Question: What do you think is the minimum level one should have to use and UL weapon ?

I think that probably this question has been asked many times but it may be time for a fresh update as things change from time to time with updates by MA.

One's professional level my not be the criteria to use and it may in fact be the numbers out of ten in hit and damage. Of course, your professional level dictates your "Out of ten" figures. So for the sake of ease lets just use your "Out of ten" figures.

When using L weapons with SIB all that I have read says one should be somewhere around 9.8 to 10 out of ten to make the weapon eco and anything less cost money because of more misses and reduced damage and fire rate. Does this apply to UL weapons as well or is there something else to consider, like not having to replace the weapon and some L weapons are very eco as far as decay is concerned.

I know that I am kind of rambling here but I think you get the point. I just want to try to understand a little better from the many on this forum that a great deal knowledge to share.

TIA

I have a whole collection of old school UL guns.
I carry them all evrywhere i go.
I never have to buy a gun as Im usually shooting the ones I loot as well as these.

If your concern is "how much do they cost to use" then I expect they will cost too much to use. That being said...I see no difference in my cost to play than I did stressing out over an auction bid waiting to find out if I could hunt that day.

I still think I get better loots with the UL guns than I do with the "eco" brands.

It appears you are talking about non-SIB weapons, but you are referring to them as UL weapons. From a purely dpp perspective, unless you have the imk2 you should wait until you are almost maxed (i.e. level 100 Hit and Dmg) before using non-SIB weapons. At around commando the imk2 becomes superior in dpp to other weapons. I wouldn't recommend that anyone who hasn't at least reached commando to even pick up a non-SIB weapon these days, unless it's for something like PvP where it's not really about the dpp at all.

There are doubtless still lots of people who have rationalized the use of non-SIBs to hunt at really low skill levels, and i welcome them to continue to use them. Their predecessors are the reason those of us with mod opalos had 100%+ tt return for a while before the amp nerf.

Doer said:

It appears you are talking about non-SIB weapons, but you are referring to them as UL weapons. From a purely dpp perspective, unless you have the imk2 you should wait until you are almost maxed (i.e. level 100 Hit and Dmg) before using non-SIB weapons. At around commando the imk2 becomes superior in dpp to other weapons. I wouldn't recommend that anyone who hasn't at least reached commando to even pick up a non-SIB weapon these days, unless it's for something like PvP where it's not really about the dpp at all.

There are doubtless still lots of people who have rationalized the use of non-SIBs to hunt at really low skill levels, and i welcome them to continue to use them. Their predecessors are the reason those of us with mod opalos had 100%+ tt return for a while before the amp nerf.

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Well another use could be to kill occasional mobs now and then to free claims or something like that. Though with summon claim and vehicles i guess there are not so many occasions for it.

Commando if you have imk2

10/10 for everything else.

I assume your question is about hunting as a main proffession.

Theories are a good reading, there's a grain of truth in all of em.
And sometimes even "a grain" is an overestimate.

Casper said:

I have a whole collection of old school UL guns.
I carry them all evrywhere i go.
I never have to buy a gun as Im usually shooting the ones I loot as well as these.

If your concern is "how much do they cost to use" then I expect they will cost too much to use. That being said...I see no difference in my cost to play than I did stressing out over an auction bid waiting to find out if I could hunt that day.

I still think I get better loots with the UL guns than I do with the "eco" brands.

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I'm using all UL armour and UL weaponry but then I'm only using an Enblade A and an Axe 2x0 to finish off a mob if the A breaks during the kill. I've still got my Marber and a Justifier mk2 but I only use them as mounts for scopes.

I've had low returns of 55% and high returns of 250% from the same weapon on the same mob in the same area. I've tried similar level L stuff and got the similar results so why spend time looking for gear on the auction paying the MU when I can just visit the repair terminal and be ready to hunt whenever I feel like it.

My rant:
I hate the term "UL".

Instead, I use the terms "old school" (without SIB), and "repairable"/"repairable SIB".

In my Eyes, there is just one item that's somewhat UL; the ancient plasma handgun (don't worry; it's too slow to be used seriously) (and no, I don't have it, I Think there is just one ingame). And bugged oreamps.. And, well, the sweat tool :lol:

Sometimes people say, "You shouldn't use UL items." And, well, though let's say Opalo isn't the most eco weapon these Days, it's not *that* bad. What people mean is probably "You shouldn't use oldschool items".

As for me, I have a dilemma: I have one oldschool plasma rifle I've spent years tiering, to get to tier 5.6 (right now), to have dmg/sec comparable to the Classic breer P5. Then I have the howler p4, which is maxed, but is only at tier 2.5. The howler also has a slightly less limit on amps it can use (a bit less base damage).

