Retention rate

You will see that most of my disciples only completed a few % and in over a year of mentoring only two have passed

There was one guy who grasped everything eco wise and all the maths and concepts in a few days and had made over 200ped in his first week and completed half the shinkibadaikiba iron, all with ZERO deposits.. Needless to say he hasn't logged in over a month...

So why is it so hard to keep players and get them to the point where they are middish level depositor grinders?

If you say it is pointless to discuss this, well I would say that we're screwed longterm unless this problem can be solved anyway so it can't hurt to discuss it again

Thats why i no longer accept disciples, tired of answering questions for hours in a day just to never see them logging in ever again.

Piotr said:

Thats why i no longer accept disciples, tired of answering questions for hours in a day just to never see them logging in ever again.

Click to expand...

Yeah exactly, or in my case, lend them items only to see them never log in again

Rather than saying the "Economy is too challenging", I'ld rather say that the game is too "economically challenged".

But in the end, I choose the closest....that is the "Too slow" one.

Too slow as in there's too slow a movement of goods in between the players who "produce" them onto the hands of the players "who need them".

Not to mention that there is an oversupply or excess of goods that are useless and totally of no use. Or that have been rendered obsolete.

Piotr said:

Thats why i no longer accept disciples, tired of answering questions for hours in a day just to never see them logging in ever again.

Click to expand...

Same here, feels like wasted time.

Because it takes a special kind of person to stick with this game and graduate.

They need to be "hooked" for life. And get a realistic viewpoint of the game. Not lying to them in hopes they will do their first deposit and fill the lootpool, but be generally completely blunt and honest with them day 1, that way you don't waste your time and they don't waste their time.

Sub-Zero said:

Because it takes a special kind of person to stick with this game and graduate.

They need to be "hooked" for life. And get a realistic viewpoint of the game. Not lying to them in hopes they will do their first deposit and fill the lootpool, but be generally completely blunt and honest with them day 1, that way you don't waste your time and they don't waste their time.

Click to expand...

Must spread rep......

It's hard to be blunt when people have their own expectations but as you say it is better to be cruel to be kind as this game has such a steep and unexpected learning curve. I remember when I did my first few hunts and was really surprised that I was getting less loot than the cost of the ammo

Personally, I think that one of the main reasons people come in, try the game, and leave is because those people are expecting it to be a different game.

The ones that quit right off are the type of players who expect everything is going to be extremely fast paced, they can jump right into the fray and buy the biggest, baddest weapon out there, and kill the biggest, baddest creatures out there. These are the people that don't take the time to understand EU, learn how to play, and, above all, realize that this is unlike any game they have ever played.

Frankly, I had not played too many games prior to my introduction to EU. The one that I played the most was Sims Online. What did we do there? We chatted, interacted to a certain degree, went to visit new places, and did the same tasks over and over, every day (we called it skilling... funny thing, eh?). What do we do here in EU? Well, we chat, we interact to a certain degree, we visit new places, and we do the same tasks over and over... and call it skilling. Yes, former Sims Online players are eminently suitable for EU.

Granted, it can, and often does, take a lot of money to play. And don't get me wrong, despite the similarities, EU is FAR different from Sims Online. My point, though, is that EU truly is a niche game, and will only retain those players to have the patience (or a huge bankroll) to advance.

Cost to play is too high for the people coming in.

the most common reason:

there is no reason to play this game.


(UL, any) armor drops that sits between adj pixie and settler is non-existent in loot.
(L) weaponry still drops from daikiba and merp. But Mindark's incentive to improve loot has stopped there and has been partly taken away. (remember colonizer armor from shinkiba)
So there is no "wow"-factor (wow, i just looted a goblin armor part, it looks really cool and green!)
That's the reason your disciples stop. they don't get a "wow". So they stop.

Fragments and oils and bones? WHY?

Kitch said:

Must spread rep......

It's hard to be blunt when people have their own expectations but as you say it is better to be cruel to be kind as this game has such a steep and unexpected learning curve. I remember when I did my first few hunts and was really surprised that I was getting less loot than the cost of the ammo

Click to expand...

I think this is one of the biggest reasons why new players stop playing. They take their precious 3 or 5 peds, go for a hunt and lose more than half of it. If I try hard I can remember when I started playing, spent a few peds on ammo, a few peds on rookie mining and had rubbish returns. So naturally I thought loot was just complete rubbish and there was no point to hunting, mining, or crafting.

