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Question: 2nd drop finding closer than 1st drop finding? Did it happen before?

Wally

Wally

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Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Posts
130
Location
Bucharest, Romania
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Calypso Thunderstruck
Avatar Name
Pedro Wally Stormrage
Last night mining on Eudoria:
- 1 st drop (ore + enmat) -> Crude Oil, 460m depth 12,2m from drop spot
- 2 nd drop, same spot (enmat) -> Crude Oil, 482m depth, 2,2m from drop spot, just in front of me... :eyecrazy:
:confused:
WTF? I did not move between drops, 20 secs apart...
And happened again 2 more times... so it was not a glitch.

From my mining experience, you first find the deposits close to you, then with each drop farther and farther away, not the other way arround.
Even LBML is based on this assumption...

Did it happen to you recently?
Did MA changed something in mining... again???
What could be the explanation?

:confused:
 
Wally said:
...

:confused:
Click to expand...

First thing that comes to mind:

length of tangential vector drop 1 = sqrt(460^2+12.5^2) = ~460m
length of tangential vector drop 2 = sqrt(482^2+2.2^2) = ~482m

I've often wondered if the length of tangential vector was a factor in finds, but never found a rebomb close enough to measure it (mostly cos I don't often re-bomb, to be fair)


Got the measurements of the other drops?
 
Wally said:
Last night mining on Eudoria:
- 1 st drop (ore + enmat) -> Crude Oil, 460m depth 12,2m from drop spot
- 2 nd drop, same spot (enmat) -> Crude Oil, 482m depth, 2,2m from drop spot, just in front of me... :eyecrazy:
:confused:
WTF? I did not move between drops, 20 secs apart...
And happened again 2 more times... so it was not a glitch.

From my mining experience, you first find the deposits close to you, then with each drop farther and farther away, not the other way arround.
Even LBML is based on this assumption...

Did it happen to you recently?
Did MA changed something in mining... again???
What could be the explanation?

:confused:
Click to expand...

Got one of those too.

Never happened before the update, so maybe we should ask for more info... Bug or Feature?™
 
Maybe it goes by depth, with shallower finds found first now?
 
Serica said:
First thing that comes to mind:

length of tangential vector drop 1 = sqrt(460^2+12.5^2) = ~460m
length of tangential vector drop 2 = sqrt(482^2+2.2^2) = ~482m

I've often wondered if the length of tangential vector was a factor in finds, but never found a rebomb close enough to measure it (mostly cos I don't often re-bomb, to be fair)


Got the measurements of the other drops?
Click to expand...

I also thought about the vector. Never before was in question...
If you remember correctly the community decision was that findings were in 2D and depth's importance was only for detectability of rare resources.

I will try to search the LBML screenshots to calculate in other cases also...

If this is not a bug but a feature introduced in last update, Ido should be notified to research this and change LBML behavior.
 
Wally said:
I also thought about the vector. Never before was in question...
If you remember correctly the community decision was that findings were in 2D and depth's importance was only for detectability of rare resources.

I will try to search the LBML screenshots to calculate in other cases also...

If this is not a bug but a feature introduced in last update, Ido should be notified to research this and change LBML behavior.
Click to expand...

I don't recall any extensive testing of this being reported on the forum. Unless the two claims are very close together, the use of vector distance instead of surface radius might be almost undetectable.

I'll be interested to see a body of data posted on this by miners who keep extensive records.
 
I actually do not mine almost at all, but sometimes I drop a bomb.

I have noticed exactly the same thing, did accidental second drop and got a claim that was closer then previous one.

Was wondering what is going on..

Btw this was like a week or two back, so before the patch.
 
Two years ago, i did tests on radius and 1st with 2nd drops. I never had the 2nd claim closer than the first.