The dull part is that even if I would start to use the howler and grind it up, I would spend years doing it, and trying to find mobs it's useful for (mobs that have enough HP for that kind of weapon, while at the same time not hurting too much, risking to kill me or making armor repair bill too high). And as the aim of MA is the policy the more HP the more damage delt, and more regen mobs, it will be harder to find good mobs to tiergrind slow weapons on.

Another area I used to have to use old-school weapons on was longblades, where my determination served me for a long time. I nowdays got an archon sword. Let's just hope i'll in the future will be able to get a (preferable repairable) amp for it - I don't have PEDs enough to be a part of the current bidding race on the eomon DNA parts.

The choice whether to use L or UL is going to be different for everyone. It depends on skill level, mobs you're hunting, and availability of weapons. Weigh the pros and cons of the factors below, calculating how much you'll spend to kill x number of mobs. The question of SIB vs non-SIB is really irrelevant, just use the dpp, dps, and other stats for your skill level (entropedia weapon compare tool does this if your weapons have the full SIB range data and you enter your prof levels). If non-SIB gives you acceptable eco then go with it. For those who don't know how to compare eco numbers, using a gun with 2.95 dpp will give you 9.3% more loot (295/270) than if you use one with 2.7 dpp.

• Gun cost. This is just damage per pec (for L, you include typical MU, for UL you include initial investment over the number of ped you will cycle)
• Fire rate, range, etc impacting other costs/enjoyment.
• Ped buffer (no sense to buy a 30k gun if it only leaves you 500 peds for ammo).
• Availability of equivalent L gear, and predicted future availability, taking into account how many L guns you go through.

Neil Stockton said:

The choice whether to use L or UL is going to be different for everyone. It depends on skill level, mobs you're hunting, and availability of weapons. Weigh the pros and cons of the factors below, calculating how much you'll spend to kill x number of mobs.

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Ah yes.

A piece of advice would be, don't use oldschool weapons uness you know what you are doing. Not tie it so hard to a professional level, but rather have enough knowledge to decide what weapons fits your style best.

One approach is having two guns: One gun that's as economical you can get (within reason), for grinding. And then Another weapon to use for fun, in emergencies or if you're hunting on Another planet and you can't find any suiing weapon in local auction.

What I do when it comes to old school weapons is use the tracker app to monitor my hit rate and average damage and then factor in the weapon's cost to hunt and finally give it a fun rating and decide if it's worth it or not.

I did it for the Karma Killer and found my hit rate to really not be that much lower than a similar sib i'm 10/10 on.

Recently did it for a soc mate's av1, hit rate was within acceptable levels and while it's cost to play with can be quite high even without enhancers because of the nice 75 attacks per min, the fun factor for that gun is just bloody lovely

MissAlannahJame said:

What I do when it comes to old school weapons is use the tracker app to monitor my hit rate and average damage and then factor in the weapon's cost to hunt and finally give it a fun rating and decide if it's worth it or not.

I did it for the Karma Killer and found my hit rate to really not be that much lower than a similar sib i'm 10/10 on.

Recently did it for a soc mate's av1, hit rate was within acceptable levels and while it's cost to play with can be quite high even without enhancers because of the nice 75 attacks per min, the fun factor for that gun is just bloody lovely

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I suppose you know this, but your hit ratio and average damage can be calculated in advance without tracking them. It's the average damage that will really get you when it comes to impacting your dpp and dps with skills too low.

It's good to find weapons that are fun to use, but there's really no subjectivity to hit ratio, average damage, and the corresponding dpp and dps, so really the concise description of your process is this:

Find out if the weapon is fun enough to justify the extra 5%+ cost to use it.

ETA: Here's a table that shows how big of an efficiency hit you take from using non-SIB weapons at various professional standing levels.

Doer said:

Find out if the weapon is fun enough to justify the extra 5%+ cost to use it.

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For me personally the av1 is. It's also a rarity, not something I use very often. This gun would be the equivalent of letting my hair down. Spend the year being efficient with weapons and mobs but 2-3 times a year just let loose and have fun if your ped card allows it.

I use a FreanD Delta 2.840 damage per pec with a beast so says the tracker.....I say that L ....is pure BS....its just another paradigm people have in their mind that think L guns are 10/10 they still miss...but they say mob evaded or something instead of missed...

Im level 31 blp pistoleer...and that works wonders..

Athal said:

I use a FreanD Delta 2.840 damage per pec with a beast so says the tracker.....I say that L ....is pure BS....its just another paradigm people have in their mind that think L guns are 10/10 they still miss...but they say mob evaded or something instead of missed...