Most new players have no understanding that loot returns are really bad until they max their first weapon, and that if they cycle enough to kill a few hundred mobs they'll get a decent loot return. This basic info is not provided to new players via the starter missions on any planet that I'm aware of. If this could be overcome I think we'd see higher retention.

One way to do it would be provide them with a starter weapon (max dmg 3) that is maxed at level 0. Then provide a way for them to cycle through a few hundred mobs or a few hundred rookie mining drops without an initial investment. The starter pack does this by providing universal ammo which can't be TT'd, but they still provide an unmaxed weapon, and of course requires the player to make an initial investment.

EU is a hard game to start, requiring either a fairly large investment (for a game) or unlimited patience. I believe player retention is best when the player can get involved quickly and have consistent work in game. For example, what I do, Greenleaf Mining Company, provides players with more or less unlimited play for a $20 "investment". Unfortunately I can't hire very many due to my own limited time and ped reserve. There are some things mindark could do that would help create more "work" for brand new players.

One of my favorite ideas for newbie participation. Miners hate digging up claims (there's nothing positive to it except the hp increase). So why not allow miners to create a team composed of one miner and multiple diggers: team members could dig up their claims for them. Have team settings just like for hunting so you can set who receives the minerals, if the digger receives a number of peds for each claim dug etc, lots of possibilities for automatic compensation to diggers. Provide a team map showing all claims with timers and icons for current positions of other diggers. Now your heavy duty miners can make a run in much less time with their army of drillers. It gives an opportunity for new players to participate in the game, see how loot works without spending their own peds, and make a few peds for their work as well. To have an effect on retention rate, it would take (I expect) a relatively small amount of work from Mindark, and let the players do the rest.

Maybe the reason for low graduation rate is because a lot of the new people who will actually stay and play EU are the kind who don't want or need a mentor?

Rugged individualists.

Id say the bad retention probably not any higher than a few years ago ie 30% is due to bad game design or at least game design can be improved a lot, there is no real feel for progression and also the quests has no real progression like in most other mmo's some of the quests you just never see or get guided too in a proper way and also the game is a bit to economically challenging.

Piotr said:

Thats why i no longer accept disciples, tired of answering questions for hours in a day just to never see them logging in ever again.

Click to expand...

yup,exactly why i stopped also

To MA I say, protect virtual investments and the big money will come. Destroy confidence = low deposits

Not sure what to choose, many options are part of the real answer but none are fully. Coz mostly nailed it, those who quit early just expected totally different game (and those who quit later on are just failed gamblers or got busy with something else). Not much wrong with the game itself, it has its flaws but if you like the concept, you'll endure.

And this is true, too:

Dab said:

Maybe the reason for low graduation rate is because a lot of the new people who will actually stay and play EU are the kind who don't want or need a mentor?

Rugged individualists.

Click to expand...

The people who are most mentally compatible with this game don't need mentors, they're explorers, experimenters (hey, who said "masochists"??!). I never even considered having a mentor, the idea of asking for help is alien to me, I like to help, not be helped, if I failed - it's my own fault, if I succeed - it's my own merit. Hell, I never even ask for directions in RL

Game play is too slow, repetitive, and isn't fun.

Spawning noobs in a major population center like Camp Icarus helps but more needs to be done.

There needs to be drama, there needs to be a challenge.

When I started EU, the trip to the oil rig was an epic journey from which some people were never heard from again... Only the brave dared attempt it.

Today, getting to the noob oil rig is easy, anyone can do it, and once you arrive you quickly learn that it's nothing more than a welfare line with the occasional ass, such as myself, coming through for an easy PK hof.

Remember that the player base has changed the last 10 years .

Pc games is falling behind among common people . Now we have hardcore gamers grown up with games and adrenaline kicks coming for a look, or kids that play 100 diff games everyday , they dont stick to a game that takes years to skill

This game can never be what it was like 10 years ago .so lets move on and adjust .

Earth revolves and people change

It's boring for new comers. I told a disciple we should go exploring, get some tps. On foot he'd get bored in like 5 minutes, with VTOL even faster...I used to spend 2 hours of running alone to get a tp but the new people aren't used to grinding...they get bored of hunting, they get bored of mining, they get bored of crafting. Got nothing exciting to show most of them...Very few stick around.

