Question for eco nerds re old-school weapons

For quite a while now I've been using Baringer SR47+Dante as my long-range weapon. Sometimes I use ML-35+Dante for tougher mobs but in general I try to avoid that because I'm not maxed.

However I'm now close to the point where my damage per pec on the ML-35 is very close to my damage per pec on the Baringer. On paper and in theory, that is. I'm maxed on damage and I'm something like 84.3 Hit which shows as 9.0/10.0 HA and should tick over to 9.1 soon.

I would like to hear opinions on whether I should therefore switch over to using the ML-35 all the time. I have heard suggestions in the past that there is some kind of loot penalty for not being maxed (on top of any loss from low dpp) but I've never seen any evidence of this.

Mainly interested in hearing from people who have collected data on this or at least have substantial long term experience of something comparable to my situation. Not much interested in unsubstantiated theories or hearsay.

The ML-35 does more dps which is why I use it on harder mobs, but I'm mainly looking at this from a pure dpp perspective. At it's extreme I am thinking about whether it would be a good idea to use ML-35 even if I had 0% defence costs. I'm also ignoring enhancer effects as I don't use them (I have been experimenting with accuracy enhancers since the consumption change, but the effect of these should be proportional no matter what HA I have).

Thoughts?

EDIT: Just checked in-game and my ML-35 is now showing 9.1 HA, must have ticked over in the last day or two.

Maybe Doer's Post here: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...nd-UL-weapon&p=3275697&viewfull=1#post3275697

Answers a bit. However as i see the post it only show % innefeciency. What it really means for loot you get ( or not get for that matter ) is something we just can guess.

All I can say is that I did way better with my i287 when it wasn't maxed.
I also made the change from ul HL15 to i287 when my dpp was the same or better on the i287.
Didn't notice any change in returns then longterm.

Oleg said:

I'm also ignoring enhancer effects as I don't use them (I have been experimenting with accuracy enhancers since the consumption change, but the effect of these should be proportional no matter what HA I have).

Thoughts?

EDIT: Just checked in-game and my ML-35 is now showing 9.1 HA, must have ticked over in the last day or two.

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Did you tried skill enhancers?

Can't help with this one because i use the imk2 for the majority of my output, but there are people like Minime, sachi, etc. that have bounced back and forth between imk2 or other non-sib and SIBs. The difficulty is that the payout has decreased over the years because of the rising average dpp, so it requires data from the same period of time for comparison, not "five years ago" versus "this year".

My tt return over the past couple years has varied from 80% to 101%, hunting with a dpp of around 2.97 (although obviously it's increased marginally during that time).

ETA: overall tt return is 94% during that time, for 237kPEDs output. Yes, i'm a tortoise.

ETA: Gah, sorry, i meant to comment on the rumor that unmaxed weapons have a penalty that goes beyond pure dpp numbers. I think that arose from the dev notes that emphasized a maxed hit ability as being very important. The wording left room for interpretation that there is some magic besides just raw dpp that affects returns, but knowing MA's gift for precise language, i'm not inclined to buy into that.

Doer said:

ETA: Gah, sorry, i meant to comment on the rumor that unmaxed weapons have a penalty that goes beyond pure dpp numbers. I think that arose from the dev notes that emphasized a maxed hit ability as being very important. The wording left room for interpretation that there is some magic besides just raw dpp that affects returns, but knowing MA's gift for precise language, i'm not inclined to buy into that.

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Hit ability was, without doubt, important - I haven't recorded returns recently. I cycled a similar amount to doer with a ml35me+evil (2.45 eco) and adjm5+106 (2.80) - both guns I had the same hit rate on - that yielded pretty much the same tt return (89% and 90% respectively). That was before the loot change, so it may explain why it was 4% lower than doer's return. I also used an imk2 from level 40 to 70, my returns were lower than when I used an UL HL15 and other sib guns. The dpp was the same or higher with the imk2 and the imk2 provided lower defense costs. I know a friend who recorded their returns with an imk2 and a mod lr32 over millions of ped. He had a better dpp with the imk2, but the mod lr32 had a 2% better return rate. Therefore, I would say Mindark is correct when they state being maxed on the hit rate is of primary importance and dpp a secondary factor when you are maxed. Sadly all my logs were lost when an internal component in my laptop burnt out.

edit: also, I did a test on scope/sight before my laptop burnt out:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?224467-The-effect-of-scopes-sights-on-hit-rate-March-2012-Ongoing&highlight=

On oleg's ml35 they should produce a hit rate in the region of 9.6. Personally I'd use the ml35+scope/sight over the baringer. Should be extremely close in return rate, but a higher performance level with the ml.

