my 2 pec about loot

Altamont

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To introduce myself just abit, I played several mmorpgs - some are wellknown, some are unknown. In that time I heard much about loot theories before I came across EU. Additionally 2 years ago I started my own rpg - whole story doesn't matter but sure I also had to think about loot from developers view. You'll read a mixture of being a player and also developer.

Theory 1: Loot is linked to daytime, avatar, team or not team, location etc.
2 pec: From developers view it would be much to dangerous to link loot in any way to such parameters, because this system would be ready for being manipulated. Linked to the daytime, every player would try to cheat the system. Linked to avatar it would be really hard to track and balance any avatar in relation to another and more important: What happens if you have 10, 100, 1000, 1k player? Such a system must crash normally.

Theory 2: There is a personal lootpool
2 pec: Half a year back I would subscribe to this theory, because in the past after a bigger or big global I had just bad runs for month. I did 900+ped global 2 weeks(something around this) after I played EU 1st time being a newbie and after this I never got a return 0.0001% plus again. I just lost till I went down to null ped.

After a half year break I came back half a year ago maybe. Thinking of today I can't subscribe this theory anymore. I did 560+ global and after that I got 100, 200,esi,110 in just some days. Additionally I git 2 esi within 1 hour, one on arka, one on caly.

Theory 3: (It was one of my 1st theorys) Loot is totally random
Here again I would be much much frightend from developers view. If you ever heard the term "ghost in the machine" you would not sleep well after you started a totally random thing because totally trandom offers the chance of 1000 active players ingame getting an ath in the same time.

Theory 4: (My newest theory) Loot comes from different pools
A low inetconnection is interesting playing onlinegames, because transfered data sometimes feel like slowmotion. More and more I found out, that special loot comes with a really small lag under a second. That means for example the Adaptive Fire Rate Component at Traeskerons. It's not rates "very often" and when I go out atm to do them, I 1st get ammo and "very often" stuff. With a really small lag, EU is adding that special item then. The order of items I would not put my hands into fire, becaus it's a new theory, but I remember being at Artax I got a 350+ global and definately the castorian blades and other weapon was at the end of loot list.

Means: When a mob is down, EU calculates "very often", "often", "rare" and so on stuff, I guess from different servers, because the calculation over one server without datarecalls from different servers would not answer the timelag.

Theory 5: There is lootwaves
There is definately no waveform that I evers noticed, being at hadraada did around 25k mobs maybe, I never got a plant in 1 1/2 years and then some month ago I got 2 trees within 10 minutes. I didn't global 10 ped for more than 2 month, then I global 12 times in 1 hour.

Theory 6: There is looty and unlooty mobs ingame
Definately I would subcribe this. The most terrible arka mob is Oro and I never met anybody ingame that loves oro and tallked about good loot. My emergency mob on arkadia so is hadraada. Just having 2 ped, I would never hunt another mob just having 2ped left if I wanna have good loot or wanna global within 10-20 shots. Ostelok could be nice to me, but hadraada is definately safer in return. In the first I called Argonauts on caly looty, but in the end I rated them down to unlooty for ripping me around 300ped in a row.

Theory 7: Hunting, Mining, Crafting is like using a slotmachine
I think it's true. Shooting down a mob is inserting the coins, mob down is spinning the wheels.

Theory 8: The return of EU remembers me to classic casino
Since I started playing EU 3 years ago when I was totally newbie, I learmned alot about the game. All I've to say is: If someone is crying about just losing, it's like crying in a casino about losing. Why is other players on the road to be a winner? Because they know how to play and follow detailed and special rules made out of experience. Normally a good player in casino is someone who notice things n details and could use them for his game. Same here.

I don't want to go too much into details, but one of my golden casino rules (I just go in once in 3-5 years maybe for fun and never lost over years)...

Rule: Never mix beginning balance with what u win.
Example: You hunt for 100ped

1) Use one pot to feed the machine whole 100 ped
2) Use another pot to collect what u win
3) Don't reinvest what u win in a turn

And don't be so clever to think you could cover a loss of 50ped with other 50ped. It's a game and you gamble. When you go out in a club to have a flirt, paying 10$ entry, did u ever came out and asked the security to get your money back because u hadn't a flirt?

