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CozMoDan

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Herco Coz Mann
First let us all agree that there is a loot cap on certain mobs. I am sure I read this in a release note or some post that was from MA but I just can't seem to find it. Anyway, how do you think it works ?

1. Mob size by amount of damage given or amount of HP ?
2. Or both of the above, to a lesser degree damage and more about HP of a given mob(My thought)?

I can't think of any other ways but post them if you have other ideas.

The big question is where is the cut-off. I am sure MA has a formula of some sort to determine where the smaller HOFs and larger ones start and stop and the maximum amount on a capped mob and maybe no cap at all on the others. I think it is safe to say that the 332K ATH would be near the top if there is a top cap:).

Since the cap I think I have seen one 5 digit HOF on an atrox young around 10-12K and that is the smallest mob I remember.

That being said, because of very large ATH mentioned above it may still be possible to get a 5 digit HOF from a smaller mob if things are exactly perfect and if the algorithm to determine loot size does not check the mob itself. By that I mean it basically says oh this is a snabby so I can not go over 500 ped even though it should be 5000 ped. Another possible is no matter the modifier to determine loot size it would be impossible to reach a 5 digit HOF on a smaller mob. The mulmum looter elite has an HP 14300 and damage of 120 so if you take a modifier of 20X plus addition modifier for the 120 damage that could equal 332K, but a snabby male alpha has only 120 HP and 31 damage that would only be around 2700 ped.

Just guessing there:), but who knows.
 
Molisk is among the species capped which is strange because its not really a noob Mob. Try a molisk leader in ghost if you want to test it.
 
I can for sure tell you unamped mining on planets is capped to around ~1k.
Earlier you could get towers.. or even ATH =)

As for mobs. I see you may spam big globals or HoFs rather than getting a huge one. The huge ones are rather to not happen often or by MA's permission to manually allow it maybe.
 
CozMoDan said:
First let us all agree that there is a loot cap on certain mobs. I am sure I read this in a release note or some post that was from MA but I just can't seem to find it.
Click to expand...

There are some sort of limits in place... MA isn't going to give out a billion ped loot on any mob. However I don't necessarily agree that MA has recently "capped" certain mobs, there were some rumors that started on the forums about that a few weeks ago.

I think a good way to start this discussion is to use entropialife to look at the biggest loots on the most heavily hunted mobs and go from what's actually observable. I honestly don't know if ATHs fit into the normal loot forumulas... I think they're entered into the system manually. One reason for believing this is that the 300k ATH came right at the moment when loot overall was being lowered pretty dramatically (too much overall, according to my rough calculations, to account for the extra 300k).

If you look at mobs, for example, carabok, the max loot I think we've seen is ~ 600 ped. That would be roughly 15k multiplier of the cost to kill and on a mob with 15000 hp an equivalent multiplier would be 750k ped.

A 15k multiplier on a uber 2000 ped mob would be 30 million peds... would that ever happen? I'm skeptical... my guess is that a certain number of the mobs would need to be killed in order for the system to allow uber multipliers like this and because big ones take so long to kill it would never happen. Or these giant multipliers are only given out manually.
 
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Spawn said:
Molisk is among the species capped which is strange because its not really a noob Mob. Try a molisk leader in ghost if you want to test it.
Click to expand...
Boy is that the truth:). At about level 50 hunter I tried a leader with ghost armor and 5B plates and got killed at least 3 and maybe 4 times:).Basically Kick My Butt :eyecrazy:.
 
Describing it as there being a "loot cap" i think is wrong, can any mob loot a endless amount of peds? the answer is definitly no, but a cap insinuates that there is a cap manually set by MA. I would be very surpriced if it turns out that there is a hard coded cap on a per mob basis, its needless work that does nothing at all.

It would make much more sense to use a variable condition methodology to calculate loot as it can be used on a macro scale and does not need to be changed on a per mob basis and will still give steady reliable results.