If you use Entropialife program, you can use it for pretty precise testing.

Pick a mob like armax. Something you can kill with those guns alone.
Setup ELs weapon tracker for your baringer+amp and use only that gun to to kill 20 mobs.
After recording the numbers, reset the weapon tracker for you ML-35. Kill 20 and compare numbers.

This avoids theory and shows what you are really getting in terms of dmg/pec, missed shots and all.

JohnCapital said:

If you use Entropialife program, you can use it for pretty precise testing.

Pick a mob like armax. Something you can kill with those guns alone.
Setup ELs weapon tracker for your baringer+amp and use only that gun to to kill 20 mobs.
After recording the numbers, reset the weapon tracker for you ML-35. Kill 20 and compare numbers.

This avoids theory and shows what you are really getting in terms of dmg/pec, missed shots and all.

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Yeah but it's not the dpp that's at question here, it's whether return is related to HA apart from dpp.

Doer said:

Yeah but it's not the dpp that's at question here, it's whether return is related to HA apart from dpp.

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ok, I read the loot thing as a side issue, and he was asking about eco of old school @9.1 vs new @ 10. Sorry if I misread.

Thanks guys.

JohnCapital said:

ok, I read the loot thing as a side issue, and he was asking about eco of old school @9.1 vs new @ 10. Sorry if I misread.

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Yeah calculating the dpp is not a problem, it's easy do that either through calculation or data collection. The question is whether there's something else going on, some sort of hidden mechanism in the background that makes returns worse (or indeed better) than might be expected when looking only at dpp.

Sachi's numbers are exactly the type of thing that's made me question whether switching to the ML-35 would be a good idea. But Doer's are more promising, and I've seen some other data that was sent to me in PM which also suggests that the dpp is the only governing factor. And although Das hasn't posted numbers, his experience also points that way.

So we have some disagreement here. Sachi, is it possible that your numbers are skewed by the difficulty/size of mobs you hunted? Did you, say, hunt bigger mobs than you perhaps ought to have done when using the IMK2, and play more conservatively with the HL15?

Teiwaz Storm said:

Did you tried skill enhancers?

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No, but iirc they have a very small effect on old-school weapons, don't they?

Well, all my data was collected before the recent loot change: so it may not be valid anymore. I actually skilled the same mob with the imk2 and the HL15: furor young on TI. The HL15 produced a few percentage points better return rate with a lower dpp; that's all I can remember, I lost the data with my laptop. I did complete over 10 iron missions with the imk2, so the data I had was quite extensive. Used the imk2 to finish argo/longu/atrox/feff, bunch of missions.

Mardoff recorded a lot of data with an imk2 (think he still owns it) and cycled millions of ped with the mod lr32. The last time I spoke to him the mod lr32 produced better returns with a lower dpp (think it was 97% with the mod lr32 and 95-96% with the imk2). He was recording that data after the loot change.

There is also Girts returns with an imk2 (similar period to when I owned one) and with a DOA etc. It was the same tt return rate when used at a similar professional level.

The problem is my data was conducted before the loot change, as was girts. I remain open minded on the effect of dpp. The above was just my experience. Whatever is the case, I am pretty sure Mindark said that being maxed on the item was the most important aspect of efficiency, and everything I ever recorded tended to back that up.

Sorry man, I can't give you exact numbers as I messed up that openoffice sheet :s

Oleg said:

But Doer's are more promising, and I've seen some other data that was sent to me in PM which also suggests that the dpp is the only governing factor.

