Revitalize/repurpose/upgrade existing gear rather than endless obsolescesce of player knowledge

Doer

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David "Doer" Falkayn
This thread was prompted by these threads:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?262143-new-discoveries
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?262172-Explore-Even-More

...But it has been a long time coming. We've seen the phasing out of several generations of Calypso weapons (along with the entire set of bps) and increasingly ridiculous in-game item counts. It's hard to keep track of weapon lines and it can be frustrating to have to throw out everything you know about a particular aspect of the game and start over (I still know exactly where to find every mob in calypso... unfortunately that map was tossed out and redone at VU 10...).

All of this is to say that, although the game can (and should) evolve, this is often done in ways that unnecessarily add confusion or "throw out the baby with the bath water". New stats and features can be introduced without abandoning what we know.

Instead of tossing out the entire Geotrek line, add Mark IIs with similar relative stats; instead of making blueprints useless and abruptly removing components from loot, incorporate the obsolete product into new, upgraded products.

Instead of abandoning your entire line up of classic armors (some of which still don't have footguards), offer upgrades or refresh the designs. Drop armor-specific buff attachments, refiner ingredients, or bps which consume the actual items and produce an upgraded item.

This has been done to a small extent: we have upgrades to 5B and 6A plates, imp/adj/mod versions of some armors that dropped for a limited time, as well as A105 and A204 amps, TEN, mentor and SGA editions, adj pixie :). How about expanding that concept of ingredient drops that can be refined with the armor pieces, or two pieces, to make some of those classic sets relevant again, not just to collectors, but for use? Dragon, hunter, bodyguard, shogun, knight, guardian, explorer, etc. have all become obsolete in durability. Sets with low protection now (fail to) compete with new PP faps with 15+ heal/pec and armors from PPs.

Other sets are still relevant, but the writing is on the wall: armor with built-in buffs is being introduced. The animal armor line (bear, boar, jag, tiger, lion, etc.) is still the bread and butter of the caly lineup, along with the undead line (zombie, ghost, phantom, liche, etc.). Many of us know the heirarchy/progression of these series and this helps keep straight expectations about the stats of a given set. Please consider mark IIs or upgrades when the time comes for new armors to the caly lineup, rather than abandoning the classic PE gear designs. IMO many of those have more personality than later items. In fact, it may finally be time now (with the buff system) to implement personality differences in armor and other items that could only be described or hinted at originally. The caly design team is, in many ways, entrusted with the keeping of the soul of PE. Much of that was good, so please don't abandon it.

One final comment in what is admittedly a post that may not reflect the views or understanding of many newer players and even some of my fellow geezers: upgrading an item need not always mean greater protection or damage. The new scopes and sites are an indication you have finally realized there's potential in economy upgrades.
 
A whole other skill can be introduced by imbuing or enchanting (as some would relate) armor to have certain effects and thus making each item unique in its own right. It would require certain skills to apply this and would require the consumption of hunting loot plus some rare items like gems (tier gems) or other stuff. This would also improve players attitude by helping improve the dpp curve. Enhancers isn't enough.

Additionally the improving of gear through tiers (turnover) is also very important. I would love the opportunity through major use to get say a mod fap. It could still take 180kped of time and tiers costs but it is staggered expenditure.

I see a lot of these ideas as a way to improve markup in various professions and that is severely needed.. especially in hunting.
 
Completely agree, it is a bit silly how many useless bps there are now.

Doesn't really give me motivation or comfort in buying the new ones, when I have over 50k invested already with so many that now are junk.

For example since it was mentioned....the ultra rare 1.00 qr mark.6a plate bp I own....the alien acid shot thru the roof from 147% to 1000% thanks to the introduction of biogenic fluid, and the drops shifting to a select few players in a pvp enabled CP dungeon. Pretty much killed the BP, its not worth crafting or even worth gathering myself. Soon this effect will be seen.

Considering I could sell these for the last few years at +7,+8 with a nice small but regular affordable markup, I have a hard time listing them for 3x the cost with a smaller profit without feeling like I am still ripping my buyers off 3x as much as I should be.

