, love or guilt can be very successful in a society such as ours, but when you have too many people like this in positions where they have a real influence it leads to decisions being made that are detrimental to the well being of the species as a whole, or on a smaller scale, the success of a company, a game, a team, a political party, a country.

GeorgeSkywalker said:

...Lies may well help in short term limited goals that benefit a few but in the long term they are the biggest problem we has humans face today.

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name one significant long term problem that is the product of a lie or dishonesty?

Lies are a valuable and intricate part of human relations, a sophisticated part of our social intelligence. the very fact you have highlighted they (or social sciences that utilise them) have been extensivly studied shows this. to remove lies would be to hamstring our social interaction.

If it weren't for lies the human race would be no more developed than chimpanzees. Given this, some people would still say lying has been bad for humans.

slither said:

If it weren't for lies the human race would be no more developed than chimpanzees. Given this, some people would still say lying has been bad for humans.

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some academics say otherwise (yes i googled it):

Deception: Perspectives on Deceit in Humans and Nonhumans Mitchell, R. W., and Thompson, N. S., eds. 1986, Albany, New York:SUNY Press.

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deception is not unusual in the animal world so i am not sure that the argument that the human races development depends upon lies is one that has a basis in fact.

Thanks for all the input so far. Some interesting food for thought, I'll try to respond to as many as I can. For the time being only the 3 below.

bard119 said:

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." ~Abraham Lincoln

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The bit in quotes in my first post above is made up by me, so not from the internet. Not sure why I placed it in quotes perhaps to highlight it or in terms of making it questionable.

aridash said:

name one significant long term problem that is the product of a lie or dishonesty?

Lies are a valuable and intricate part of human relations, a sophisticated part of our social intelligence. the very fact you have highlighted they (or social sciences that utilise them) have been extensivly studied shows this. to remove lies would be to hamstring our social interaction.

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slither said:

If it weren't for lies the human race would be no more developed than chimpanzees. Given this, some people would still say lying has been bad for humans.

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It's difficult to address these properly here because the conversation would lead into politics and hence this thread may get locked or moderated. Moderated is ok but a lock I would like to avoid.

Anyway I'll try and address your points in slightly ambiguous terms so as to avoid a lock.

There are many long term problems in the world that I reckon could be addressed and indeed peacefully solved. However, they can't be addressed due to the lies.

To put it another way lies can be the root cause of disharmony, discontent, hatred and even war.

In game we can get similar situations with long term tit for tat "hits" e.g. a war of words. I can think of some personal examples which stem from lies/scams.

Your right though sometimes lies can be useful and indeed we all lie at some level or another. Where they can be useful is in game design, films, tv shows etc i.e. to create drama that makes for better viewing pleasure.

In real life though we should draw a distinction because in real life lies can prevent peace/harmony and progress/evolution.

For example I work in teaching and from my experience have noted a few issues. One example is observations their purpose is allegedly to improve teaching and have better teachers. This is a lie because in reality what happens is during an observation the tutors who put on an act for the observer and do all the items listed on his/her tick list will get a good grade. Essentially what it can amount to is the tutor putting on the best act gets the best grade. Then managers will look at student results and tutor grades and find their is no correlation between the two and remain perplexed why that is Ofcourse there would be no correlation because of observation bias. In reality those tutor grades are arguably meaningless.

If this observation lie was addressed perhaps we would have real progress and development that would benefit students and tutors. Since it never is addressed the problem continues.

We all lie at some level or another but perhaps in our professional lives we could do better. Think about where you work and imagine if people raised their game and didn't lie wouldn't your workplace be better off? Possibly less stress and more productive?

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there is 'lie' and 'LIE'

for example MA lie to you every day but if they did not no one will ever play EU.

i lie often in my work but if i dident i will never close deal.

you car dealer lie to you but if he dident you never buy car.

to sumer up lie is nesesery tool to progress in life.

Long version:

Ian Leslie
Born Liars - Why we can't live without deceit.


Short version:

Lie is a shade of cunning, and cunning is a shade of intelligence. You can't take it away without taking away the others. You can breed a generation of "new humans" not familiar with the conception of "lie", but it will be only a matter of time before one them discovers the advantages of truth bending - and dominates the others.

GeorgeSkywalker said:

To put it another way lies can be the root cause of disharmony, discontent, hatred and even war.

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Of course, because all these are natural environment for human progress. During all the history, periods of thriving art did grow out of the darkest ages, the bloodiest conflicts led to the most prominent technological breakthroughs. WWI roused the aviation from being a mere toy of enthusiasts, WW2 gave us atomic energy and brought into space (where we haven't done much in the last half a century of stability).

We live in probably the most peaceful time of human history, but it also is the most stagnant. Even those industrial fields that display some advancement are driven by not the noblest human impulses - if not the envy for the neighbor's bigger TV, we'd still stare into black & white tubes. If not for porn, we would still use 1200 bod modems . Remember the VHS vs Betamax story.

Any sane human would prefer for his family to live in the least "interesting" times, but humanity as a whole is the Phoenix that needs to burn itself and rise from the ashes again and again to move ahead. The day when humans extirpate their last vice will mark the beginning of their extinction.

I can't believe some of you feel we are stagnating. I mean, my God, most Americans walk around with a super computer in their purse or pocket that puts any Star Trek tool to shame.