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There are plenty of prior tests that indicated the cost to kill was the main governing factor. We did have tests conducted using an opalo+eamp15 that showed loot went up when the cost to kill did. Maybe Mindark altered something recently to change that. Some people have stated they got 90% tt return rate with a swine deluxe for example. Likewise, I used a UL LC-300 when it was bugged and cost X times more ammo to shoot. I did kill a few mobs in pvp4 with that gun, the kills cost me 30-40ped. Each of those mobs looted very nicely. I did some tests with those extremely uneco noob powerfists - 1.9 eco maxed - and the loot correlated with the hit rate and not the dpp. I got back in the region of 80% tt return (was 1.9 hit rate on it), but in relation to dpp, it was nearly half the eco of say an imk2; shouldn't I have got 50% tt return? Therefore, I think it is questionable that dpp is the only governing factor; we have enough tests in the past to show that it wasn't.

ps. I assume by dpp being the governing factor, you mean the hp inflicted, no matter what the cost to kill, dpp/hp inflicted governs the loot.

sachi.mk2 said:

ps. I assume by dpp being the governing factor, you mean the hp inflicted, no matter what the cost to kill, dpp/hp inflicted governs the loot.

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Yes, I mean dpp affecting the cost to kill and therefore the overall % return, same thing from the opposite angle.

Doer said:

Can't help with this one because i use the imk2 for the majority of my output, but there are people like Minime, sachi, etc. that have bounced back and forth between imk2 or other non-sib and SIBs. The difficulty is that the payout has decreased over the years because of the rising average dpp, so it requires data from the same period of time for comparison, not "five years ago" versus "this year".

My tt return over the past couple years has varied from 80% to 101%, hunting with a dpp of around 2.97 (although obviously it's increased marginally during that time).

ETA: overall tt return is 94% during that time, for 237kPEDs output. Yes, i'm a tortoise.

ETA: Gah, sorry, i meant to comment on the rumor that unmaxed weapons have a penalty that goes beyond pure dpp numbers. I think that arose from the dev notes that emphasized a maxed hit ability as being very important. The wording left room for interpretation that there is some magic besides just raw dpp that affects returns, but knowing MA's gift for precise language, i'm not inclined to buy into that.

Click to expand...

I wrote a long reply with a lot of numbers but decided that it will just create a discussion where I have to defend my way of collecting data so I deleted it and wrote this instead

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?228884-Developer-Notes-3

Efficiency in hunting has several components, the most vital of which is Hit Ability (sometimes abbreviated as HA). Hit Ability is a measure of how accurate you avatar is with a weapon. You can view your avatar’s Hit Ability on a weapon by right-clicking on the weapon and viewing the item’s information panel.

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A second and very important part of efficient hunting is to consider the relative cost of using a particular weapon, often referred to as weapon economy, usually measured as damage per PEC. This measures how efficiently, in terms of weapon decay and ammo consumption, a weapon produces each point of damage. An avatar will enjoy much better overall hunting results over time when using weapons with higher damage per pec.

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I think it's useful to highlight exactly what Mindark stated in their development notes. The question I have is what does Mindark mean when they say "better overall hunting results". Playing devil's advocate, does this mean a higher tt return rate? could it mean with more mobs killed at the same ped spent, you get more skills, can max guns quicker, can therefore hunt bigger mob with more markup, can finish missions cheaper, and it has nothing to do with tt return rate. My personal opinion is that it means you will get a higher tt return with a higher dpp, but, maybe there is room for doubt, as I don't think it precisely states that.

I don't have much useful data of my own to contribute here, because of not using the ML-35 much previously. The two mobs for which I've used the ML-35 most extensively are Falxangius and Eomon. In both cases I'm using ML-35+Dante until the mob gets close enough to use maxed (L) handguns (primarily Zero-X, SIF-S, SIF-A), also with Dante. No enhancers on the handguns, varying amounts of accuracy enhancers (up to 3 slots) on the ML-35.

For Falx I have:

Total cost: 33183.08
Loot: 33927.59
Return: 102.24%
2.83% of total costs are defence (armour and FAP)

For Eomon:

Total cost: 23919.18
Loot: 19642.86
Return: 82.12%
7.05% defence costs

All numbers are TT values with no markup included. Falx results are from September 2013 until now, Eomon mainly from this year's migration but with some from last year.

sachi.mk2 said:

Well, all my data was collected before the recent loot change: so it may not be valid anymore. I actually skilled the same mob with the imk2 and the HL15: furor young on TI. The HL15 produced a few percentage points better return rate with a lower dpp; that's all I can remember, I lost the data with my laptop. I did complete over 10 iron missions with the imk2, so the data I had was quite extensive. Used the imk2 to finish argo/longu/atrox/feff, bunch of missions.