;)
 
Theory 4: (My newest theory) Loot comes from different pools
A low inetconnection is interesting playing onlinegames, because transfered data sometimes feel like slowmotion. More and more I found out, that special loot comes with a really small lag under a second. That means for example the Adaptive Fire Rate Component at Traeskerons. It's not rates "very often" and when I go out atm to do them, I 1st get ammo and "very often" stuff. With a really small lag, EU is adding that special item then. The order of items I would not put my hands into fire, becaus it's a new theory, but I remember being at Artax I got a 350+ global and definately the castorian blades and other weapon was at the end of loot list.

Means: When a mob is down, EU calculates "very often", "often", "rare" and so on stuff, I guess from different servers, because the calculation over one server without datarecalls from different servers would not answer the timelag.

This only affects the notifications on your screen and happens because your client is searching around for thumbnail images for things you haven't yet seen since the cache was last cleared.

In team chat, items normally come first; other stuff often comes in different order for different team members, which means the delay between lines is microseconds at most.
 
I hate it when people compare PE to a casino.

In a casino there is no economy, no markup.

Therefore it is impossible to compare the both.

You could compare PE to gambling, but then again you could compare any event that has ever happened in the history of the universe (the real universe) to gambling events. As everything in life has a possible outcome, therefore you can compare anything to gambling.

Just cause it is possible to lose money in PE does not make it gambling.

It is a real cash economy. People seem to forget the economy part.

Rgds

Ace

PS regarding to loot theories, when you record, it looks random, but then there seems to be other stuff going on that makes it appear none random.
 
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1: I believe that every mob (a kind, not individuals) has its own pool - pool for spiders, pool for prots, etc, so, say, ATH on prots doesn't affect loot on spiders; hence loot is linked to mobs, not avatars or time of say, and distributed through certain patterns perceived as "waves" (see 5).

2: never believed in personal lootpool even before MA explicitly stated there's no such thing; and why would say that if that wasn't true, considering that belief in personal pool stimulates to depo and to spend more, expecting to get everything back eventually? Also I don't believe in outright lie from MA, especially when no one dragged that information out of them.

3: when it comes to software, there's no such thing as random, only algorithms and patterns you don't recognize; it's possible to create a pseudo-random system, but when you as a coder have an opportunity to create whatever you want, a pseudo-random isn't the most interesting choice.

As I said in that thread, in my early days I rather believed in pseudo-random (aka luck) system, but as time went by, both my opinion and the system itself (as I believe) have changed. In modern system nothing is left to chance. The system neatly and thoroughly milks you, giving you skills bonuses when you almost of ammo, better multipliers when you slow down your activity due to bad returns, even better multipliers when you come back after a long break, etc etc.

4: Haruto already explained it :) I know what you mean by "lag" but experience it only the first time - if I loot same item again during same run, there's no lag.

5: I believe in lootwaves as I believe that sun rises in the east. Maybe Earth is flat and the sun is actually a chariot of Helios - I'm not an astrophysicist and haven't been in space to disprove that first-hand. But the damn thing really follows the same pattern, every day! And so do lootwaves. I literally swim in them :)

I spent 4 years hunting same mob with same gear for 5+ hours a day (argos, Twin Peaks, pre-VU10), while a good dozen or two of people within radar were doing the same all the time, so it was a great experience in learning wave patterns. Argos used to drop 8-10k loots at least every 3-5 days, and most of the time I felt it coming down to the hour, many times observed those swirlies with my own eyes, even if never got one myself; but then again, there were lots of people, so the chance was minimal.

The thing is, the waves are global, not personal, so a wave can hold only so many riders. Find a mob that nobody else hunt (hint: Next Island) and spend enough time on it and you'll enjoy the waves in full. You will mostly loot back your own spendings, but it definitely will happen in waves.

6: strongly disagree. There are mobs that aren't hunted too much, so the pool doesn't get filled too fast, just stay long enough and you'll catch your wave. You'll global on a chirpy if you stick to it for long enough. Btw, I completed whole Oro chain and really enjoyed the loot, but I saw many people hunting Oros those days so the pool was well fed.

7: yes, in a sense, but it's a slot-machine that is played by lots of people at once, each of them pulls the handle in turn, so no matter how many coins you have fed to it, there's always a high possibility that someone else with get the jackpot.