Im level 31 blp pistoleer...and that works wonders..

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How many shots did you record with tracker?

Athal said:

I use a FreanD Delta 2.840 damage per pec with a beast so says the tracker.....I say that L ....is pure BS....its just another paradigm people have in their mind that think L guns are 10/10 they still miss...but they say mob evaded or something instead of missed...

Im level 31 blp pistoleer...and that works wonders..

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nope, no, nein.

Doer said:

It appears you are talking about non-SIB weapons, but you are referring to them as UL weapons. From a purely dpp perspective, unless you have the imk2 you should wait until you are almost maxed (i.e. level 100 Hit and Dmg) before using non-SIB weapons.

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There are a few other guns. I used the mod ff4400 at 2.94 eco with level 75 'ish' on hit/dmg and hit rate bonus. With the low defense costs, I did just as well with that gun as any SIB gun I've owned.

However, generally speaking, I think you need to be level 85/90 to start thinking of using a regular old school gun. With the new generation of sib guns being the same eco as the old school guns, I think Mindark needs to improve the hit (and possible dmg) bonus on the old school guns. Most of them make no sense to use for the vast majority of players. For example the adj v1, even at level 100, most of the new guns are more eco.

Mostly good stuff guys and thanks.

Along these same lines I wonder how many people use the "Old" guns that are like 30/sec shots and damage of 15 or 20 ? Why are those guns even here except to get for loot and to TT ?

CozMoDan said:

Along these same lines I wonder how many people use the "Old" guns that are like 30/sec shots and damage of 15 or 20 ? Why are those guns even here except to get for loot and to TT ?

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First, I can see it as crafting skilling, and secondly, maybe they were sort of useful for people who couldn't afford faster weapons. I should add, at that time there was no fast regen mobs (possibly with exception of calamusoids - from which, I Think it was written somewhere, the FAP technology came from). Also, you have the "overkill" factor; if you want to kill a 50 hp mob, it might be more economic to do it with a 20 dmg gun instead of a 40 dmg gun.

I should add, at that time there was also no amp restriction. You could put an a103 (tt+10) on a Jester D1 and have an ok weapon for exosaurs.¨

As for oldschool weapons there is Another trap: Weapons with (on the paper) terrible economy; mostly energy blades, MUX glove and one of the mann mph:s. Maybe they send you to a higher "looting layer" to compensate for the decay.

Today there is no reason to use that kind of wepaon though (slow oldschool weapon). Either go for fun and get the fastest oldschool weapon you afford, or for smaller mobs you can get a cheap good weapon from trade terminal.

aia said:

First, I can see it as crafting skilling, and secondly, maybe they were sort of useful for people who couldn't afford faster weapons. I should add, at that time there was no fast regen mobs (possibly with exception of calamusoids - from which, I Think it was written somewhere, the FAP technology came from). Also, you have the "overkill" factor; if you want to kill a 50 hp mob, it might be more economic to do it with a 20 dmg gun instead of a 40 dmg gun.

I should add, at that time there was also no amp restriction. You could put an a103 (tt+10) on a Jester D1 and have an ok weapon for exosaurs.¨

As for oldschool weapons there is Another trap: Weapons with (on the paper) terrible economy; mostly energy blades, MUX glove and one of the mann mph:s. Maybe they send you to a higher "looting layer" to compensate for the decay.

Today there is no reason to use that kind of wepaon though (slow oldschool weapon). Either go for fun and get the fastest oldschool weapon you afford, or for smaller mobs you can get a cheap good weapon from trade terminal.

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Glad to see someone that was there ring in. Didn't know about the no amp restriction that is interesting. One other question, when you did use the old slow weapons wasn't the hit and dmg just awful. When I first started I had a merc and I was a level 12 hit and 10 dmg but never notice what dmg I was doing. I knew if I shot long enough the mob would die

CozMoDan said:

When I first started I had a merc and I was a level 12 hit and 10 dmg but never notice what dmg I was doing. I knew if I shot long enough the mob would die

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The (normal) EWE-40 merc was a pretty good weapon for its price, I think it went as low as 12 ped but say aroudn 40 ped. You could compare it to Korss, but without the SIB, and not too bad decy. The main negative part of it (at the time) was the range.

aia said:

The (normal) EWE-40 merc was a pretty good weapon for its price, I think it went as low as 12 ped but say aroudn 40 ped. You could compare it to Korss, but without the SIB, and not too bad decy. The main negative part of it (at the time) was the range.

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In late 2007 when I started they were around +220 which I paid. Much later I sold it for around +75 .