Private industry is now launching their own space flights and are planning a moon trip.

Almost any data/fact related question can be answered simply by asking on the internet.

New batteries for toys and such are lasting magnitudes longer.

Like minded people can meet and discuss subjects virtually at any time, from anywhere, at practically no cost.

Our biggest social concerns are based on not if a portion of the country is starving or not, but what the definition of the word "marriage" is.

The United States alone produces so much surplus that literally 2/3 rds of the country does not even need to contribute to society.

We are literally living in the age of magic. If you go to the proper place, with the proper ritual, you can have a majority of your wishes fulfilled.(i.e.) Go to the proper restaurant, pay money, and get whatever food you want.

ZekeZerostone said:

I can't believe some of you feel we are stagnating. I mean, my God, most Americans walk around with a super computer in their purse or pocket that puts any Star Trek tool to shame.

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I see your point, but most of these are quantitative, not qualitative changes. Smaller, faster, but not revolutionary. But if you compare the changes, say, from 1864 to 1914 and to 1964, then if we had a similar spurt in the last 50 years, we'd now have this discussion without the use of any external devices, while one of us living in a Ganymede colony, or something

Are lies the barrier to development of the human race? I'd say no because it is lack of understanding the ultimate cause of why we lie; among the other stupid things we do.

ZekeZerostone said:

Our biggest social concerns are based on not if a portion of the country is starving or not, but what the definition of the word "marriage" is.

The United States alone produces so much surplus that literally 2/3 rds of the country does not even need to contribute to society.

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its a shame you took this abstract/intellectual discussion into a direction that is both specific and invites a rebuttal that can only breach multiple forum rules. it would be nice if you removed the parts of your post that refer to a specific country, especially considering the fact that a significant proportion of people would find belief in santa more realistic than the way you have just described its "state".

Fallen, I don't understand your concern. I have placed no opinion on either of those statements you quoted. I merely mention my country because it is the only environment I feel informed enough to use as evidence to dispute the claim of civilization stagnation.

To add to the forming quote soup...

Robert A. Heinlein said:

The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort.

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ZekeZerostone said:

Fallen, I don't understand your concern. I have placed no opinion on either of those statements you quoted. I merely mention my country because it is the only environment I feel informed enough to use as evidence to dispute the claim of civilization stagnation.

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ok, ill guess ill have to have both our posts edited and/or removed then, its a pity and i hope they dont lock this interesting thread due to your ignorance and arrogance.

Our biggest social concerns are based on not if a portion of the country is starving or not, but what the definition of the word "marriage" is.

The United States alone produces so much surplus that literally 2/3 rds of the country does not even need to contribute to society.

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lets ignore for a minute the fact that large parts of the US are bankrupt and look worse than a third world country (detroit anyone?), lets ignore for a minute that until recently a large part of the country did not have health insurance, lets ignore for a minute all the homeless people to marvel at the idea that you really think that your biggest social concern in the USA is the definition of the word "marriage" when you have a unprecedented assault on whistle-blowers, you have a out of control FBI entrapping innocent people to invent plots that would not have existed otherwise, you have mass surveillance of innocent people that can only be described as a STASI wet dream, you have secret courts, secret rulings, secret interpretation of laws, you have people that you have kidnapped (rendition) from around the world held beyond the power of a court of law that have been tortured, you have a so called progressive and democratic president with a kill lists committing war crimes and crimes against humanity by executing people without due-process in countries you are not at war with via drone strikes and/or the JSOC death-squads.

from the outside it really does look as if how to define the word "marriage" really is the biggest issue the USA has...

i could lay into your other bizarre claim too but since our posts are going to be removed it would seem to be a wasted effort.

Svarog said:

Of course, because all these are natural environment for human progress. During all the history, periods of thriving art did grow out of the darkest ages, the bloodiest conflicts led to the most prominent technological breakthroughs. WWI roused the aviation from being a mere toy of enthusiasts, WW2 gave us atomic energy and brought into space (where we haven't done much in the last half a century of stability).

We live in probably the most peaceful time of human history, but it also is the most stagnant. Even those industrial fields that display some advancement are driven by not the noblest human impulses - if not the envy for the neighbor's bigger TV, we'd still stare into black & white tubes. If not for porn, we would still use 1200 bod modems . Remember the VHS vs Betamax story.

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Just because WW1 and WW2 sped up the development in aviation and other at the time cutting edge technology, don't mean all of the development in those areas is thank to the wars. All of the development would come anyway, wars just gives a higher incentive to speed up the development on technology that gives a benefit in wars, but in the longer run it makes no different.

Same for the internet, just because the porn industry was one of the first to see the big benefit with internet does not mean that internet would not be as good as is today without. I often see similar statements about different developments, but just because the technology was first just in some specific area, don't mean that the whole development is just because of the use in that area.

People rarely outright lie, they more often just avoid to tell the truth, give vaguely unclear answers or direct the conservation to some other subject that are more beneficial for their own goal. I don't think MA lie, they just are a bit unclear with their information or avoid giving away information.

Most people like being lied to.

what a cute baby you have!

"your so handsome, smart, pretty, etc"

Of course those pants don't make your ass look fat!

your team is awesome!

OMG its so BIG

"I love you"

I will love you forever!

She means nothing to me, your special.

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Its arguable that with out lies, we would stop getting married, stop working to support family, and possibly stop procreating all together.