Not to mention selling these or any armor set is a pain at 7 necessary pieces and only 30 auction slots, plus whatever else crafted stuff people need. I wont get into the few crafters using a multitude of auction bots to monopolize many things on top of it all.....

Just pushes the cost up for everyone, and lowers value and desire of bps, and demotivates starting crafters.

It also eliminates a demand for miners goods.
That same 6a BP I used to buy Alferix by the hundreds every week....now I don't ever need it.
(this was a great BP...the best one I have.... for getting some of those rare footguard blueprint drops)
The miners who supplied it lost nice regular business on a fairly nice markup item.

I love crafting, I am lucky to have so many options I can roll with the changes, but its ridiculous and I feel for those who don't have other options to fall back on.

Thats just the crafting side.....

Rikers, Korss, so many other things that used to drop in Hunting that are never seen as well.
Or things like the partrs that used to drop in hunting for many items.
Which was nice for hunters to get occasional markup goods....better than animal oils.

I don't know what the answer is, but you are dead on, something should be done.
 
Was just thinking i should have started the thread title with Adapt/Rework/Customize but maybe a third hierarchy of modifiers would be interesting for gear upgraded via refining. Then again, they haven't even used the adapted/reworked/customized modifiers (which were for levels of superior crafted items the same way adjusted/improved/modified are used for looted items) since The Dumbing Down of PE campaign began. (Yeah, that's right: there's no such thing as a mod evil amp. There is, however, a customized evil amp. ;))

No other input on this thread topic?
 
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Was just thinking i should have started the thread title with Adapt/Rework/Customize but maybe a third hierarchy of modifiers would be interesting for gear upgraded via refining. Then again, they haven't even used the adapted/reworked/customized modifiers (which were for levels of superior crafted items the same way adjusted/improved/modified are used for looted items) since The Dumbing Down of PE campaign began. (Yeah, that's right: there's no such thing as a mod evil amp. There is, however, a customized evil amp. ;))

No other input on this thread topic?

I'm still reading up on the forum since missing some days, sorry. I think the bad news is that whatever is done, it will only add to the number of items in EU. Some of this is unavoidable, and really, happens in the real world too. As an example, hardly anybody wears a "arming cote" any more ;-)

I think the move being able to make adj/improved/modified armor plates was a good idea, even if I have paid ridiculous amounts for bones I have used in the making. I think having 3x bones drop, with 3x less MU would be better as it would then be a much more credible sink for armor plates then. Also, more plates should be added to the mix, 6B and 5D at least.

Likewise, I think that it would be a reasonable idea to be able to have a similar sink for armors and as a process create markup. But instead of using another magic item, the new generic items people loot and just TT as there is no actual use for these should IMHO be used. Plus possibly robot components. It would hopefully also enable some more of markup to be returned to hunting loot as well.

Consider the following :

Low armors:

  • Warrior ( 5 stab, 5 cut, 5 imp, 2.5 pene, 5 burn; 1100 )
    • Adj (5 stab, 6 cut, 6 imp, 2.5 pene, 6 burn ; 2100)
    • Imp ( 6 stab, 6 cut, 6 imp, 3.5 pene, 7 burn ; 3100 )
    • Mod ( 7 stab, 7 cut, 7 imp, 3.5 pene, 7 burn ; 4100 )
  • Vindicator (2 stab; 11 cut; 4 imp; 800 dura)
    • Adj (2 stab; 14 cut; 4 imp; 1800 dura)
    • Imp (4 stab; 14 cut; 6 imp; 2800 dura)
    • Mod (5 stab; 16 cut; 6 imp; 3800 dura)
  • Rascal (5 cut, 15; imp 12 burn; 1700 dura)
    • Adj (6 cut, 16 imp; 13 burn; 2700 dura)
    • Imp (7 cut, 17 imp; 14 burn; 3700 dura)
    • Mod (8 cut, 18 imp; 15 burn; 4700 dura)
  • Goblin (12 imp; 9 acid; 1200 dura)
    • Adj (12 imp; 12 acid; 2200 dura)
    • Imp (13 imp; 14 acid; 3200 dura)
    • Mod (15 imp; 15 acid; 4200 dura)
  • Kobold ( 3 cut, 13 imp, 8 burn, 12 cold; 1750 )
    • Adj ( 3 cut, 14 imp, 8 burn, 14 cold; 2750)
    • Imp ( 4 cut, 14 imp, 9 burn, 15 cold; 3750 )
    • Mod ( 4 cut, 14 imp, 10 burn, 17 cold; 4750 )

The formula is 3 points + 1000 durability increase per level. Which is a nice increase to armor eco and should motivate people to go through with it.