Mardoff recorded a lot of data with an imk2 (think he still owns it) and cycled millions of ped with the mod lr32. The last time I spoke to him the mod lr32 produced better returns with a lower dpp (think it was 97% with the mod lr32 and 95-96% with the imk2). He was recording that data after the loot change.

There is also Girts returns with an imk2 (similar period to when I owned one) and with a DOA etc. It was the same tt return rate when used at a similar professional level.

The problem is my data was conducted before the loot change, as was girts. I remain open minded on the effect of dpp. The above was just my experience. Whatever is the case, I am pretty sure Mindark said that being maxed on the item was the most important aspect of efficiency, and everything I ever recorded tended to back that up.

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Since I started collecting data I burned through around 400k ped's with H21 (UL)/ Mod LR32 (UL) + A204 before I got my self a imk2 and yes I managed to get my tt returns to 97%. When I went over to imk2 my pro lvls were around 65 so my returns dropped to 94% pretty much soon after. Since i got closer to lvl 80 my returns have slightly improved and I'm back at 95.5%. I have been away a lot this year so there's still work to be done I'm just lvl 83 atm so I can tell you more at the end of the year

mArdOff said:

Since I started collecting data I burned through around 400k ped's with H21 (UL)/ Mod LR32 (UL) + A204 before I got my self a imk2 and yes I managed to get my tt returns to 97%. When I went over to imk2 my pro lvls were around 65 so my returns dropped to 94% pretty much soon after. Since i got closer to lvl 80 my returns have slightly improved and I'm back at 95.5%. I have been away a lot this year so there's still work to be done I'm just lvl 83 atm so I can tell you more at the end of the year

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So your results are right in line with mine. I'm interested to see your end-of-year results.

Doer said:

So your results are right in line with mine. I'm interested to see your end-of-year results.

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Yes it will, and it will be interesting to see if he can improve upon 97%.

His return rate says not: 94% at level 65; 95.5% at level 83; tends to indicate 97% at level 100.

sachi.mk2 said:

Yes it will, and it will be interesting to see if he can improve upon 97%.

His return rate says not: 94% at level 65; 95.5% at level 83; tends to indicate 97% at level 100.

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We just talked with him today, his dmg is 75 so much to improve there =)

Piotr said:

We just talked with him today, his dmg is 75 so much to improve there =)

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Perhaps, but to me, it looks like his return rate is directly related to his hit rate. Coupled with the fact he is getting a lower return rate with a higher dpp. What is without doubt, is that Mardoff's data does not support a loot theory where 'dpp is the only governing factor'.

He already has 9.1 HA so eco will improve a lot by dmg increase not by hit lvl, that being said during time i tested imk2 found it interesting that with 2.99 eco i had 90% return while L users with 2.95 or less had 95% or so.

I guess since the servers are down I'll add my 2 pec .

I believe DPP is greater than any other variable in the system.
I think it was many years ago ( I don't know if they still do it) but the system had to be audited or checked by an outside source to see if it was consider gambling once a year; I'm pretty sure they still have to do it.

I'm almost positive the system is set up to break even ( minus decay of course) if you hit the certain requirements.
Right weapon, Right mob, Right skill level, Right DPP etc.
The system is set up to make you even over a very long period of time.

I've recently come back to the game, and recently about 3 weeks ago got myself an IMK2, in that time I've cycled about 125k ammo, about 150k~ total.
Precisely 219,742 ammo and 277,741 with decay in peds using both I2870 and Imk2 since coming back about 2 months ago.

Since using both IMK2 and I2870 SGA my DPP was: I2870 @ 3.017 Eco and Imk2 @ 3.150 Eco. (Had higher hit on pistoleer than rifle)

I determined I could technically do 5k+ ped more worth of damage with an imk2 over a month as I could with the same cost through an I2870.
Currently my spreadsheet show way better than that. (better actually but its being manipulated by bigger loots recently.) But if I take out large loots, I do show almost exactly 5k if not a bit more in returns using IMK2 over I2870 SGA in the same ped cycled.

I'll wait until I cycle about 2 million ped before I post my spreadsheet results as 280k isn't consistent enough of a sample when deciding these things.


