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Melee Trauma Amplifiers

sachi.mk2 said:
I guess time will tell, but none of the TEN items have gone up in price since the TEN event finished and the items stopped dropping. For at least four or five years, there hasn't been many items which have "bounced" back in price once it's gone down. I think I posted a month or so ago in this thread the amps would be 2k and 5k, and I think that's where they will balance out at long term. I don't currently see huge demand for items like the corrosive dagger, and I don't think there will ever be a huge rush to skill melee because it has so many drawbacks.
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Sachi,

Being a big fan of the melee profession (shortblades user here), I disagree with your last sentence on the "rush to skill melee because it has so many drawbacks". There should be no rush, but in my opinion there are certain advantages that I do enjoy. To name a few are being able to increase my HP; personal weight capacity; and especially with the recent melee amps being able to do more DPS and be more ECO with my shortblades. I will admit that I do not know too much about the fluctuation or economy of the past items in regards to the TEN items, but I do see a great 'steady future' value for melee users imo.

Don't mean to go off topic here, but if MA decides to open up amps for Mind Force users; then the same advantages that I had pointed out in melee 'could' be applied and focused on MF as well.

Only time will tell - cheers,
Vi
 
HP and the carry weight are definitely nice pros Vi. But on balance, it's heavily outweighed by, to name a few:

1. More armor decay.
2. Need expensive armor to hunt higher level armor, can kill them before they hit with some rifles.
3. DPS is lower cause you have to run to mob.
4. DPS is lower cause you have to fap more and get mobbed more.
5. DPP is lower cause of number 4.
6. Not many uber melee weapons.
7. No 40+ dmg amps like mod evil.
8. Bad for team hunts.
9. Bad for shared mobs.
10. Bad for mayhem and events.
11. Laser has more eco amps.
12. Laser has a better range of small amps.
13. Laser has far higher dps and dpp weapons.
14. Better selection of newbie range weapons.

I personally think the amps are great for melee users, and they will hold their value. I just haven't seen a huge rush to buy-up UL melee weapons. Which is odd, as the amps are new and this is the time it should happen, but it hasnt.

Personally for HP, I'd prefer to buy a 100-200ped chip of melee combat for 2000ped, it would save me a lot of defense costs instead of doing it naturally. Plus melee combat will probably come down in price now more melee ped is cycled.

Hopefully you don't see the above as a flame on melee, it's just how I view it and why it will stay a niche profession and the demand likewise.
 
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sachi.mk2 said:
I guess time will tell, but none of the TEN items have gone up in price since the TEN event finished and the items stopped dropping.
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I beg to differ...

One TEN item in particular, also the one TEN item that I can think of that increases DPS and helps Eco for any weapon is the Arsonistic III TEN Edition... When they were looting, they were initially selling for 2k to 3k and now they sell for 7k to 8k minimum.

As far as TEN weapons go, they compete against all the other unlimited weapons that are available in a very diluted market but even still, most TEN items worth owning have at least held their value.

Long term, I hope melee amp prices come down, but short term, I don't think that will happen.
 
sachi.mk2 said:
HP and the carry weight are definitely nice pros Vi. But on balance, it's heavily outweighed by, to name a few:

1. More armor decay.
2. Need expensive armor to hunt higher level armor, can kill them before they hit with some rifles.
3. DPS is lower cause you have to run to mob.
4. DPS is lower cause you have to fap more and get mobbed more.
5. DPP is lower cause of number 4.
6. Not many uber melee weapons.
7. No 40+ dmg amps like mod evil.
8. Bad for team hunts.
9. Bad for shared mobs.
10. Bad for mayhem and events.
11. Laser has more eco amps.
12. Laser has a better range of small amps.
13. Laser has far higher dps and dpp weapons.
14. Better selection of newbie range weapons.
Click to expand...

Please name one Laser or BLP weapon that costs less than 5k and will give you 70+ DPS and 2.9xx DPP. With melee you can grab a low TT Ark blade and hit those kind of numbers with a melee amp.