Mid armors

  • Zombie (10 stab, 12 cut, 17 impact, 10 burn, 10 cold, 10 electric; 1800)
    • Adj (11 stab, 13 cut, 18 impact, 10 burn, 10 cold, 10 electric; 2800)
    • Imp (11 stab, 13 cut, 18 impact, 10 burn, 11 cold, 12 electric; 3800)
    • Mod (11 stab, 13 cut, 19 impact, 10 burn, 11 cold, 14 electric; 4800)
  • Ghost (13 stab, 15 cut, 19 impact, 11 burn, 12 cold, 11 electric; 2000)
    • Adj (14 stab, 16 cut, 20 impact, 11 burn, 13 cold, 11 electric; 3000)
    • Imp (14 stab, 17 cut, 21 impact, 11 burn, 14 cold, 11 electric; 4000)
    • Mod (15 stab, 16 cut, 22 impact, 11 burn, 15 cold, 11 electric; 5000)
  • Phantom (14 stab, 15 cut, 25 impact, 18 burn, 12 cold, 11 electric; 2200)
    • Adj (14 stab, 15 cut, 27 impact, 19 burn, 12 cold, 11 electric; 3200)
    • Imp (15 stab, 16 cut, 28 impact, 19 burn, 12 cold, 11 electric; 4200)
    • Mod (15 stab, 16 cut, 28 impact, 20 burn, 14 cold, 11 electric; 5200)
  • Gremlin (11 stab, 9 cut, 15 imp, 12 burn, 12 acid; 2950)
    • Adj (11 stab, 9 cut, 16 imp, 12 burn, 14 acid; 3950)
    • Imp (12 stab, 9 cut, 16 imp, 12 burn, 16 acid; 4950)
    • Mod (12 stab, 9 cut, 17 imp, 12 burn, 18 acid; 5950)

I tried to keep at what seems to have been the target for the armors, except that Zombie got a bunch of extra electric to differentiate it more from Ghost. It feels like the mid end armors should get a bigger boost at each step. If you are going to burn up 8 sets of Phantom, the end result had better be good, and this formula doesn't look good enough for it. Then again, it is also purely formulaic, real balancing should be able to do better.
 
Thanks for your comments. Two things i think were missed i was trying to convey in first post.

I'm still reading up on the forum since missing some days, sorry. I think the bad news is that whatever is done, it will only add to the number of items in EU. Some of this is unavoidable, and really, happens in the real world too. As an example, hardly anybody wears a "arming cote" any more ;-)

I'm not saying there shouldn't be new/better items, just that there is pointless abandonment of items that constitute the core of bp books and planet history. New items can be created that take advantage of our familiarity with the hierarchy of existing items, either by upgrading said items (adj/imp/mod, adapted/reworked/customized) or making a "mark II", III, etc. This has the double advantage of reducing the confusion of dealing with so many items (because of existing knowledge about the progression etc.) and keeping old, classic items relevant in some way.

I think the move being able to make adj/improved/modified armor plates was a good idea, even if I have paid ridiculous amounts for bones I have used in the making. I think having 3x bones drop, with 3x less MU would be better as it would then be a much more credible sink for armor plates then. Also, more plates should be added to the mix, 6B and 5D at least.

Likewise, I think that it would be a reasonable idea to be able to have a similar sink for armors and as a process create markup. But instead of using another magic item, the new generic items people loot and just TT as there is no actual use for these should IMHO be used. Plus possibly robot components. It would hopefully also enable some more of markup to be returned to hunting loot as well.