Basically loot is calculated based on predefined over arching principals combined with the stats of the mob in question. In laymans terms there is a cap for every mob but not because it is artifically imposed on top of the loot system but because the way a proper loot system functions.

As to how creature stats are valued i have no clue, one would have to hunt the different types of mobs(fast, high dmg, low dmg etc) and see if there is a difference in "loot multiplier" and even so one would get a clouded image at best.

Best regards
Zweshi
 
TheRock said:
I can for sure tell you unamped mining on planets is capped to around ~1k.
Earlier you could get towers.. or even ATH =)
Click to expand...

since when?
lvl5 amp on taxed land, 2.5 ped enmatter drop x6000 max multiplier - tax =
14538 PED Star Particles 07/06/2012
Click to expand...
 
Neil Stockton said:
I honestly don't know if ATHs fit into the normal loot forumulas... I think they're entered into the system manually. One reason for believing this is that the 300k ATH came right at the moment when loot overall was being lowered pretty dramatically (too much overall, according to my rough calculations, to account for the extra 300k).
Click to expand...

oh dear, conspiracy theory time...
with your rough calcs did you think to try cost to kill+insane regen due to him being stupid to kill that mob solo x 6K multiplier? because that easily gets you to 330K without resorting to paranoid fantasies...
 
FallenAngel said:
oh dear, conspiracy theory time...
with your rough calcs did you think to try cost to kill+insane regen due to him being stupid to kill that mob solo x 6K multiplier? because that easily gets you to 330K without resorting to paranoid fantasies...
Click to expand...

I'm really not sure what your problem is, perhaps you could keep the personal attacks to a minimum? Thx.

Back to topic, I never denied that big ATHs happen. I just said that I suspect there is manual control over them by MA. No need to cry conspiracy over that. Just think how you would set it up if you were in charge and did not want the system to assign a 10 million dollar ATH payout when you least expected it (that amount might be theoretically possible with the biggest mobs). Some kind of manual control must come into play at some level.
 
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Neil Stockton said:
Back to topic, I never denied that big ATHs happen. I just said that I suspect there is manual control over them by MA. No need to cry conspiracy over that. Just think how you would set it up if you were in charge and did not want the system to assign a 10 million dollar ATH payout when you least expected it (that amount might be theoretically possible with the biggest mobs). Some kind of manual control must come into play at some level.
Click to expand...

Manual control is completely unnecessary, costs more money and doesn't really make sense on the system level. The loot system as any other works of off a set of math calculations with certain probabilities within a predefined confine depending on situation. Its not some space wizard watching over our loot, if someone loots a 10 million dollar ATH(which i highly doubt will ever happen) then that means that within the parameters set that amount of money could be allocated in one single loot without impacting the balance of the over all system.

The 300k loot example is a poor one, it does not signify manual control in anyway, if loot was lowered overall for some reason(which i doubt btw) then the probability of a large loot would most likely go up.

Best regards
Zweshi
 
Just play a bit with Entropia Life, check for mobs like drone, argo, molisk, foul, daik. Even for mobs a bit more tough like atrox. When was the last time you saw a 10k loot from an atrox, even if it's a alpha one? And not only hunting, some cheap bps like some from textures also suffered a big change on the max loot that they can give. And yes, unamped mining was also capped a lot!

There was before modified loot and after!!! (January 2013)


There was also one time when I saw 450 ped HOF from puny mobs, now even a 50 ped loot from punies is a very rare event. (didn't saw anything above 25 ped the last months)


Even if before a 1k ped loot from a daikiba wasn't properly a common loot, now that is just impossible!


Actually if you want to HOF on hunting you need to go for prot/levia/feffox or any other dangerous and high HP mob. This made low and medium low players to have no more hopes for a big loot. Seaching the mu's with litle profit but steady is the key now, almost like a work! Fun and hope was removed to encourage players to skill more and faster so they can start to hunt proterons and loss even more faster! Then maybe the HOF arrive...