8: agree, however it's not a theory and doesn't really have anything with loot mechanics.

P.S.: When I say "long enough" I mean a sample equal to hundreds of kills, even thousands for small creatures, not shooting 100 mobs and calling it a test.

P.P.S: There's no such thing as "I didn't global in 2 months", you just cycle not enough. Go and cycle X ped in one go on a mob with X hp where X is at least > 500, you will have at least one global, most likely many. You might end up broke in the end, but globals you'll have, no doubt.
 
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edit: Nice reading but... u still can't beat Svarog. Hope someday u will!

Nice reading. Nothing's true thou. Then again, the same applies to most loot theories. ;) --- 1st response, but above is a better one


+rep for the effort to understand
 
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It is just simple as it is!

The system works this way : THE BANK WIN EVER !
 
if I may add my 3 pec

How loot was designed to work.
How loot was coded.
How loot works.

are 3 different things.

For example it may be linked to daytime, but not designed or coded that way.
It may be designed as random, but not coded in that way.
There may be lootwaves without the need to design and code them.
 
What svarog said, mostly.. some minor changes or rather additions to the wave parts :)
 
Well, it's just what I noticed myself, learned and what I think from developers view. Maybe I'm totally wrong with all, so it's just 2pec and not my 2 aths ;)
 
I think avg. loot is like a slot machine on 90% returns, but the big ubers come in waves due to deposits and withdraws.

don't forget every ped in game is back by actual $$$.:wise:

new items spur increase in depositing, thats why when events come around we see more uber hofs. that 10% is used more or less as a barrier for MA to calibrate their financials.

items are generated by target ped cycled on a certain mob or completely random, but im guessing it's completely random.
 
Our game is pure casino..To hunt is casino, to craft is casino, to do mining is casino but then MA made few thing so it cant be called for casino and it is a % on the loot, markup and to have private LA:s private shops and so on but basically it's just a casino and the game cant exist without hunting,crafting and mining but the game can exist without private LA:s a % off the loot private shops, markups and so on.

So the game is just a masked casino.

Think about it next time when you stading infront of 100 Eomons and thinking who is giving 2 ped or 100k peds because you are not thinking i killing stalkers so i Always getting more loot then if i would be killing Youngs or old.
 
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1: I believe that every mob (a kind, not individuals) has its own pool - pool for spiders, pool for prots, etc, so, say, ATH on prots doesn't affect loot on spiders; hence loot is linked to mobs, not avatars or time of say, and distributed through certain patterns perceived as "waves" (see 5).
.

I would say it's the server not the mob, it just seems it's the mob because most servers or area doesn't have many mob types but if the server has lots of PED being pumped in then it's prime.

For example if you are hunting a particular mob on some LA but then head somewhere else and the loot is much better there.

And I think the server's do work like a slot machine ie naturally they are designed to only pay out eg 95% and they can't pay out more than that but when people hit big loot's that is determined by other factors but the server will still limit the pay out to how much is below 95% threshold at that moment.

Also - everyone forgotten about Biorytma???
 
The only pool I believe in is the one that will cool me down from this 30+ degree weather. That's Centigrade :wtg:
 
I Believe in the pokie machine theory.
Here in New Zealand our local pubs can have more than 3 jackpots on them.
And the way they work is every $ you spend adds .01 to the pubs linked jackpots(sometimes less sometimes more.all different.)And we can also see a machines therorictical % return (however u spell it.

Once A jackpot goes off it resets back to a starting value, and triggers again at another random value.

So i believe each mob is like a different machine.

I can kill/play it for infinity and expect a % return.

And hope im playing/killing the right mob/machine at the right right time that my .01 was enought to trigger the jackpot.

thats why people better higher/or faster have more chance to trigger jackpots.

Player A Bet $1=.01 to jackpot
Player B Bet $5=.05 to jackpot

If the jackpots random value is set to go off at $800

And is at $799.98

Player A moves it to $799.99 No Jackpot
Player B Would of moves it to $800.03 JACKPOT SWIRLIES WOOHOO :)

Thats my 2 pecs
 
This thread made me laugh pretty hard.

Lol...
 