Consider the following :

Low armors:

  • Warrior ( 5 stab, 5 cut, 5 imp, 2.5 pene, 5 burn; 1100 )
    • Adj (5 stab, 6 cut, 6 imp, 2.5 pene, 6 burn ; 2100)
    • Imp ( 6 stab, 6 cut, 6 imp, 3.5 pene, 7 burn ; 3100 )
    • Mod ( 7 stab, 7 cut, 7 imp, 3.5 pene, 7 burn ; 4100 )
  • Vindicator (2 stab; 11 cut; 4 imp; 800 dura)
    • Adj (2 stab; 14 cut; 4 imp; 1800 dura)
    • Imp (4 stab; 14 cut; 6 imp; 2800 dura)
    • Mod (5 stab; 16 cut; 6 imp; 3800 dura)
  • Rascal (5 cut, 15; imp 12 burn; 1700 dura)
    • Adj (6 cut, 16 imp; 13 burn; 2700 dura)
    • Imp (7 cut, 17 imp; 14 burn; 3700 dura)
    • Mod (8 cut, 18 imp; 15 burn; 4700 dura)
  • Goblin (12 imp; 9 acid; 1200 dura)
    • Adj (12 imp; 12 acid; 2200 dura)
    • Imp (13 imp; 14 acid; 3200 dura)
    • Mod (15 imp; 15 acid; 4200 dura)
  • Kobold ( 3 cut, 13 imp, 8 burn, 12 cold; 1750 )
    • Adj ( 3 cut, 14 imp, 8 burn, 14 cold; 2750)
    • Imp ( 4 cut, 14 imp, 9 burn, 15 cold; 3750 )
    • Mod ( 4 cut, 14 imp, 10 burn, 17 cold; 4750 )

The formula is 3 points + 1000 durability increase per level. Which is a nice increase to armor eco and should motivate people to go through with it.

Mid armors

  • Zombie (10 stab, 12 cut, 17 impact, 10 burn, 10 cold, 10 electric; 1800)
    • Adj (11 stab, 13 cut, 18 impact, 10 burn, 10 cold, 10 electric; 2800)
    • Imp (11 stab, 13 cut, 18 impact, 10 burn, 11 cold, 12 electric; 3800)
    • Mod (11 stab, 13 cut, 19 impact, 10 burn, 11 cold, 14 electric; 4800)
  • Ghost (13 stab, 15 cut, 19 impact, 11 burn, 12 cold, 11 electric; 2000)
    • Adj (14 stab, 16 cut, 20 impact, 11 burn, 13 cold, 11 electric; 3000)
    • Imp (14 stab, 17 cut, 21 impact, 11 burn, 14 cold, 11 electric; 4000)
    • Mod (15 stab, 16 cut, 22 impact, 11 burn, 15 cold, 11 electric; 5000)
  • Phantom (14 stab, 15 cut, 25 impact, 18 burn, 12 cold, 11 electric; 2200)
    • Adj (14 stab, 15 cut, 27 impact, 19 burn, 12 cold, 11 electric; 3200)
    • Imp (15 stab, 16 cut, 28 impact, 19 burn, 12 cold, 11 electric; 4200)
    • Mod (15 stab, 16 cut, 28 impact, 20 burn, 14 cold, 11 electric; 5200)
  • Gremlin (11 stab, 9 cut, 15 imp, 12 burn, 12 acid; 2950)
    • Adj (11 stab, 9 cut, 16 imp, 12 burn, 14 acid; 3950)
    • Imp (12 stab, 9 cut, 16 imp, 12 burn, 16 acid; 4950)
    • Mod (12 stab, 9 cut, 17 imp, 12 burn, 18 acid; 5950)

I tried to keep at what seems to have been the target for the armors, except that Zombie got a bunch of extra electric to differentiate it more from Ghost. It feels like the mid end armors should get a bigger boost at each step. If you are going to burn up 8 sets of Phantom, the end result had better be good, and this formula doesn't look good enough for it. Then again, it is also purely formulaic, real balancing should be able to do better.