You play for 5 years then in one day the all game change and what was fun before and that could give you a small chance to have a 1k ped loot now is completely impossible to achieve! And all that they told us was, "modified loot from now on, enjoy!"


Remove hope from players and all we have is ... sell out and quite?
 
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For hunting it used to be roughly 20 x health (or damage inflicted, not sure), so a 1k health mob could give up to around 20k. I think Atrox youngs used to top out around there.

The #1 ATH Mulmun Looter Elite with regen still makes sense for this formula.

But it seems like max loots are much more rare these days and the loot is more evenly distributed.
 
Fanan said:
Just play a bit with Entropia Life, check for mobs like drone, argo, molisk, foul, daik. Even for mobs a bit more tough like atrox. When was the last time you saw a 10k loot from an atrox, even if it's a alpha one? And not only hunting, some cheap bps like some from textures also suffered a big change on the max loot that they can give. And yes, unamped mining was also capped a lot!

There was before modified loot and after!!! (January 2013)


There was also one time when I saw 450 ped HOF from puny mobs, now even a 50 ped loot from punies is a very rare event. (didn't saw anything above 25 ped the last months)


Even if before a 1k ped loot from a daikiba wasn't properly a common loot, now that is just impossible!


Actually if you want to HOF on hunting you need to go for prot/levia/feffox or any other dangerous and high HP mob. This made low and medium low players to have no more hopes for a big loot. Seaching the mu's with litle profit but steady is the key now, almost like a work! Fun and hope was removed to encourage players to skill more and faster so they can start to hunt proterons and loss even more faster! Then maybe the HOF arrive...


You play for 5 years then in one day the all game change and what was fun before and that could give you a small chance to have a 1k ped loot now is completely impossible to achieve! And all that they told us was, "modified loot from now on, enjoy!"


Remove hope from players and all we have is ... sell out and quite?
Click to expand...

BINGO :wise:
 
Neil Stockton said:
I'm really not sure what your problem is, perhaps you could keep the personal attacks to a minimum? Thx.

Back to topic, I never denied that big ATHs happen. I just said that I suspect there is manual control over them by MA. No need to cry conspiracy over that. Just think how you would set it up if you were in charge and did not want the system to assign a 10 million dollar ATH payout when you least expected it (that amount might be theoretically possible with the biggest mobs). Some kind of manual control must come into play at some level.
Click to expand...

i didnt attack you personally at all, you do have a tendency to frequently pluck bizarre "facts" out of thin air and pronounce them with a air of authority, i think it is therefore quite understandable that people will challenge this.
that i have been one of those people on more than one occasion is purely down to you making stuff up and not a personal issue i have with you at all.
you are still doing it now, "Some kind of manual control must come into play at some level", it sounds intelligent in some way but "some" is a meaningless word in this context, especially when used twice, and if you then use the word "must" in the same sentence with a vague and meaningless word what do you expect?
i see you ignore my example where i show what could be a way that this is controlled automatically, it a simple method, and you can use it to look at any of the hofs or aths and check how closely it matches reality, but instead you continue to fantasise, others have given a slightly differing method for calculating max loot.
and the easy way for MA to prevent loots it is not prepared to pay out is by not making mobs/amps/indoor loot mechanics higher than it intends. it is so simple and without the need for the game to be rigged.
 
BBpunisher said:
That hof you reference was 2012. Completely different game now.
Click to expand...

that is why i asked, since when?
i gave a concrete example from personal experience in the hope that others would either provide more recent examples or be able to explain when this changed.
the 330K mulmun loot that is more recent appears to still follow this formula and that is more recent.
you have to understand these loots are rare, and if activity is low they are unlikely to happen every day, my avatar is over 7 years old and i have seen two such multipliers, 1 in 2007 while hunting a small mob, the other the mining claim i referenced. to put it in context i must of had a turnover in that period that far exceeds 500K ped.
 