Just FYI from 2 years ago

Rgds

Ace
 
14.5x2 types found on first bomb
15.11ore only
25.1xore only
16.9xore only
15.51Both found enmatter closer
13.4xen only
17.4xen only
20.11ore only
20.3xore only
19.5xBoth found enmatter closer
16xen only
14.4xen only
15.91ore only
20.11en only
17.3xore only
20.2xore only
10.31en only
6.4xore onlyboth
9.8xen only
16.5xore onlyboth
15.4xen only
11.3xen only
23.9xore only
201en only?
23xore only
27.3xore onlyboth
26.9xen only
37.8xore only
39.5xore only
28.41ore onlybehind
12.7xore onlyinfront
38.9xen onlybehind
35.8xore onlybehind
29.51ore onlybothinfront
341ore onlyinfront
14.6xen onlybehind
7.9xen onlybehind
37.3xore onlybehind
40.6xore onlyinfront
12xore onlyinfront
6.61en onlybehind
17.1xore onlybehind
40xore onlybehind
19.5xen onlyinfront
41.6xen onlyinfront
20xen onlybehind
3.6xore onlybehind
29.7xore onlybehind
20.2xore onlyinfront
29xen onlyinfront
25.61en onlybehind
27.3xore onlybehind
16.21en onlybehind
25.2xore onlybehind
36.8xore onlyinfront
25.5xore onlyinfront
24.4xen onlyinfront
301en onlyinfront
40.8xore onlybehind
20.51ore onlybehind
23.5xore onlybehind
7.8xore onlyinfront
25.9xore onlyinfront
16.41ore onlyinfront
23xore onlyinfront
28.2xen onlyinfront
28.7xen onlyinfront
16.4xen onlyinfront
8.21en onlyinfront
33.5xore onlyinfront
1.6xen onlyinfront
25.2xen onlyinfront
12.1xen onlybehind
34.8xore onlybehind
32.7xore onlyinfront
15.3xore onlybothbehind
33.8xen onlyinfront
14.1xore onlyinfront
9.21en onlybehind
14.7xen onlybehind
26.91ore onlyinfront
17.5xen onlyinfront
19.2xore onlyinfront
10.8xore onlyinfront
22.2xen onlybehind
9.91ore onlybothinfront
15.5xen onlyinfront
20.6xen onlyinfront
19.1xore onlybehind
14.61en onlyinfront
15.6xen onlyinfront


This won't mean a lot to most people, but i did tests like these, to see, If i find a claim do i find a second, to work out %'s.

In all those tests i never found the 2nd claim closer
 
This has always been possible, it just means that a claim spawned right after your first drop. Not a common thing, but it has to happen sometimes.
 
What I noticed when I returned to mining was that the claims was nearer to me then ever before.
old way was a lot of running back to drill the claim , now they seems to be way closer to me even when running.
 
TACUTTING said:
What I noticed when I returned to mining was that the claims was nearer to me then ever before.
old way was a lot of running back to drill the claim , now they seems to be way closer to me even when running.
Click to expand...

Yes. I drop only one amp per week now but noticed that. And bombing the claim still works as it used to? I cant recall second claim from same range, but ofc with that few bombs...
 
I promised that i come with more insights.

Found some evidence of that only in the runs from 15th of June till now.
From the cases I found screenshots, here are the facts:

DateDropx dropy dropelev droptypex claimy claimelev claimdistcalc distdepthcalc vector
29.iun.1418435290166?ore843289014811530,230,00780780,58
29.iun.1418435290166?enmat8430890145110?48,75581583,04
29.iun.1428435290166?enmat843539013812128,528,02396396,99
15.iun.1418481396471?ore848049651713846,346,87803804,37
15.iun.1418481396471?enmat8481696448141?23,19647647,42
15.iun.1428481396471?enmat847889647413925,725,18891891,36

Seems that just in one case, apart from the one I started the thread with, the vector is greater.
There is the probability, as Neil pointed out, to be a respawn just as I bombed... to much of a coincidence. :scratch2:

From what I analysed there are some facts: :wise:
1. As you see, calculated distance vs. tool shown distance points that even your elevation and the claim elevation is taken into account
2. In 2 out of 3 cases the vector is important
3. This fact appeared after 15th of June (as of my records) - I have to search deeper!
4. Up until now I noticed it only on enmatter.

I wait for your opinions... and analysis... to nail the thing out.
 
jupiajo said:
Yes. I drop only one amp per week now but noticed that. And bombing the claim still works as it used to? I cant recall second claim from same range, but ofc with that few bombs...
Click to expand...

Bombing the claim does not work as it used to be.
I use now rebombing in the same spot if the finds are close.
I even found 6 claims in 3 rebombings (3 times ore + enmat)... so this for sure works :)
 
Wally said:
Bombing the claim does not work as it used to be.
I use now rebombing in the same spot if the finds are close.
I even found 6 claims in 3 rebombings (3 times ore + enmat)... so this for sure works :)
Click to expand...

Which is odd because in days of mining since the last VU, I have no had a single claim from a rebomb. Almost makes me wonder whether there's some variable that gets assigned different values to different users that affects this. That or something just got messed up in the last VU.
 