So in short TL'DR:
Always go with the gun with the most DPP, you'll always do better.

PS: I'll post exact numbers of 3.017 VS 3.150 when I get home, I wrote this in a bit of a rush.





(Superstition, hearsay, loot theory section)

Again I might not know what I'm talking about so don't follow my word, I wrote the book on loot theories xD I have so many It'd take hours to write them all down, so I could be a little bit... Crazy .

As for the original question if you have a loot cap or you need to be 10/10HA or you'll be penalized I think is incorrect. (I'm not maxed HA currently after selling out skills, but still doing decently)
What might happen in my opinion is when you hunt super eco (imk2) your loot/global/hof/ath will be smaller than someone hunting super uneco. The average giant loots looted in the past year by uneco hunting gives an illusion of a penalty. I think that the big loots is the system rebalancing your personal cost, people with a bigger personal cost (uneco) will get larger loots as it is what it takes to rebalance them.

Oleg said:

No, but iirc they have a very small effect on old-school weapons, don't they?

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I used them on my ML-35 but it was long time ago and don't remember details.

One tier enhanced gives you half a lvl so putting few should bump you to 9.2 or so.
Keep in mind that some time ago MA changed formula for HA dependence on hit lvl, now giving more at lower levels and lessening impact on higher levels, so this will surely impact influence of those enhancers.

Ogulak'Da'Dragon said:

(Superstition, hearsay, loot theory section)

Again I might not know what I'm talking about so don't follow my word, I wrote the book on loot theories xD I have so many It'd take hours to write them all down, so I could be a little bit... Crazy .

As for the original question if you have a loot cap or you need to be 10/10HA or you'll be penalized I think is incorrect. (I'm not maxed HA currently after selling out skills, but still doing decently)
What might happen in my opinion is when you hunt super eco (imk2) your loot/global/hof/ath will be smaller than someone hunting super uneco. The average giant loots looted in the past year by uneco hunting gives an illusion of a penalty. I think that the big loots is the system rebalancing your personal cost, people with a bigger personal cost (uneco) will get larger loots as it is what it takes to rebalance them.

Click to expand...

I've maybe only done about 0.1% hunting/ testing of what the rest of you've done, but at least it is consistent with what Da is saying here. My little experiment was (and still is a tiny bit) with Powerfists versus Halix, that is a small Arkadian mob. With the super uneco Mux-2 I've scored more globals than I did with the oke'ish eco EnKnucles-A, however in the end super uneco came out with a super bad return. It feels like the difference between ski'ing down a mountain at 20% angle and going whoop! whoa! over ramps and ski'ing down a mountain at gentle slope and rise of max 5%. Both go down, but the first is much more likely to hit a tree dead-head-on.
I've also noticed that the kind of stackables/ items I got depends a bit on the eco of the weapon used. A weapon with better eco made me get loot with better markup. So that's a way of influencing your Globals and HoFs from just oils to cool/ rare/ nice item.

As for the original question: that's way above my level to answer.

Thanks Ardorj, the tests that you've done over on the Arkadia Forum certainly back up my own observations that using bad damage per pec really is a bad idea in terms of long-term results. I'm not sure that helps with my question though, as it doesn't tell us whether X dpp on a maxed weapon is really equal to X dpp on an unmaxed weapon.

On the other hand, perhaps it's silly to think that that situation might somehow be different.

For the moment I think I'm going to continue using ML-35 only on the hardest or high regen mobs where the SR47 doesn't cut it, but with more willingness to do those mobs without worrying about the bad eco, and perhaps I'll also start using it for some of the harder mobs that I would have previously done with SR47, in an effort to cut down on armour and fap decay. Doing that for a while should at least give me a better feel for the difference it makes.

Still would welcome more opinions.

there are those camo marine stalkers L like lvl 80 or whatever SIB of it is use that rather probably has better eco

MeanMachine said:

there are those camo marine stalkers L like lvl 80 or whatever SIB of it is use that rather probably has better eco

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Markup is always a 100% for sure loss so f... that

is there a way to find out which gun is best for hunting <insert mob name here> Or is the only way to figure that out to just buy 4-5 different guns with different damage and ammo burn and hunt the same mob and after a month and 1000s of ped worth of ammo/decay you have your answer?