Fanan said:
Just play a bit with Entropia Life, check for mobs like drone, argo, molisk, foul, daik. Even for mobs a bit more tough like atrox. When was the last time you saw a 10k loot from an atrox, even if it's a alpha one? And not only hunting, some cheap bps like some from textures also suffered a big change on the max loot that they can give. And yes, unamped mining was also capped a lot!

There was before modified loot and after!!! (January 2013)


There was also one time when I saw 450 ped HOF from puny mobs, now even a 50 ped loot from punies is a very rare event. (didn't saw anything above 25 ped the last months)


Even if before a 1k ped loot from a daikiba wasn't properly a common loot, now that is just impossible!


Actually if you want to HOF on hunting you need to go for prot/levia/feffox or any other dangerous and high HP mob. This made low and medium low players to have no more hopes for a big loot. Seaching the mu's with litle profit but steady is the key now, almost like a work! Fun and hope was removed to encourage players to skill more and faster so they can start to hunt proterons and loss even more faster! Then maybe the HOF arrive...


You play for 5 years then in one day the all game change and what was fun before and that could give you a small chance to have a 1k ped loot now is completely impossible to achieve! And all that they told us was, "modified loot from now on, enjoy!"


Remove hope from players and all we have is ... sell out and quite?
Click to expand...


Best post so far .. Ty mindark for this mod empty ped card loot:girl:

Sell fast because fuckin noobs start selling skills in less that empty skill implant cost;);)
 
FallenAngel said:
you have to understand these loots are rare, and if activity is low they are unlikely to happen every day, my avatar is over 7 years old and i have seen two such multipliers, 1 in 2007 while hunting a small mob, the other the mining claim i referenced. to put it in context i must of had a turnover in that period that far exceeds 500K ped.
Click to expand...

If taking into account turnover of the whole community then it should happen at least once in couple days. In the 'old days' I would say 1 mob out of max 500.000 was jackpot.
 
slightly off the main topic: the reason imo that the big ones on small mobs don't happen anymore is simply that not enough people hunt them (compared to a few years ago) to make the system give them those large multipliers.

it's as simple as 100 people hunting 1 mob costing say, 4 ped per kill. they loose on average of 40 pec/mob, and on average kill 100 mobs an hour. in 24 hours, thats 40x100x24 pec = 96000 pec, or 960 ped lost. it will not any time soon generate a multiplier that goes beyound this amount in ped/hof.

take the same situation with 1000 people hunting that mob, and all of a sudden you see 10k hofs dropping once a week orso.

since planets were introduced and the community did not grow as much as it got devided across those planets (and there fore servers and mobs) the chances of those big mobs happening again are small. multiply the current userbase by 100 and i doubt the hoflist would even register anything below 1000 ped.
 
FallenAngel said:
that i have been one of those people on more than one occasion is purely down to you making stuff up and not a personal issue i have with you at all.
you are still doing it now, "Some kind of manual control must come into play at some level"
Click to expand...

That is not a FACT, but an ASSERTION I made. Surely you can see the difference between the two?

Please PM me a list of these "facts" that you think I have made up, referencing post links and I'd be happy to send you a summary of my data that lead to these assertions. If you have some other personal disagreement with me other than actual things I've said that you feel compelled to share, please take it to PM instead, unless your sole purpose is to tarnish my reputation for accuracy... in which case we will have to take it up with the moderators.
 
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FallenAngel said:
since when?
lvl5 amp on taxed land, 2.5 ped enmatter drop x6000 max multiplier - tax =
Click to expand...

Since the new system? 2013+
Don't act as if you don't know about the change done.

In 2012 yes, everything were good.
 
TheRock said:
Since the new system? 2013+
Don't act as if you don't know about the change done.

In 2012 yes, everything were good.
Click to expand...

but the mulmun 330K was after this so its not acting its a genuine question, i dont spend much time monitoring hofs to check their multiplier.
 
FallenAngel said:
but the mulmun 330K was after this so its not acting its a genuine question, i dont spend much time monitoring hofs to check their multiplier.
Click to expand...