Yip this does happen :)
 
Happened to me a couple times by accident on Arkadia, when I started in Entropia almost 2 years ago.
Was only those times and I couldn't mimic that by purpose.
But lately I do mining more professional mostly on RT and FOMA/HELL and using LBML always!
If you see my drops on planet side...are almost 70%-80% overlapping each other!!!
Why? Because hitting one over another is so common now that I can't leave a spot with one drop only!
I discovered that also by accident and then tried again and again. Findings are close or even one - over another as you describe.
 
As I took a break from mining for the summer, I can hardly wait to start mining again and see if anything changed.
:)

On the other hand, did any of you stumbled upon claims finds closer than the previous one at rebombing?
Or, finding a claim in a NRF area previously bombed a few minutes before?
 
Last edited:
Wally said:
As I took a break from mining for the summer, I can hardly wait to start mining again and see if anything changed.
:)

On the other hand, did any of you stumbled upon claims finds closer than the previous one at rebombing?
Or, finding a claim in a NRF area previously bombed a few minutes before?
Click to expand...

I'm talking about rebombing without moving and almost instantly and the next one is somewhere around not exactly in the same spot I found the previous.
If you try the same spot later or next day probably it will be dry or sometimes you can claim something different.
I come back in the same spot about 5-7 days later for the same finding.
 
Last edited:
Serica said:
First thing that comes to mind:

length of tangential vector drop 1 = sqrt(460^2+12.5^2) = ~460m
length of tangential vector drop 2 = sqrt(482^2+2.2^2) = ~482m

I've often wondered if the length of tangential vector was a factor in finds, but never found a rebomb close enough to measure it (mostly cos I don't often re-bomb, to be fair)


Got the measurements of the other drops?
Click to expand...

It calls Pythagoras Theorem and prove that first claim is closer then second, i always rebomb and its pretty common find 2nd drop find closer then 1st drop find, but always more deep!

u can even find claims in same pos, but at different depth!
 
I used to think it was based it off the distance from the average search depth of a given set-up. Meaning the resource found was the FIRST one found while radiating out a search from the loci underground that is determined by the average search depth. But that's wrong.

Example of a situation we commonly see:
Double bomb from same spot.
Avg search depth 1000 meters
Claim 1: 1 meter from position, found at 1150 meters.
Claim 2: 20 meters away from position, found at 1000 meters

In that example, the first claim looks closer to your avatar, but it is not closer to the loci of the avg search depth. How is it finding that first?

Having found over 200 claims in the same spot by double bombing, about 95% of the time the second claim is linearly farther from my avatars position.

So it seems the x/y axis (long and lat) is favored over the z (depth), because if it wasn't, by vectoring from the average search depth loci, I should find a hell of a lot more second claims that are closer to my avatar linearly then the first claim, because of depth, but that simply doesn't happen.

I wish I was better at math, because it just makes no sense that it would find claim 1 first in the above example. But it does. Given what I have seen over many years, it now seems like it completely ignores depth, and the 5% aberration is just due to what Stockton said (a claim re-spawning)

I just don't understand how the program, or the equation, that doesn't seem to radiate out from a z position would be written, or expressed.... At this point my mind gets confused, and so I leave it to the very smart people to explain it.

Why is the second claim farther away linearly, 95% of the time?
 
Last edited:
since there are a lot of Pro's miners here, I want to refer why I started to do re-bombing!
The idea came when I noticed that LBML trace of my range shrinking after a claim found!!!
For example, when you do a drop and your LBML is set at finder range (55m) the circle stamp trace of that drop goes in that range, blue, green or pink if you trying for all three findings.
When I do found something, sometimes this trace stamp shrinks to 15-20m???
That was an indication for me for another drop in the same spot and in many cases LBML telling me the truth, there is another finding outside of this small circle.
If anyone else noticed, that I will be much appreciate to hear an exlanation to this too.

btw lots of good posts are already above, but can't +rep anyone since I'm out of credits :)
 
Billy Jean Ruby said:
since there are a lot of Pro's miners here, I want to refer why I started to do re-bombing!
The idea came when I noticed that LBML trace of my range shrinking after a claim found!!!
For example, when you do a drop and your LBML is set at finder range (55m) the circle stamp trace of that drop goes in that range, blue, green or pink if you trying for all three findings.
When I do found something, sometimes this trace stamp shrinks to 15-20m???
That was an indication for me for another drop in the same spot and in many cases LBML telling me the truth, there is another finding outside of this small circle.
If anyone else noticed, that I will be much appreciate to hear an exlanation to this too.

btw lots of good posts are already above, but can't +rep anyone since I'm out of credits :)
Click to expand...

yes, thats how LBML works....say you are looking for ore only, and you find a claim 10 meters away, running past that claim so your new search radius overlaps some of the prior search radius is fine, as long as that previous claim is not in ur new search radius as shown on LBML. That means, in theory, you are never overlapping, even though part of the new search radius goes a bit into the old search radius.