I would say it's the server not the mob, it just seems it's the mob because most servers or area doesn't have many mob types but if the server has lots of PED being pumped in then it's prime.
What if... they used a feature that already existed in the system, when they made the first user-owned LA? :scratch2:
 
I would say it's the server not the mob, it just seems it's the mob because most servers or area doesn't have many mob types but if the server has lots of PED being pumped in then it's prime.

For example if you are hunting a particular mob on some LA but then head somewhere else and the loot is much better there.

And I think the server's do work like a slot machine ie naturally they are designed to only pay out eg 95% and they can't pay out more than that but when people hit big loot's that is determined by other factors but the server will still limit the pay out to how much is below 95% threshold at that moment.

Also - everyone forgotten about Biorytma???

It's both server or rather spawn area and mob. A certain area that get's hunted more generates more loot, but that loot at the same time get distributed among all spawns with that mob. And if an uber is close (which is possible to calculate with enough data) you can be in the hotzone, but that hotzone might not always happen in the most hunted area due to the other "waves" so it can be on the same mob but totally non hunted area.

I Believe in the pokie machine theory.
Here in New Zealand our local pubs can have more than 3 jackpots on them.
And the way they work is every $ you spend adds .01 to the pubs linked jackpots(sometimes less sometimes more.all different.)And we can also see a machines therorictical % return (however u spell it.

Once A jackpot goes off it resets back to a starting value, and triggers again at another random value.

So i believe each mob is like a different machine.

I can kill/play it for infinity and expect a % return.

And hope im playing/killing the right mob/machine at the right right time that my .01 was enought to trigger the jackpot.

thats why people better higher/or faster have more chance to trigger jackpots.

Player A Bet $1=.01 to jackpot
Player B Bet $5=.05 to jackpot

If the jackpots random value is set to go off at $800

And is at $799.98

Player A moves it to $799.99 No Jackpot
Player B Would of moves it to $800.03 JACKPOT SWIRLIES WOOHOO :)

Thats my 2 pecs

Sort of correct if you ask me but with more complexity, so yes you want to kill as fast as possible but also not too fast unless the timing is right. And also you don't want a too packed spawn due to that then it's a smaller chance to hit the good mobs among so many "bad" mobs.
 
The only pool I believe in is the one that will cool me down from this 30+ degree weather. That's Centigrade :wtg:

Just visite Switzerland we have since 2 months rain and 10-20 C are average this summer :( wish we had 30C like it should be in July.
 
Just visite Switzerland we have since 2 months rain and 10-20 C are average this summer :( wish we had 30C like it should be in July.
lol yeah I'll take the hot weather any day! :yay: Besides I have AC to cool me down. :) Just prefer pools to AC! :yup:
 
REDESIGNED Theory 4: (My newest theory) Loot comes from different pools

Ok, today I was at Nusul. Definately Blank DNA Cardridge and Basic Hair Color Set was displayed in Loot (Lineview).

Someone said before, that the order is not important ans also I should not count on lag looking additional loot, here is a polished version of 4th Theory.

There is 2 ways of Payout:

1) Prepared kinda Lootbags with prepared constant items and variable amount.
2) Random Loot from maybe different Lootservers based on common, rare and so on.

Well, nothing to print in stone, just a theory.
 
1) Prepared kinda Lootbags with prepared constant items and variable amount.
2) Random Loot from maybe different Lootservers based on common, rare and so on.

Or rather everything comes from same source but some items have to pass additional checks, possibly several levels of checks, before making it into the "loot bag", as follows from this Kim's comment.
 
how can someone say there is no personal lootpool and then say that the loot return tt % is 90% ("okey ur doing badly now with only 70% tt return but it will even it soon") if thats not personal loot pool then what is it? if there is no personal loot pool there cant be 90% tt return either.. unless every mob would drop 90% loot from the amount spend to it
 
how can someone say there is no personal lootpool and then say that the loot return tt % is 90% ("okey ur doing badly now with only 70% tt return but it will even it soon") if thats not personal loot pool then what is it? if there is no personal loot pool there cant be 90% tt return either.. unless every mob would drop 90% loot from the amount spend to it
That someone needs to be familiar with the basics of probability theory, first of all the concept of expected value; depending on when, where and in what language someone learned their math, they may know it under the names of 'mathematical expectation' or similar.
 