Name one Laser or BLP weapon that costs under 15k that will give you over 100 DPS and 2.9 DPP

There are pros and cons to ranged and melee... when DPS and DPP is equal, Ranged weapons will almost always command a substantially higher price.
 
Fair point on the Arsonistic III TEN Edition, but I think that was mainly due to many range players not understanding they could use that item within their setup and the benefits it provided. Plus it's tier cost was changed. They do now. That's not the case with melee amps, people fully understand the benefits, but they also know the drawbacks of melee and why the demand isn't intense for melee. The Gazunga (Vincent) I saw for sale recently was a tier 5 at 25k, a friend bought a tier 0 at 32k, tier cost of a tier 5 is over 5k, so that decreased by 30% plus. The ASI TEN sold at 30-35k, now it can be bought at 20-22k, another 30% drop. The first mindforce TEN chips sold for 2000ped, now they don't sell at 1000ped. The Mindforce TEN chips following a similar trend to melee amps in the drop rate and decrease in price.
 
HardWrath said:
Please name one Laser or BLP weapon that costs less than 5k and will give you 70+ DPS and 2.9xx DPP. With melee you can grab a low TT Ark blade and hit those kind of numbers with a melee amp.

Name one Laser or BLP weapon that costs under 15k that will give you over 100 DPS and 2.9 DPP

There are pros and cons to ranged and melee... when DPS and DPP is equal, Ranged weapons will almost always command a substantially higher price.
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No point having 100 DPS if you can't hunt any decent mobs with it that have markup to cover the higher % of ped MA will take. And you can't hunt decent mobs with melee unless you have a high level armor, which of course, will cost a lot of ped.
 
sachi.mk2 said:
Fair point on the Arsonistic III TEN Edition, but I think that was mainly due to many range players not understanding they could use that item within their setup and the benefits it provided. Plus it's tier cost was changed. They do now. That's not the case with melee amps, people fully understand the benefits, but they also know the drawbacks of melee and why the demand isn't intense for melee. The Gazunga (Vincent) I saw for sale recently was a tier 5 at 25k, a friend bought a tier 0 at 32k, tier cost of a tier 5 is over 5k, so that decreased by 30% plus. The ASI TEN sold at 30-35k, now it can be bought at 20-22k, another 30% drop. The first mindforce TEN chips sold for 2000ped, now they don't sell at 1000ped. The Mindforce TEN chips following a similar trend to melee amps in the drop rate and decrease in price.
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The falling prices that we see in all ranged weapons is due too a lot of things, namely a saturated market. I believe that the slow decline in prices in high end gear is by design. Do you really believe that MindArk ever intended low level weapons to sell for 20k to 50k? No of course not.

MindArk overall has done a good job of bringing us through a managed decline over the years, as opposed to what could have happened... A complete crash. I still think prices for some ranged weapons are too high.

The primary advantage to melee over ranged is the price point. Good ranged weapons with even moderate DPS and DPP can't be had for anywhere near the price of melee weapons. For handgun users, of which there are a ton, the step down in range isn't huge nor is it meaningful. Historically, the advantage to handguns was the price point compared to rifles and carbines. Melee now shares that advantage.

Regardless of price advantages of melee, or range advantages of Carbines and Rifles, a lot of people want to skill melee for the HP, Strength, and skill point gains.... Aside from all that, some people just like melee. Same with MindForce, some people just like it.

sachi.mk2 said:
No point having 100 DPS if you can't hunt any decent mobs with it that have markup to cover the higher % of ped MA will take. And you can't hunt decent mobs with melee unless you have a high level armor, which of course, will cost a lot of ped.
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Well, let's just be honest here... How much would a level 50 SIB Carbine cost if it does 100+ DPS and has 2.9xx DPP? ...would it be a 100k+ gun?
 