Old games made you grind and grind and grind. New games are like michael bay movies. I know it's totally different but I have to compare a very old popular game: Diablo 2 with rather new popular game: Skyrim. Diablo 2 people know how to grind. Skyrim generation wants to ride dragons...

basicly what i noticed the last 2 years from my disciples i got. ohh i played WOW and i made xxxxxxxxx gold so its gonna be piss easy here. 2 days later bahh its so hard and slow /quit.

then there's the EVE online players at least those are kinda used to high learning curve and a few them stay if you explain a few things.

my rules for mentoring are:

go find players of your skill level and that wanna play with you. ( unless you like hanging with newbies , not something i like )
read read read
ask the soc your in if you have questions.
and my first and only golden rule : BE PATIENT, nothing is going quick in entropia. it takes years not weeks. < this is something i say to every new player and often multible times.

i'm not going todo the work for them. if they have questions they can ask but alot of times i link them to websites to get there info. just because they need to learn that most info is allready there. they just need to learn to find it.

When I read these comments - which have been great - I have to think and compare to other MMOs or games that I have played. This is the only way I can think of it to say "why does that game work and this doesn't" type of idea. No big answer comes to mind.
I play Minecraft - which is very popular. People stay there because : it's free (once you buy a copy for $20 or something) constant development of VUs and conent - with EXTENSIVE release notes and bug report/fixes, somewhat simplistic learning curve, and variety of user plugins - mods.
I play Lord of the Rings online and that has free weekly "samples" of things you can buy in game, ways to earn points that allows you to "buy" more content, frequent company sponsored events where you can earn items/emotes/clothes, vast quest system and integrated storyline.
When I first played EU I found it very interesting and really liked it. I also found it very complicated, difficult, and had a big learning curve. What saved me was the community - help and guidance. I think a lot of the initial hardships have been addressed well by MA, with tutorials, mentorships, etc.
I voted about the economy because most of life boils down to money. I often want to walk away because I look at it and say... why do I spend $200 + a month on a VIDEO GAME. I could be buying a PS4 and bunch of games every month with the money I spend - but I choose to play just this one game.
I gave up with mentorship for the same reason - too many questions and time spent then people just gone.

I cannot offer a great reason, I just know there are 1 million games out there and who knows how many people try 1000 of them before they find a couple they really like. I played WoW and it didn't take me long to feel like there was no point and I gave up. I can't even say what got me hooked on EU other than I'm an addictive person and liked to gamble!! (shhh don't tell MA)

There are people who just can't afford to play this type of game who don't realize it until around 17% into discipleship and in addition, also don't have the desire or mental aptitude it takes to go the "play for free" route.

A question to the op:

What was the highest global that your disciples got?


Game is RCE. This means that money is every thing here. If you play for three months and kill a lot of mobs but these only give you a maximum loot of 10 ped. What is the point in continue?

when I get a disciple and they go/quit/ leave the game. some of them log in and I ask whats up....


some have said, their first 96 ped of hunting turned into 40 ped, then they cycled that and continue to lose all of it..

some did mining, which tended to be better from MU, but it still went like 80% return of 80% return ect with 109% MU or something.. however I have had 1 good mining disciple that also graduated from it.(he got a hof in his first 200 ped spent) of like 900ped.

and i tell everyone to not craft, ive had 1 disciple big into crafting, and graduated, one that lost it all in crafting and quit.

basically, what I gather, small new people with 1 deposit, quit, because, well, its impossible to even sustain at small levels.

also... most hunt so here is an example, when puny mobs... 10 hp, only provide an average of 60% returns, its not good, now this might be due to overkill because they don't offer any small UL guns, at least not in all places, but for 10hp... guns should be shooting 1-2 or 1.5-3 hp.... but we don't have any UL guns that do that small damage for them...also... puny give the highest amount of nova/frags, which is horrible, on top of that, you can get a streak of no looters, my personal record is 19 in a row... I get 7 in a row all the time... how is that supposed to look?


anyways, I always recommend to not kill anything below 30 hp with a small gun to anyone I talk to that is starting out.... puny mobs...10 hp... lets just say for eco, it costs... 3.2 pec per kill, with overkill, kill cost is normally 4-6pec. puny mobs generally only give 1-2 pec per kill... right off the bat, that simply doesn't work.

that's why I think new people don't stay. they think this is a small mob, I should be killing it, but with over sized guns, no ped and mathematically bad kills, its almost made to fail.


personally ive never had a good return on anything below 50hp, but some people will spend weeks on puny mobs...

sorry to be kind of ranting, I don't mean to, but for retention, noob things need to be relooked at.
.....also.... the intro into this game, like the tutorials... that u must complete should be like 1-2 days long, some planets, you can completely skip them or I think doesn't even have one.....basically how it is now, even if u complete lets say calys... you giving probes, a gun ect, kill 5 monsters, mine 5 things, and do errands... you barely learn the game in my opinion.