("okey ur doing badly now with only 70% tt return but it will even it soon")

It will even out if those 70% is just a random fluctuation and not a consequence of stupid actions (gambling, ignoring dpp factor etc). You can't infinitely craft on condition, hunt with 2.5 dpp etc etc and expect it come to 90% in the end. You may get lucky and end up with 1000% ATH, but it has nothing to do with statistics and happens to a small fraction of people who go that way.

if thats not personal loot pool then what is it?

It's called probability distribution and it affects whole playerbase. Just like your individual runs can vary as 50-150% (the numbers are arbitrary), possibly getting evened out to 90% in the long run if you don't do stupid things, so each individual player is at 50-150% (arbitrary, again) return of his expenses. Contradicting the saying "a person is smart, people are stupid", there are "smart" and "stupid" players, while as a crowd we're rather good at average 90% :)
 
Just like your individual runs can vary as 50-150% (the numbers are arbitrary), possibly getting evened out to 90% in the long run if you don't do stupid things

Here's an example of this (6000-something clicks on maxed generic leather texture):

Individual 100-click runs vary from 60% to 250% or smth. like that.
 
I think avg. loot is like a slot machine on 90% returns, but the big ubers come in waves due to deposits and withdraws.

don't forget every ped in game is back by actual $$$.:wise:

new items spur increase in depositing, thats why when events come around we see more uber hofs. that 10% is used more or less as a barrier for MA to calibrate their financials.

items are generated by target ped cycled on a certain mob or completely random, but im guessing it's completely random.

The 90% concept was pulled out of someone's ass. The game is a money cycler. Decay is lost and shared with planet partners under their split system. That is how planets make their cash. Some people believe differently and I guess that is fine but in the end defensive decay has always been the edge I always have to overcome in hunting. The numbers I published about aakas runs gives you insight if you can critically analyze them.

The item waves and such happens though I don't agree with it. Cyrene and rocktropia are exploited or have been for this reason because of the small overall cycling. It is easy to detect and monitor those planets.
 
Can you mindark please stop giving big uber hofs to people that come back from long brake :scratch2::scratch2::scratch2: .. Realy what is the point ???? There is tons of people spend alot times here geting same shit again and again and someone coming from a year brake and geting 238578 hofs for a day . Suport case is done too i want to see what will be the answer . Happy hofing !

Also i see what they try to do but if someone leave he will leave again so stop this masive hello adict hofs and give some to regular players .
 
Can you mindark please stop giving big uber hofs to people that come back from long brake :scratch2::scratch2::scratch2: .. Realy what is the point ???? There is tons of people spend alot times here geting same shit again and again and someone coming from a year brake and geting 238578 hofs for a day . Suport case is done too i want to see what will be the answer . Happy hofing

Shutup and decay!
 
Here is my speculation.

- Each mob/area has a loot pool.
- When the mob is spawned, the mob is given a certain amount of loot from the loot pool at random.
- The loot might be randomly placed, but its randomness is based off of a 90% return.

So, for example, you might get crappy runs because the loot is calculated to drop 40% of the return on this mob and you just so happened to kill a lot of those '40%' mobs.

The reason globals/aths happen is because the % of the loot pool was randomed to be 500% or 4000% return when the mob is killed.

I think this is why your loot can be random off of 100 ped or 200 ped runs. But when you hunt for 5000 ped or 10000 ped it averages slowly to 90%.

Sorry for my crappy english but you think this could be true? :confused::confused:
 
Here is my speculation.

- Each mob/area has a loot pool.
- When the mob is spawned, the mob is given a certain amount of loot from the loot pool at random.
- The loot might be randomly placed, but its randomness is based off of a 90% return.

So, for example, you might get crappy runs because the loot is calculated to drop 40% of the return on this mob and you just so happened to kill a lot of those '40%' mobs.

The reason globals/aths happen is because the % of the loot pool was randomed to be 500% or 4000% return when the mob is killed.

I think this is why your loot can be random off of 100 ped or 200 ped runs. But when you hunt for 5000 ped or 10000 ped it averages slowly to 90%.

Sorry for my crappy english but you think this could be true? :confused::confused:

No, loot is not already in mob when you start to shoot it, it is generated when you loot it. MA has confirmed this long ago. And we also know regen is somewhat compensated for wich would not be possible if loot amount was predetermined.
 
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