No need to limit plate upgrades to the top tier. Make most UL plates combinable for upgraded durability (and in select cases, protection or buff upgrades as befits the item; for example, we have a "vampire" armor. The imp and mod upgrades should gain a very small degree of vampiric effect like the cloak. Obviously the upgrade ingredient would have to be relatively rare for such a buff but at the same time the protection is so low as to make it relatively useless for big-game hunters, but of some use to small mob grinders. These upgrades should be useful at all levels of play and give all players something to work towards by dropping from mobs appropriate for the upgrade in question. Make robot parts part of it as well. Give us uses for resources...

And again, not all upgrades need to increase damage protection. Most of the old light armors were useful in the past in the right contexts for grinding smaller mobs. They've only become obsolete because of poor durability compared to (L) armors, not their protection. This also reduces confusion because the armor/weapon remains similar to the one we are familiar with. I think it was silly to drop mod shogun and angel and whatever else it was that dropped that were SO much better than the originals. They should have been slightly better in protection at best and much better in durability. It just makes things more confusing when "mod shogun" is more like angel (just for example from what i recall).

The devs have really missed out on the market that eco players represent until recently (with the new scope and sight, etc). I think uber eco items should be introduced as event rewards and upgrades, not just uber damage/protection rewards. Think of how nice a Customized Rascal set would be, with 6k durability but the same protections; or imp pixie from upgrading an adj pixie set, with improved elemental protection and durability.

ETA: If the upgrade progression is standardized for plates and armors and etc, both in naming and the effect on stats, if would be easier both for devs to implement and for players to comprehend (going back to the idea of new/improved items without increasing confusion). For naming i'd suggest sticking with adj/imp/mod for looted items, and basing it on refining with the base model and looted ingredient(s) (like the 5B plate upgrades), and adapted/reworked/customized for manufactured items, and basing it on limited BPs that consume the original manufactured object and looted ingredient(s) (somewhat like the misnamed imp/mod evil amps). The stat change could be a 10% increase in each protection type (in 0.5 increments), and +1.5k durability.
There would be some specific exceptions to keep it interesting, both in these stats and extras like buffs, but if they can decide on some default it would reduce confusion while greatly expanding options for pursuing gear upgrades etc and give small, attainable goals to players.
 
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And again, not all upgrades need to increase damage protection. Most of the old light armors were useful in the past in the right contexts for grinding smaller mobs. They've only become obsolete because of poor durability compared to (L) armors, not their protection. This also reduces confusion because the armor/weapon remains similar to the one we are familiar with. I think it was silly to drop mod shogun and angel and whatever else it was that dropped that were SO much better than the originals. They should have been slightly better in protection at best and much better in durability. It just makes things more confusing when "mod shogun" is more like angel (just for example from what i recall).

You are right of course, I was totally not thinking. I use weak armors myself regularily, my set of Warrior will take me through the Argo Bornze, and Atrox and Maffoid Iron mission chains. So indeed, the defence is ok, it would be fine to just get TT and durability increases. And maybe a small buff for upgrade level III (mod / reworked / customized/whatever) .

The devs have really missed out on the market that eco players represent until recently (with the new scope and sight, etc). I think uber eco items should be introduced as event rewards and upgrades, not just uber damage/protection rewards. Think of how nice a Customized Rascal set would be, with 6k durability but the same protections; or imp pixie from upgrading an adj pixie set, with improved elemental protection and durability.

Yep, indeed. Something tricky with armor upgrades will be tiers - existing and post-upgrade.
 
Thumbs up. Keep it up!
 
As previously eluded to in your first post Doer, it would be great if other buffs could be included in adapted/reworked/customized armours.

For example, a light edition armour could have a speed buff (i.e. Raven armour (in description, "light shadow")) could be reworked to give +10% metabolic.

Tiger could have +CH, while Lion +HP.

Or the buffs could be linked to the chains of armours - as an example:

Animal series = Hunting, so they give +CH, +Crit Dmg, +attack speed for different levels of customisation.
Zombie series = Tanking, so they give +HP, +evade, +metabolic rate
"Knight series" (samurai, shogun, knight, paladin etc) = melee buffs, such as enhanced durability on weapons, +evade.

Others could be purely about protection (Angel, Shadow), and others still could have unique buff combos to make them worthwhile owning again (Paradox)

Potential for armour combinations also? Salamander/Viking mix? Thunderbird/Gremlin?
 
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