This explains one of the reasons why the player retention rate sucks in this game.
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-Skills-going-up-so-slowly-now-Is-that-normal
When a player reaches a certain lvl they get scared away or get bored and leave. Each player has that lvl and each lvl is different depending on the person.

What would help the player retention rate is if this game wasn't so boring and not so costly to play at higher lvl.

This gap from low lvl to medium level is huge and scares most people away. Those that stick with it are hardcore, but if you guys want to improve the player retention rate, then something must change.

Overall more fun, less costly = improved player retention rate.

The only reason I play this game is because of the RCE aspect, if it didn't exist I would never play it, since its too boring.

It could be cuz I've been playing it for 8 years though. But even younger players do get bored after a while..

I've finished some small missions of late, it's not difficult to see why the retention rate is so low. Absolutely nothing of interest is looted. When I first played, you could easily loot a full set of vigilante or gremlin armor from small mobs. Before I played, the same mobs - be it umbra, molisk, longu, warrior - dropped uber items. The loot on small mobs needs to be more interesting to retain players.

Sub-Zero said:

...
Overall more fun, less costly = improved player retention rate.

The only reason I play this game is because of the RCE aspect, if it didn't exist I would never play it, since its too boring.

It could be cuz I've been playing it for 8 years though. But even younger players do get bored after a while..

Click to expand...

sachi.mk2 said:

...
The loot on small mobs needs to be more interesting to retain players.

Click to expand...

These two replies resume it all.

Before 2013 we had cool items dropping from low mobs (i still remember the first time I looted pixie gloves from a snable in 2008) and good size HOFs from mobs like molisks, cornundas, longus, argos etc.

Then on January of 2013 Mindark thought that by lowering all the maximum loots for almost every thing in the game would make ppl to go hunt bigger or craft bigger or use bigger amps. On the next VU they even lowered global threshold for a lot of mobs, because global chat was more boring than ever! (hours on end without see a player getting a 300 ped HOF)

What we have now is the result of those changes. Game is more boring than never, volatility of peds is the same if not higher because the big HOF from low-med mobs don't exist anymore. And the worst part is if you want to have the same fun as before, you will need to spend at least 2x the ped that you were used to.

Just as example I used to have tons of fun mining FOMA with lvl 2/3 amps. Go there now with those kind of amps and check how damn boring it is!

Mindark thought that they could make the game more stable, like all the others RPGs out there. The thing is that the other RPGs aren't Real Cash Economy. Entropia is unique don't try to make it look like other games please!

This really isn't an issue since we just have a lot of new users wanting to take a look at this game who of course find a mentor but soon may leave just because they find it's not a free-to-play type game and what not. So yes, we will see a large user base who just seems to never want to finish their mentoring.

Is anything wrong? No. What would look very wrong here is if your mentor list was very small of only 4 or less users showing not all that many new users are coming to even try the game. So yes, the bigger your list the better.

OZtwo said:

This really isn't an issue since we just have a lot of new users wanting to take a look at this game who of course find a mentor but soon may leave just because they find it's not a free-to-play type game and what not. So yes, we will see a large user base who just seems to never want to finish their mentoring.

Is anything wrong? No. What would look very wrong here is if your mentor list was very small of only 4 or less users showing not all that many new users are coming to even try the game. So yes, the bigger your list the better.

Click to expand...

But the issue is attrition. Maybe something isn't necessarily 'wrong', but some thing(s) is/are definitely lacking and improvements to the game/user experience could increase the player-base.

In my opinion increasing the player-base in this game would be a net positive for the community, MA, and our PED cards as a whole.

MsPudding said:

In my opinion increasing the player-base in this game would be a net positive for the community, MA, and our PED cards as a whole.

Click to expand...

I think its an absolute necessity, the hole PP concept and most of the "Investment opportunities" are built on the assumption that the player base will grow as the universe grows. So with out that support it will collapse.

Fanan said:

A question to the op:

What was the highest global that your disciples got?

Click to expand...

Well they have all had their own differing experiences... There was one guy who did graduate who I sent to Ark to mine for Neil and he was getting awful returns and getting seriously depressed but I kept telling him the hof would come and it did so he ended up > 95% but he seems to have quit not long after graduating.

Another guy was doing well on shinkiba having small globals but I guess that wasn't exciting enough so he quit.

I think the overall consensus is that its either too boring or too overwhelming (time/money) and those are the main two reasons