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sachi.mk2 said:
No point having 100 DPS if you can't hunt any decent mobs with it that have markup to cover the higher % of ped MA will take. And you can't hunt decent mobs with melee unless you have a high level armor, which of course, will cost a lot of ped.
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This argument only has the view of being too noob to have decent armor, or too uber to get hit. Where's the mid level players? Not all mobs can be taken down before they reach you, the melee amps give you the option now of high dmg/sec for fractions of the 'big gun' costs. And with the mid level player perspective, having a melee amp that boosts dmg/sec and dmg/pec is great because it allows someone on like me to boost my melee/HP once the mobs reach me.
 
sachi.mk2 said:
No point having 100 DPS if you can't hunt any decent mobs with it that have markup to cover the higher % of ped MA will take. And you can't hunt decent mobs with melee unless you have a high level armor, which of course, will cost a lot of ped.
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I have a 100dps blade now thanks to the trauma amps, and my armor bills are negligible and my markup intake is enough to keep me playing.
 
TheLastKnight said:
This argument only has the view of being too noob to have decent armor, or too uber to get hit. Where's the mid level players? Not all mobs can be taken down before they reach you, the melee amps give you the option now of high dmg/sec for fractions of the 'big gun' costs. And with the mid level player perspective, having a melee amp that boosts dmg/sec and dmg/pec is great because it allows someone on like me to boost my melee/HP once the mobs reach me.
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The way I see it.

Say I had gremlin+5b, and a corrosive dagger. I managed to buy a melee amp. I can't think of any bigger mobs I could hunt. The change is I can hunt the same mobs but faster; which I don't find too exciting a prospect. Sure I can try and hunt bigger mobs, but I will do so inefficiently because my armor can't handle it. You can say the DPP is better with the amp, but my efficiency has gone down if I try a bigger mob. If I buy expensive armor to cover the gap, I may as well have bought a decent carbine instead.

The difference with a range gun, the better the carbine gets, the range, eco and DPS usually goes up. Which means I can hunt a bigger mob with the same efficiency. You skill longterm at rifle, you have an ML-35 at 5k, you can hunt chomper/sum/prot/malc/gformi/ amongst others with relative ease. I try any of those with a corrosive dagger and amp its probably 100ped+ extra defense cost per 1000ped; resulting effectively to 2.60 eco (10% decrease in efficiency). I think most mid level players have 2.60 eco on an ML-35.

Anyhow, It'll be my last post on the subject, I don't wanna flog a dead horse, and I guess we can agree to disagree. I can certainly see the attraction of melee amps, the price point that HardWarth mentions, added fun Narfi mentions etc.
 
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Many don't have high enough melee skills to use the higher dps melee options, because up till this summer melee was only low eco. Now many have started to skill melee and when they get high enough they're going to increase the demand for those packages.

Also you may not like melee but there are many who feel the pros outweigh the cons.
 
sachi.mk2 said:
The way I see it.

Say I had gremlin+5b, and a corrosive dagger. I managed to buy a melee amp. I can't think of any bigger mobs I could hunt. The change is I can hunt the same mobs but faster; which I don't find too exciting a prospect. Sure I can try and hunt bigger mobs, but I will do so inefficiently because my armor can't handle it. You can say the DPP is better with the amp, but my efficiency has gone down if I try a bigger mob. If I buy expensive armor to cover the gap, I may as well have bought a decent carbine instead.

The difference with a range gun, the better the carbine gets, the range, eco and DPS usually goes up. Which means I can hunt a bigger mob with the same efficiency. You skill longterm at rifle, you have an ML-35 at 5k, you can hunt chomper/sum/prot/malc/gformi/ amongst others with relative ease. I try any of those with a corrosive dagger and amp its probably 100ped+ extra defense cost per 1000ped; resulting effectively to 2.60 eco (10% decrease in efficiency). I think most mid level players have 2.60 eco on an ML-35.