Read my first comment. I said AND some may be manually controlled... But in general the change is all over on all fields with some exceptions such as this mulmuun or other coming ATHs
 
Neil Stockton said:
That is not a FACT, but an ASSERTION I made. Surely you can see the difference between the two?

Please PM me a list of these "facts" that you think I have made up, referencing post links and I'd be happy to send you a summary of my data that lead to these assertions. If you have some other personal disagreement with me other than actual things I've said that you feel compelled to share, please take it to PM instead, unless your sole purpose is to tarnish my reputation for accuracy... in which case we will have to take it up with the moderators.
Click to expand...

im sorry neil i have better things to do, when we have had disagreements in the past it has been on exactly these kinds of issues, and each time i have been pretty specific about my objections and why i felt you were wrong to make those assertions, i dont see how i can tarnish your reputation for accuracy when it is you that present unfounded assertions as if they are facts. i have had no problem agreeing with you when what you say was based upon facts such as when you were vocal about the mining changes and i posted in support of your complaints?
i repeat, i have no issue with you personally, i dont even know you so how could i?
but if you feel the need to take it up with the moderators, or do have the time to go searching through our old interactions to check if your feelings are correct that i did have a issue with you personally instead of your assertions (and i am not being honest with you now), feel free to do so.
in case you forgot some of the earliest times we disagreed upon facts was on the arkadia forum where you have a "arkadia advisor" tag next to your name and i assume that it is not unreasonable to expect a high level of accuracy when making assertions? but again, feel free to contact the moderators there also, or search for what you say are my transgressions against you.

now, can we get back on topic?
i, and others, have posted how we have observed max loot is calculated, one via health, one via a multiplier that one can check quite easily against existing hofs/aths across professions, why not address how your assertions of "big hofs must be assigned manually" fit in with those observations from the real world?
 
FallenAngel said:
i, and others, have posted how we have observed max loot is calculated, one via health, one via a multiplier that one can check quite easily against existing hofs/aths across professions, why not address how your assertions of "big hofs must be assigned manually" fit in with those observations from the real world?
Click to expand...

If you seriously think that MA would allow a 10 million ped ATH to drop, it is completely fine for you to believe that, it is a valid opinion. It is an opinion that is not supported by evidence, however, since the largest hunting ATH has "only" been 330k ped and before that only 127k ped 3.5 years earlier. Until something insanely big drops, I'll say the evidence is in favor of my theory. :)

That says nothing, however, about manual control over uber ATHs. Because of their rarity, it would be impossible to differentiate between automatic or manual release of those loots.
 
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I'm a relatively new player (8 months playing)
not sure if this helps the discussion but:

982 Narc on Monria with unamped f105 on 1/24/2014
 
My understanding is the new system seems to make a lot more sense because:

* Having loot capped in relation to level of mob encourages and rewards skilling up
* Therefore claims of skills don't matter in previous system hopefully will no longer be the case
* Removal of a daily 20k+ uber loot also stops the bitching related to such loots i.e. loot being more spread between players hopefully makes it a bit fairer


Also under this new system my understanding is a loot greater than 1 million peds is quite possible exactly what the upper limit is I don't think any of us can say. At least not yet, once we have more data and time goes by perhaps the mathematicians amongst us will have a better idea. Such a high loot is possible because a small amount saved daily could be saved towards such a big loot and it could keep accumulating until conditions for it to drop are met. So it wouldn't really be a big burden on player base plus would be a nice prize for lucky looter. Note also funds from other systems could be directed towards such a loot e.g. in game auction system. I would imagine the in game auction system can easily generate a loot of millions of peds quite quickly, rather than MA keeping that perhaps they place it in loot.
 
In regards to mining, the highest confirmed unamped mining claims GMC has had in the last 1.25M drops is 2000x multiplier for both ore and enmatter (very rare... only 1 of each). 1000x multipliers are relatively common (10-20 claims for each type) and claims between 1000x and 2000x seem to be nearly as rare as 2000x.
 
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