So the best thing to do is ignore the large search radius, and just exclude the small search radius designated after the claim is found, if you want to drop lots of bombs in a small area because its hot.
 
Sunsout Gunsout said:
yes, thats how LBML works....say you are looking for ore only, and you find a claim 10 meters away, running past that claim so your new search radius overlaps some of the prior search radius is fine, as long as that previous claim is not in ur new search radius as shown on LBML. That means, in theory, you are never overlapping, even though part of the new search radius goes a bit into the old search radius.

So the best thing to do is ignore the large search radius, and just exclude the small search radius designated after the claim is found, if you want to drop lots of bombs in a small area because its hot.
Click to expand...

I usualy rebomb if remaining area of the bomb circle is worth giving the pecs. Otherwise I cover the area by future bombs overlapping.
Just to add some calculations to what Sunsout said:

RadiusCircle area% of area1-% area
0,100,031415927 1% 99%
0,200,125663706 4% 96%
0,250,196349541 6% 94%
0,330,34211944 11% 89%
0,500,785398163 25% 75%
0,661,36847776 44% 56%
0,751,767145868 56% 44%
0,802,010619298 64% 36%
0,902,544690049 81% 19%
1,003,141592654 100% 0%
 
Wally said:
I usualy rebomb if remaining area of the bomb circle is worth giving the pecs. Otherwise I cover the area by future bombs overlapping.
Just to add some calculations to what Sunsout said:

RadiusCircle area% of area1-% area
0,100,031415927 1% 99%
0,200,125663706 4% 96%
0,250,196349541 6% 94%
0,330,34211944 11% 89%
0,500,785398163 25% 75%
0,661,36847776 44% 56%
0,751,767145868 56% 44%
0,802,010619298 64% 36%
0,902,544690049 81% 19%
1,003,141592654 100% 0%
Click to expand...

I never looked at it like that, and I want to make sure I understand this correctly...

SO if your first column is the radius away from the avatar that the claim spawns...then on normal planet mining, a claim that is roughly 5 meters from where you dropped means you only searched 1 % of that area? If so, that is much less than I thought it would be. But that is very good info to know.
 
Wally said:
I usualy rebomb if remaining area of the bomb circle is worth giving the pecs. Otherwise I cover the area by future bombs overlapping.
Just to add some calculations to what Sunsout said:

RadiusCircle area% of area1-% area
0,100,031415927 1% 99%
0,200,125663706 4% 96%
0,250,196349541 6% 94%
0,330,34211944 11% 89%
0,500,785398163 25% 75%
0,661,36847776 44% 56%
0,751,767145868 56% 44%
0,802,010619298 64% 36%
0,902,544690049 81% 19%
1,003,141592654 100% 0%
Click to expand...

Why are you using 100m as the normal radius?

A circle with 10m radius is 3.3% of the area of a 55m circle, 20m radius is 13.2%, etc.
 
starting to think that claims subject... remind me another MMO!
When I was searched for "space anomalies" and wormholes with my probes(in 3D space!)
I wonder
If we should be start to think instead of circle/one dimension (like LBML trace) to a sphere/3d trace? :scratch2:
I suppose that is the bottom line here
 
Neil Stockton said:
Why are you using 100m as the normal radius?

A circle with 10m radius is 3.3% of the area of a 55m circle, 20m radius is 13.2%, etc.
Click to expand...

I thought he was giving as % of radius....meaning a claim .10 % of radius away from the center means only 1% of the full 54m radius was searched. (54^.10=5.4 meters) But maybe I am confused
 
Sunsout Gunsout said:
I thought he was giving as % of radius....meaning a claim .10 % of radius away from the center means only 1% of the full 54m radius was searched. (54^.10=5.4 meters) But maybe I am confused
Click to expand...

You are corect, at 10% of radius you are covering 1% of the search circle.
At least this is what the geometry says (circle area is Pi*square(R))
I used 1=100% as max radius, be it 55m on some finders, 50 or 45 on others.
The calculations are just for %, to realise how much of the surface is covered by which percentage of radius.
Sorry for not making it much clearer.

PS @Billy - this is only for efficiently covering an area. Let's not talk about returns in the field.
That's another painfull subject :banghead:
 
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