Anyhow, It'll be my last post on the subject, I don't wanna flog a dead horse, and I guess we can agree to disagree. I can certainly see the attraction of melee amps, the price point that HardWarth mentions, added fun Narfi mentions etc.
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Agreed, if you can take a mob down without getting hit, or rarely, it's the smartest way to go. The point I was making was there are other mobs that are bigger and reach you quickly. The big aurli, scip, trox for example. Then there's the other planets. A mid level player that doesn't have the ped for a 20k+ gun can get a relatively cheap alternative with melee and do the real damage up close. But, alas, to each his own. :) + rep
 
I'm not a melee user as a primary profession, I'm actually skilling BLP Sniper close to Commando atm, but after that I'll be looking for the HP gains from melee. I've been wanting one of the IV's to fit to my mace for some on the side fun, and ever since these cool toys came out I've had in my mind that I would pay 2k for the IV. I've looted A and C samples, and bought a B to make the first amp, but today I just couldn't stand it anymore and bid on the Type D that I needed, and paid 2075 ped total for it. That was pretty much my max, I would have gone to 2.1k total, but not over.

For me, that is and has been the value for the IV as long as the migration has been going on. After migration is over, sure I hope the value goes up, but I suspect and am prepared for it to fall a little lower. How much? I don't know but if I've guessed correctly they'll stay above +1.75k and stick to around +2k for the foreseeable future, which is an excellent value imo.
 
sachi.mk2 said:
The way I see it.

Say I had gremlin+5b, and a corrosive dagger. I managed to buy a melee amp. I can't think of any bigger mobs I could hunt. The change is I can hunt the same mobs but faster; which I don't find too exciting a prospect. Sure I can try and hunt bigger mobs, but I will do so inefficiently because my armor can't handle it. You can say the DPP is better with the amp, but my efficiency has gone down if I try a bigger mob. If I buy expensive armor to cover the gap, I may as well have bought a decent carbine instead.

The difference with a range gun, the better the carbine gets, the range, eco and DPS usually goes up. Which means I can hunt a bigger mob with the same efficiency. You skill longterm at rifle, you have an ML-35 at 5k, you can hunt chomper/sum/prot/malc/gformi/ amongst others with relative ease. I try any of those with a corrosive dagger and amp its probably 100ped+ extra defense cost per 1000ped; resulting effectively to 2.60 eco (10% decrease in efficiency). I think most mid level players have 2.60 eco on an ML-35.

Anyhow, It'll be my last post on the subject, I don't wanna flog a dead horse, and I guess we can agree to disagree. I can certainly see the attraction of melee amps, the price point that HardWarth mentions, added fun Narfi mentions etc.
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With your reasoning quite a few UL SIB handguns would also be a bad choice, on the mobs you mention.

And as long as handguns remain at higher prices, melee amps ( the tool that makes the sword good ) should keep strong value, ofcourse there are some differences, but none that suggests the gap in value we have today should be permanent.

Atm price on melee amps are under pressure for a number of reasons.

1. New ones are beeing looted as long as migration lasts.

2. Most people havent discovered what a amp actually does to a 500 ped blade.

3. Many who would benefit from the "cheap" dps and eco that these amps provide dont yet have the skills to use the blades they make the most use on.

You cant place a value down the basement for an item based on " It sucks to hunt dasp with " reasoning, alot of people dont aim to hit the biggest mobs possible, and those who do probably own a good armor, fap and ranged rifle already.

I see in the future many new players going melee, it makes sense in a skill building way aswell, better defensive skills and your avatar grow.

Then you have the people who try and think further, i combine my aakas + IV with a RAW 404 +a104, and get the best of two worlds, at a combined price you wouldnt even get a LC-100 frontier for.

Eveyone will find their own way to adapt to this melee expansion of the game, either by not using it at all, or by using parts or going full melee. Either way the impact on market values will be there, weither beeing a drop on value of other things, or a raise of value on melee + amps, time will tell.
 
Some interesting points brought up.

Just want to say that sure, I could see Sachi's perspective if you were using ONLY melee. I just wouldn't go pure melee. My build is to shoot the mob at max range and then switch to bigger DPS/DPP melee at close combat. Ranged or melee unless the mob dies before it reaches you, which isn't always the case, eventually close combat will be warranted.. (Ranged mobs.. walk in as you shoot ranged? Can't say.. I'm a melee mob type hunter for evade not dodge atm..)

Ermik mentioned the price gap.. not to open that can of worms again.. but yes a lot of the melee amp combos are beating some high end ranged combos in DPS/DPP/PRICE .. but obviously not range.

Perhaps another gap would be the difference in some high price melee weapons to lower priced ones. For example, the comparison between Shagadi and GDB.. If I'm not mistaken Shagadi wins in DPP/DPS/PRICE.. but probably loses in TT value (durability).. But isn't the durability only as good as the amp?
 
aVaLON_52 said:
Some interesting points brought up.

Just want to say that sure, I could see Sachi's perspective if you were using ONLY melee. I just wouldn't go pure melee. My build is to shoot the mob at max range and then switch to bigger DPS/DPP melee at close combat. Ranged or melee unless the mob dies before it reaches you, which isn't always the case, eventually close combat will be warranted.. (Ranged mobs.. walk in as you shoot ranged? Can't say.. I'm a melee mob type hunter for evade not dodge atm..)

Ermik mentioned the price gap.. not to open that can of worms again.. but yes a lot of the melee amp combos are beating some high end ranged combos in DPS/DPP/PRICE .. but obviously not range.

Perhaps another gap would be the difference in some high price melee weapons to lower priced ones. For example, the comparison between Shagadi and GDB.. If I'm not mistaken Shagadi wins in DPP/DPS/PRICE.. but probably loses in TT value (durability).. But isn't the durability only as good as the amp?
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exactly.
and cheap melee options aren't the only ones bought cheap nowadays.

When baringer guns just came out, I bought one for 700 ped. Having a tagger that almost always hits and does max damage helps a lot especially combined with a nice big amp and tiered up.
Then gravis guns came out. Old school stats, but copies of popular +3k/+5k guns. I got the glr-33, which is an exact copy of the justifier mk-5, for 500 ped. I am also thinking of gettting the biggest gravis pistol blp and laser and the biggest gravis blp rifle. (which actually means I will have an omegaton m2930 me, freand epsilon, starkhov as 147 me.)
then melee amps came and slapped on my shagadi or songkra it's a whole new world for me.

Questions that need answering:
Will I ever need a sib rifle? I am not sure, because my baringer is sib and I only get 3 or 4 shots with my gravis gun, also my skill gets better and Mindark also threw in a free HA bonus.

Will I ever need a 15k short range pistol? certainly not because my trauma amp enhanced mêlee setup gets the job
Done.
 
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There may be more decay costs with melee, but in addition to the already mentioned skills/attributes/hp/inc. carry weight/etc, there are also no ammo costs either, except for whatever you need for your tagger. So the extra decay gets offset somewhat because of the significantly lower ammo costs.
 
How much would the VI (#6, 28 dmg) change in price if a VII, VIII, or Mod VI comes onto the market? There's going to be a premium to have The Best amp. Right now that's the VI.

MA designed and is allocating the Amps to the Planet Partners it sounds like. If Toulan / Cyrene / Rocktropia (Ignoring Next Island) Get the II / III / V, what's left for Arkadia?
 
Colbey Kal said:
How much would the VI (#6, 28 dmg) change in price if a VII, VIII, or Mod VI comes onto the market? There's going to be a premium to have The Best amp. Right now that's the VI.

MA designed and is allocating the Amps to the Planet Partners it sounds like. If Toulan / Cyrene / Rocktropia (Ignoring Next Island) Get the II / III / V, what's left for Arkadia?
Click to expand...

Toulan is beta and is unlikely to have been assigned the UL amps.
 
Colbey Kal said:
How much would the VI (#6, 28 dmg) change in price if a VII, VIII, or Mod VI comes onto the market? There's going to be a premium to have The Best amp. Right now that's the VI.

MA designed and is allocating the Amps to the Planet Partners it sounds like. If Toulan / Cyrene / Rocktropia (Ignoring Next Island) Get the II / III / V, what's left for Arkadia?
Click to expand...

If you look at some of the items put out by many other planets, you will notice that they have identical stats to already existing Caly items. This may well be the case with melee amps for other planets. It might have a different name, and look, but essentially does the same job. There are also possibilities for damage types, as well as UL decay absorption amps.
 
ermik said:
Toulan is beta and is unlikely to have been assigned the UL amps.
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sledgehammer said:
If you look at some of the items put out by many other planets, you will notice that they have identical stats to already existing Caly items. This may well be the case with melee amps for other planets. It might have a different name, and look, but essentially does the same job. There are also possibilities for damage types, as well as UL decay absorption amps.
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I honestly don't know if a better melee amp will come out or not. I wouldn't be surprised either way, but how much of the VI's current price is do it being the "Best" amp? If it holds it's position as the Top of The Line it seems fairly priced, if somewhat high due to the 'newness factor'. If a new one comes out I can't see it staying near +6K.

I'd guess the lvl 1 ends up around +75 with each additional level doubling in MU (Probably much less for the low-mid levels in actual pricing), with the 'best amp' being 3x the next best. This is roughly how the Energy / Blp amps seems to have settled, although the BLP starts one amp late, the Beast and A102-A105 are 'under priced' while the A101 is 'overpriced'.

With the max being 6(VI) : 1(I) at 75. 2=150, 3=300. 4(IV)=600 5=1200 6(VI)=3600
With the max being 7 (VII) : 1(I) at 75. 2=150 3=300. 4(IV)=600 5=1200 6(VI)= 2400 7(?)=7200
 
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Colbey Kal said:
How much would the VI (#6, 28 dmg) change in price if a VII, VIII, or Mod VI comes onto the market? There's going to be a premium to have The Best amp. Right now that's the VI.

MA designed and is allocating the Amps to the Planet Partners it sounds like. If Toulan / Cyrene / Rocktropia (Ignoring Next Island) Get the II / III / V, what's left for Arkadia?
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I don't think it would affect the value of the VI much. Unless it does same damage with less decay. A weapon can only hold an amp half of it's max damage. So it would open the playing field for all the other melee items with high damage. Nometheless Songkra+VI for example is a tough combination to beat.

I've already calculated the likely damage and decay of future trauma releases from VII to X and played with the numbers on some different weapons. I'm sure some other people have done the same once you see the pattern in the amps. But I don't think it will be done with a wide array of UL trauma amps. I forsee UL durability amps and hybrid UL amps of both trauma and durability.

But that's all mostly just speculation. It could also be years before we ever see another melee amp released..
 
aVaLON_52 said:
Songkra+VI for example is a tough combination to beat.
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Is it worth 4K+ PED more than the Songkra+IV or Songkra+V though? For some people, probably. Not for everybody though.
 
BO prices:

  1. Trauma VI, +4199
  2. Trauma IV, +2000
  3. Trauma I, +80
 
remontoire said:
BO prices:

  1. Trauma VI, +4199
  2. Trauma IV, +2000
  3. Trauma I, +80
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Lets keep that as a quote and check in 4 weeks, having right is always a matter of picking the right time and place to check how things are.

:)
 
Managed to buy A,B,C for a total of 80 PEDs (B/O).

Exchanged it into Melee Amp I with TT value of 1.00 ped.

So I'ld say +79 PEDs. But +80 PEDs is pretty close...so remontoire is on the mark still...for the time being.
 
Trauma I
Trauma II
Trauma III
Trauma IV
Trauma V
Trauma VI

..Time for these other ones to start dropping? :yup:
 
aVaLON_52 said:
Trauma I
Trauma II
Trauma III
Trauma IV
Trauma V
Trauma VI

..Time for these other ones to start dropping? :yup:
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Whats the rush?, yeah lets drop everything at the same time, making all items +1

:)
 
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